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Egwene/the Aes Sedai


Luckers
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As readers I don't think most of us were on the edge of our seats wondering if Nynaeve would survive the testing.

 

That because the Light-side main characters cannot die, more than the feeling that Nyn is to skilled to fail.

 

Yeah but that's your opinion and one that I simply don't agree with.

 

Nynaeve is obviously skilled, much more skilled at this point than many other Aes Sedai that have passed that test. I mean ask yourself this simple question, how many Aes Sedai or just women that can channel in general have been described as being able to see a complex weave once and have the ability to reproduce it immediately? Not even Egwene is able to do this nor Elayne at first, even many of the skilled healers have to be taught repeatedly by Nynaeve to learn the new weaves for Healing. Anyone can say its because the main characters cannot die, I choose to see that there are supporting facts that back up why their death really wouldn't make any sense from a logical point of view whether they are main characters or not.

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Yeah but that's your opinion and one that I simply don't agree with.

 

Nynaeve is obviously skilled, much more skilled at this point than many other Aes Sedai that have passed that test. I mean ask yourself this simple question, how many Aes Sedai or just women that can channel in general have been described as being able to see a complex weave once and have the ability to reproduce it immediately? Not even Egwene is able to do this nor Elayne at first, even many of the skilled healers have to be taught repeatedly by Nynaeve to learn the new weaves for Healing. Anyone can say its because the main characters cannot die, I choose to see that there are supporting facts that back up why their death really wouldn't make any sense from a logical point of view whether they are main characters or not.

 

Performing the hundred weaves is only half of the test though. The other half involves displaying a willingness to obey Tower orders no matter what the circumstances or what sacrifices are asked. Nynaeve might pass the first half easily but, as she proved, the second was more of a stretch. If she hadn't been able to save Lan and complete the final part of her trial, would she have failed the test and died inside the ter'angreal?

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man it took me a while to catch up.

it seems that we have agreed to disagree on a lot of different decisions that Egwene makes.

I'm happy that we r handling it like adults.

 

back to the topic.

 

Egwene, in my opinion, should take the test at some point. why? because i feel she must.

my problem is this. once she stops being Amyrlin at some point while she is alive, does that make her Accepted again?

then she would have to take the test, if it is still in affect, and ask an Ajah for her to join.

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usually i get mix feelings when it comes to Egwene.

 

i think she has her moments of epic awesomeness, and she is certainly capable at thinking ahead and being good for the WT and instating change in an institution that was clearly in need of reforming, and i believe that she has yet to go to change WT and Aes Sedai starting with the Red Ajah's purpose, etc

 

but she also annoys me sometimes, sometimes less than other characters, sometimes more than others, in my opinion it is subjective here. for instance, i dont like her treatment of Nynaeve in some of the books. p.s. Nynaeve is my favourite female character, so i am biased here.

 

but to get back to the main topic, egwene as amyrlin is bringing some well needed change in the WT, she has a lot of work to do yet, but egwene as a person, has her flaws, when she interacts with her friends and her lover etc but then who hasn't?

 

and that is my take on the egwene/aes sedai :p

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No I don't care to explain it. I don't see what the problem is. How many Aes Sedai has she made swear to her since both sides reunited? Zero. Not very good at being power hungry since she has stopped. She needed people she felt she could trust. As I said, you should debate how she decides to do things she's actually trying to do. Using this to prove she's the next Artur Hawkwing is ridiculous.

 

Yes it does inclue the bind with lace, I specifically added that because I know you still don't understand that scene, "they agree to her plans". Binding together is not a necessarily a bad thing, particularly when they want to be bound. lace is frilly, not strong enough to actually hold anyone. So to be bound with lace is to want to stay bound, to be content in the relationship. Egwene does not want the other channeling women to become reclusive again so she must bind them together for the benefit of them all, and she will do it by making them partnerships they will not refuse, like channeler exchange program.

So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there.

 

I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead.

 

Maybe you don't understand power hungry... or what the Amyrlin is. You understand that the Aes Sedai is a parliamentary institution? So Egwene needs to raise things with the hall and people need to vote for them. Also, other sisters could raise things counter to what she wants, and they could vote for them. So if she were power hungry, if she wanted to skirt the system and ensure she always got her way, which someone who is truly power hungry would do, she would continue to gather loyal or sworn people to never vote against her. She has not.

 

What manipulation?! Of course it helps the tower. She won't offer things that hurt the tower. This is how treaties work. You make deals that should help all parties. And the other channelers agreed to it. They agreed. She did not blackmail or strongarm them. They agreed to a cogent point about how it would benefit them all. And so they are bound together by a mutually amenable treaty. Where is the manipulation?

 

I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used.

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No I don't care to explain it. I don't see what the problem is. How many Aes Sedai has she made swear to her since both sides reunited? Zero. Not very good at being power hungry since she has stopped. She needed people she felt she could trust. As I said, you should debate how she decides to do things she's actually trying to do. Using this to prove she's the next Artur Hawkwing is ridiculous.

 

Yes it does inclue the bind with lace, I specifically added that because I know you still don't understand that scene, "they agree to her plans". Binding together is not a necessarily a bad thing, particularly when they want to be bound. lace is frilly, not strong enough to actually hold anyone. So to be bound with lace is to want to stay bound, to be content in the relationship. Egwene does not want the other channeling women to become reclusive again so she must bind them together for the benefit of them all, and she will do it by making them partnerships they will not refuse, like channeler exchange program.

So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there.

 

I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead.

 

Maybe you don't understand power hungry... or what the Amyrlin is. You understand that the Aes Sedai is a parliamentary institution? So Egwene needs to raise things with the hall and people need to vote for them. Also, other sisters could raise things counter to what she wants, and they could vote for them. So if she were power hungry, if she wanted to skirt the system and ensure she always got her way, which someone who is truly power hungry would do, she would continue to gather loyal or sworn people to never vote against her. She has not.

 

What manipulation?! Of course it helps the tower. She won't offer things that hurt the tower. This is how treaties work. You make deals that should help all parties. And the other channelers agreed to it. They agreed. She did not blackmail or strongarm them. They agreed to a cogent point about how it would benefit them all. And so they are bound together by a mutually amenable treaty. Where is the manipulation?

 

I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used.

 

 

She didn't strongarmed them? Hmmm, maybe I read that part differently.

Firstly, she put everybody in danger, especially the AM that had no real strength in the dream world.

Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

Later on, she does the same with a BA. She thinks that she is an idiot and it happens, because Egwene is much more powerful in the Dream World.

It was a douche move to use it on a future ally in what supposed to be a fair bargain, but she's an AS, so there is an unspoken law that they have to gain power for the WT by any means necessary, even if it means walk over some rules of conduct or use dream word compulsion to have your way.

 

And not to mention the Wo and her 'chains of lace'. Of course I will not lie you openly, I will do it covertly. So much for respect for the WO. The thing that really gets me is that she really believes she's not doing anything wrong.

 

She really is a perfect AS/Amyrlin.

 

And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well.

Since they don't know there are 150+ members of the WT that are serving the DO, they will be forced by the rules of conduct toward the AS to received them in private if they require it. So they could decapitate the entire leadership of the armies of the light, kings, lords and generals alike, only because the AS are to proud to say to everybody else that they were breached by the darkfriends.

 

So their pride can plunge every single country in total anarchy/chaos, days before the Final Battle, only because admitting the existence of the BA will weaken their status as leaders of the world. The leaders will begin to question their allegiance, and they will require that the AS submit to their decisions rather the other way around. Which is not such a bad thing, since the AS are supposed to be the servants of all.

 

 

Another point is the Trolloc massive invasion of the borderlands.

“Your expression is grim,” Egwene noted.

“The invasion has begun,” she said. “Watchtowers across the Blightborder go silent, one at a time.

Waves of Trollocs advance beneath clouds that boil black. Kandor, Arafel and Saldaea are at war.”

And what does the Amyrlin does? Nothing. She's just happy that she managed to use the spies of the Blue Ajah, consolidating her hold of the Ajahs.

Silviana nodded curtly. She didn’t say the obvious—that the Blue network was the Blue Ajah’s, not to

be preempted by the Amyrlin. Well, the Last Battle was at hand. Some concessions had to be made.

 

The WT should be the first line of defense against the Blight. She should have sent an AS contingent to deal with those problems. THe only guys fighting there are the Asha'Man and Ithrulade's soldiers, sent there by Rand.

 

And the Watcher of the Seals part from the Amyrlin's title gets me every single time. I just can't stop laughing. They had to wait 3000 years for Rand&co to show them how a seal should look like :)

 

 

Ohhh, and their view on the Ashaman problem after the taint has been cleansed is also funny as well.

AS: Mother, the taint has been cleansed. Also, the 50 AS sent to kill the Asha'Man were captured. Since Rand is such a good guy, he forbid Taim&co to kill or still them, so some Asha'Man bonded the sister to keep them from being stilled.

Egwene: What??? They are treated no better than a bunch of damane? They have no right to do so. It's completely inhumane.

AS: But what do intend to do with these Asha'Man, not that we can't kill them anymore?

Egwene: Why, bond them and treat them as damane, of course. What a silly question.

 

There is a little bias in that Ivory Tower of theirs.

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No I don't care to explain it. I don't see what the problem is. How many Aes Sedai has she made swear to her since both sides reunited? Zero. Not very good at being power hungry since she has stopped. She needed people she felt she could trust. As I said, you should debate how she decides to do things she's actually trying to do. Using this to prove she's the next Artur Hawkwing is ridiculous.

 

Yes it does inclue the bind with lace, I specifically added that because I know you still don't understand that scene, "they agree to her plans". Binding together is not a necessarily a bad thing, particularly when they want to be bound. lace is frilly, not strong enough to actually hold anyone. So to be bound with lace is to want to stay bound, to be content in the relationship. Egwene does not want the other channeling women to become reclusive again so she must bind them together for the benefit of them all, and she will do it by making them partnerships they will not refuse, like channeler exchange program.

So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there.

 

I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead.

 

Maybe you don't understand power hungry... or what the Amyrlin is. You understand that the Aes Sedai is a parliamentary institution? So Egwene needs to raise things with the hall and people need to vote for them. Also, other sisters could raise things counter to what she wants, and they could vote for them. So if she were power hungry, if she wanted to skirt the system and ensure she always got her way, which someone who is truly power hungry would do, she would continue to gather loyal or sworn people to never vote against her. She has not.

 

What manipulation?! Of course it helps the tower. She won't offer things that hurt the tower. This is how treaties work. You make deals that should help all parties. And the other channelers agreed to it. They agreed. She did not blackmail or strongarm them. They agreed to a cogent point about how it would benefit them all. And so they are bound together by a mutually amenable treaty. Where is the manipulation?

 

I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used.

...yes, I'M the one that doesn't understand what power-hungry means.She also didn't manipulate them because they agreed to it.Makes perfect sense really.Then again, maybe it's just plain denial on your part.

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Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

That's not mind control, that's Egwene keeping a calm and resolute expression and showing Shielin that her offer is serious.

 

I don't get what's wrong with the deals she offered the WO and the Windfinders. It was negotiating, nobody was threatened or bullied in any way into agreeing, both sides should benefit from those deals. The "tie with lace" comment I interpret that Egwene intends to make the relationship between the WO and the Tower beneficial enough for the WO that they won't have a reason to break it in. Again nothing wrong with that.

 

P.S. What's wrong with me, I keep defending Egwene in these threads half the time... :biggrin:

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Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

That's not mind control, that's Egwene keeping a calm and resolute expression and showing Shielin that her offer is serious.

 

I don't get what's wrong with the deals she offered the WO and the Windfinders. It was negotiating, nobody was threatened or bullied in any way into agreeing, both sides should benefit from those deals. The "tie with lace" comment I interpret that Egwene intends to make the relationship between the WO and the Tower beneficial enough for the WO that they won't have a reason to break it in. Again nothing wrong with that.

 

P.S. What's wrong with me, I keep defending Egwene in these threads half the time... :biggrin:

 

 

I don't think that is conscious, but she is controlling her. A stronger dreamwalker can control someone in the dream world. And she is doing just that. Is like changing a dress, or like Perrin blocking balefire. He wishes something, and it happens. The deal is not such a bad one, although she hopes soon everyone will be tied up to the WT, with the WT in control of all channellers.

But conscious or not, she is wishing something something, and that thing happens, in this case the AM agreeing to cancel a bargain and make one which is very good for Egwene, but not for them. She should receive 20 full AS teachers, but agrees to get 2 Accepted and also send two powerful windfinder novices in return(with an increase in the future), only because Egwene wished it to be so. It's mind control pure and simple. Or distorting the TAR to her wishes, whatever you want to call it.

Egwene also gives them weak rings for entering the dream world, hording the best for the WT. I'm not saying she has to give them everything now, but at least put everything on the table and use the real word for these meetings.

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Play. Nice.

I respond to snide comments with sarcasm.Sorry if I was being too snappy but comments like "

I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used." tend to come out as outright trolling to me.

Edited by Zentari
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That's not mind control, that's Egwene keeping a calm and resolute expression and showing Shielin that her offer is serious.

 

 

But that's how TaR works. You have to really believe...

 

Not that Egwene did anything wrong in that bargain. She was pretty straight forward, and that was a scene where I liked her. But I still think that counts as manipulating, right as it might have been.

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Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

That's not mind control, that's Egwene keeping a calm and resolute expression and showing Shielin that her offer is serious.

 

I don't get what's wrong with the deals she offered the WO and the Windfinders. It was negotiating, nobody was threatened or bullied in any way into agreeing, both sides should benefit from those deals. The "tie with lace" comment I interpret that Egwene intends to make the relationship between the WO and the Tower beneficial enough for the WO that they won't have a reason to break it in. Again nothing wrong with that.

 

P.S. What's wrong with me, I keep defending Egwene in these threads half the time... :biggrin:

 

 

I don't think that is conscious, but she is controlling her. A stronger dreamwalker can control someone in the dream world. And she is doing just that. Is like changing a dress, or like Perrin blocking balefire. He wishes something, and it happens. The deal is not such a bad one, although she hopes soon everyone will be tied up to the WT, with the WT in control of all channellers.

But conscious or not, she is wishing something something, and that thing happens, in this case the AM agreeing to cancel a bargain and make one which is very good for Egwene, but not for them. She should receive 20 full AS teachers, but agrees to get 2 Accepted and also send two powerful windfinder novices in return(with an increase in the future), only because Egwene wished it to be so. It's mind control pure and simple. Or distorting the TAR to her wishes, whatever you want to call it.

Egwene also gives them weak rings for entering the dream world, hording the best for the WT. I'm not saying she has to give them everything now, but at least put everything on the table and use the real word for these meetings.

 

It was not mind control in the slightest, anymore than anyone who is putting on a "poker face" controls the people they are playing against. There were no special powers used in this scene. Maybe you don't understand the terms of the bargain. In this new bargain each group exchanges 2 for 2 apprentices(the future increase applies to all groups, as does the powerful and most promising clause), any Sea Folk currently in the WT are free to leave if they desire, and ter'angreal are now property of all three channeling groups not just AS. The deal is fair and will foster long term understanding and change between the groups. The balance of power has clearly shifted and they will now be working together. While I am sure all three will still be jockeying for power this is a far better deal in the long run than having 20 disgruntled AS for a short duration who don't want to be serving out the term of a bargain. It is just so strange to me how people take something so obviously positive in Eggy changing the WT and try to distort it into her once again doing something wrong.

 

As for the second part of your earlier post in Egwene's reaction to the borderlands being invaded. Funny how you edited out the reason why Egwene coopted the Blue Network. She wasn't trying to rest control for her own purposes. If you had provided the whole quote it is clear she was solely setting them to the purpose of finding out what was going on in the Borderlands nothing more. The first step in fighting a war is gathering intelligence and that is what she was doing here. The Last Battle is at hand, she needs to know what is happening in the Borderlands in order to figure out what to do, it wasn't some secret plot to further consolidate her power over Ajahs. Not to mention Siuan is her closest confidant. Why would she possibly need to force more power over the Blues?

What the quote actually says is...

 

ToM "A Call to Stand"

 

Egwene took a deep breath. "What of Tarwin's Gap?"

"I don't know"

"Find out. Call Siuan in here. She might have more. The Blue Network is the most extensive." Siuan wouldn't know everything, of course, but she would have her fingers in it.

Silviana nodded curtly. She didn’t say the obvious—that the Blue network was the Blue Ajah’s, not to be preempted by the Amyrlin. Well, the Last Battle was at hand. Some concessions had to be made.

Edited by Suttree
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Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

That's not mind control, that's Egwene keeping a calm and resolute expression and showing Shielin that her offer is serious.

 

I don't get what's wrong with the deals she offered the WO and the Windfinders. It was negotiating, nobody was threatened or bullied in any way into agreeing, both sides should benefit from those deals. The "tie with lace" comment I interpret that Egwene intends to make the relationship between the WO and the Tower beneficial enough for the WO that they won't have a reason to break it in. Again nothing wrong with that.

 

P.S. What's wrong with me, I keep defending Egwene in these threads half the time... :biggrin:

 

 

I don't think that is conscious, but she is controlling her. A stronger dreamwalker can control someone in the dream world. And she is doing just that. Is like changing a dress, or like Perrin blocking balefire. He wishes something, and it happens. The deal is not such a bad one, although she hopes soon everyone will be tied up to the WT, with the WT in control of all channellers.

But conscious or not, she is wishing something something, and that thing happens, in this case the AM agreeing to cancel a bargain and make one which is very good for Egwene, but not for them. She should receive 20 full AS teachers, but agrees to get 2 Accepted and also send two powerful windfinder novices in return(with an increase in the future), only because Egwene wished it to be so. It's mind control pure and simple. Or distorting the TAR to her wishes, whatever you want to call it.

Egwene also gives them weak rings for entering the dream world, hording the best for the WT. I'm not saying she has to give them everything now, but at least put everything on the table and use the real word for these meetings.

 

It was not mind control in the slightest, anymore than anyone who is putting on a "poker face" controls the people they are playing against. There were no special powers used in this scene. Maybe you don't understand the terms of the bargain. In this new bargain each group exchanges 2 for 2 apprentices(the future increase applies to all groups, as does the powerful and most promising clause), any Sea Folk currently in the WT are free to leave if they desire, and ter'angreal are now property of all three channeling groups not just AS. The deal is fair and will foster long term understanding and change between the groups. The balance of power has clearly shifted and they will now be working together. While I am sure all three will still be jockeying for power this is a far better deal in the long run than having 20 disgruntled AS for a short duration who don't want to be serving out the term of a bargain. It is just so strange to me how people take something so obviously positive in Eggy changing the WT and try to distort it into her once again doing something wrong.

 

As for the second part of your earlier post in Egwene's reaction to the borderlands being invaded. Funny how you edited out the reason why Egwene coopted the Blue Network. She wasn't trying to rest control for her own purposes. If you had provided the whole quote it is clear she was solely setting them to the purpose of finding out what was going on in the Borderlands nothing more. The first step in fighting a war is gathering intelligence and that is what she was doing here. It wasn't some secret plot to further consolidate her power over Ajahs.

 

 

Let's start with the Borderlanders. Trying to take over the spy network is quite good. But the fact that the Borderlands are overrun with Trollock in numbers close to those during the Trolloc Wars 2000 years ago should make her send some troops/AS to fight them.

That is the only purpose of the WT and AS: to fight the Shadow and it's soldiers. THey take tribute from all the countries in exchange for counsel and protection against Shadowspawn. She doesn't sent not even one AS to check out the BL to have a clearer view of the situation, although since they have Traveling they can do that in minutes/hours.

Furthermore, she tries to take all troops from the rest of the countries and mass them in one single location, without considering the fact that if the Borderlands fall, those unprotected cities will be overrun with Trollocs.

And with weeks before the DO will escape by himself, I din't saw the WT plan to seal the Bore. Since she is totally against Rand's plan(which can be improved and worked the first time even without saidar), I'm guessing she has a better plan to seal the Bore.

Can someone point me to the chapter in which she explain what she and the AS intend to do to seal the Bore?!?

 

 

And about the 'mental suggestions' she does to the AM. I have several close enough examples that proves without a doubt that she influenced Shielyn in changing her mind and actually change a bargain already made...a thing unheard of before.

 

But first, some facts about TaR:

-Egwene is a Dreamer, so she is extremely powerful in the Dream World

-people can influence other people less trained in TaR

-the windfinders had no training

-Egwene was already powerful

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm. See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

 

This part could easily be erased completely if it meant nothing.

And the word she uses are comands. She could say something like "I hope she'll buy my BS" or "PLease...". And the last two phrases are a dead give away: See that I'm AS...that I'm telling the truth...

Willingly or not, she is influencing the AM's thoughts.

 

Someone appeared in the room with her. The newcomer wore black, a magnificent gown with silver

trim. Darkness swirled about her, made of spinning ribbons of cloth, her skirt rippling. The effect was

unnatural and impressive; possible only here in Tel’aran’rhiod .

Egwene looked into the woman’s eyes. Large and blue, set in an angular face with chin-length black

hair. There was a power to those eyes, and Egwene immediately knew what she was facing. Why fight?

She couldn’t—

Egwene felt her mind change, become accepting. She fought it with a burst of panic, and in a moment of

clarity, she sent herself away.

Egwene appeared in her rooms, then raised her hand to her head, sitting down on the bed. Light, but

that woman had been strong.

Here Mesanna is using the same trick on her, and although she is very powerfol in TaR, she barely escapes. The AM windfinder din't stood a chance against Egwene and her Talent.

 

Those will not hit me,Egwene thought, confident. The White Tower was hers. Mesaana and her minions

had invaded, killing Nicola, Shevan and Carlinya.

Weaves shot forward, but they bent around Egwene

-she thinks something, and that thing happens. Just as the the mental commands she uses with Shielyn.

 

Egwene felt something press against her, as it had before. Mesaana’s will,

demanding her subservience, her supplication. An attempt to useTel’aran’rhiod to change the very way

that Egwene thought.

 

 

I rest my case.

 

I have nothing against the bargain with the AM and the WO...it is a good one, and in the distant future maybe it will lead to a stronger alliance or even a merger, but they should use the real world for these meetings, especially since everybody has Traveling and they can arrange a meeting anywhere in the world in a matter of hours.

In the Dream World, Egwene can influence others even without wanting to do it. Everybody wishes to strike the best deal for his side, but in a place where all your wishes actually come true, it's a little unfair for the other side.

The only way to make someone change his mind like that in the real world is by being Ta'veren or using Compulsion, which if I remember correctly is forbidden.

Edited by Aiel Blademaster
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Nynaeve might pass the first half easily but, as she proved, the second was more of a stretch. If she hadn't been able to save Lan and complete the final part of her trial, would she have failed the test and died inside the ter'angreal?

 

Really wouldn't have made sense for her to fail this part either since she had already faced those divided loyalties feelings in her test for becoming Accepted. Not to mention that when she passes the test for becoming Accepted she was amazingly immature and close minded compared to when she is taking the test for becoming full Aes Sedai yet still manages to overcome. Everyone has their own perspective but to me making it the stretch it was for her to pass really had more to do with Nynaeve being more aware and understanding in using the world of dreams although i recognize she still has some childish qualities at that point they are no more than those that many other Aes Sedai have displayed throughout the series.

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Nynaeve might pass the first half easily but, as she proved, the second was more of a stretch. If she hadn't been able to save Lan and complete the final part of her trial, would she have failed the test and died inside the ter'angreal?

 

Really wouldn't have made sense for her to fail this part either since she had already faced those divided loyalties feelings in her test for becoming Accepted.

With her last ounce of strength, she wove balefire and aimed it directly downward in front of them. The ground undulated in agony, almost like a living thing. The earth split nearby, Darkhounds tumbling in. Nynaeve collapsed, the One Power slipping from her. She was too tired to channel.

Lan grabbed her arm. "We must go!"

She hauled herself to her feet, taking his hand.

You don't think that was a close call? And the last test was created by Egwene herself, who should have known Nynaeve would 1) be near exhaustion at the end, 2) never leave Lan behind even if it meant dying herself. There's really no excuse for risking Nynaeve's life just to score points with Romanda and Lelaine.

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Not sure what you mean by there aren't any AS to assess the situation in the BLs? As we know each ruler has at least one(in most cases multiple) AS advisors. tPoD prologue details which went with the rulers and which were left behind. Those already stationed there and the Blue Network she sets to the task are more than able to assess the situation. Regardless this has been discussed in detail in other threads.

 

 

Can someone point me to the chapter in which she explain what she and the AS intend to do to seal the Bore?!?

 

Can you point me in the direction where Rand explains how he intends to seal the bore? Oh wait...

ToM

"I need you Min."

"You have me. Stupid looby"

"Callandor," he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

As for LTT's plan to seal the bore, Rand says he can't do it the same way and RJ himself said it was faulty. Had Saidar been involved it would have been tainted as well. The world would already be finished in that scenario so yeah, we cant say it worked all that well can we.

 

I have nothing against the bargain with the AM and the WO...it is a good one, and in the distant future maybe it will lead to a stronger alliance or even a merger, but they should use the real world for these meetings, especially since everybody has Traveling and they can arrange a meeting anywhere in the world in a matter of hours.

In the Dream World, Egwene can influence others even without wanting to do it. Everybody wishes to strike the best deal for his side, but in a place where all your wishes actually come true, it's a little unfair for the other side.

The only way to make someone change his mind like that in the real world is by being Ta'veren or using Compulsion, which if I remember correctly is forbidden.

 

So you are saying Egwene unwittingly used some Tar version of compulsion to strike a totally fair deal, one that doesn't favor the AS, with the WF's? Ermmm yeah...meanwhile the WO's who are far more accomplished in Tar just sat by and were content let her do something that surely is forbidden? Strange that now you have nothing against the bargain but in your first post you ascribed motivations on Egwene of forcing the WF's through mind control to make some horrible deal that benefits the AS. The situation with Mesaana is totally different, the wording of her inner thoughts in that scene more than anything can be chocked up to BS writing style rather than some accidental Egwene mind control, especially considering the results of the meeting.

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You don't think that was a close call? And the last test was created by Egwene herself, who should have known Nynaeve would 1) be near exhaustion at the end, 2) never leave Lan behind even if it meant dying herself. There's really no excuse for risking Nynaeve's life just to score points with Romanda and Lelaine.

 

Much closer than it should have been. I mean Egwene has to be thinking at this point how dumb is Nynaeve really, she faced the test of leaving Lan and others close to her in the test for Accepted, she was more conscious of the fact that events inside the ter'angreal weren't real more than your average Aes Sedai. How many times does she have to be tested with the same problem before she easily overcomes it? I am being a little hard on Nynaeve but Egwene throwing that in should really have been a hurdle much shorter than the others since she had already faced it before. Yeah she wasn't married to Lan and such then but still it was a problem already solved.

 

Just had to edit my post because I see why people would be angry with Egwene for doing this to a friend as close as Nynaeve who is also valuable to her causes but I am just as angry that Nynaeve found it so difficult and was so stubborn about it. I mean I know she is stubborn Two Rivers Wisdom but she needs a knock on the head as bad as Egwene in this instance.

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You don't think that was a close call? And the last test was created by Egwene herself, who should have known Nynaeve would 1) be near exhaustion at the end, 2) never leave Lan behind even if it meant dying herself. There's really no excuse for risking Nynaeve's life just to score points with Romanda and Lelaine.

 

Much closer than it should have been. I mean Egwene has to be thinking at this point how dumb is Nynaeve really, she faced the test of leaving Lan and others close to her in the test for Accepted, she was more conscious of the fact that events inside the ter'angreal weren't real more than your average Aes Sedai. How many times does she have to be tested with the same problem before she easily overcomes it? I am being a little hard on Nynaeve but Egwene throwing that in should really have been a hurdle much shorter than the others since she had already faced it before. Yeah she wasn't married to Lan and such then but still it was a problem already solved.

 

Just had to edit my post because I see why people would be angry with Egwene for doing this to a friend as close as Nynaeve who is also valuable to her causes but I am just as angry that Nynaeve found it so difficult and was so stubborn about it. I mean I know she is stubborn Two Rivers Wisdom but she needs a knock on the head as bad as Egwene in this instance.

 

Gee with friends like Egwene who needs enemies?

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Gee with friends like Egwene who needs enemies?

 

True, but Nynaeve would get friends killed just as quickly if she doesn't ease up on her stubborn foolishness a bit. Not that I see any reason that Egwene has any right to teach Nynaeve anything, they could both do with a visit to that toothless wilder that Cadsuane eventually appreciated or perhaps a few years with the Wise Ones as apprentices rather than just a short time. :smile:

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She didn't strongarmed them? Hmmm, maybe I read that part differently.

Firstly, she put everybody in danger, especially the AM that had no real strength in the dream world.

Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

Later on, she does the same with a BA. She thinks that she is an idiot and it happens, because Egwene is much more powerful in the Dream World.

It was a douche move to use it on a future ally in what supposed to be a fair bargain, but she's an AS, so there is an unspoken law that they have to gain power for the WT by any means necessary, even if it means walk over some rules of conduct or use dream word compulsion to have your way.

 

You're serious? I'll even let you continue to think that this is mind control. Unfortunately, her words there still don't tell the AM to obey. They would just make them see her as Aes Sedai, resolute, and tells the truth... all things AM would likely see from an Aes Sedai anyway... how would this FORCE them to agree?

 

And not to mention the Wo and her 'chains of lace'. Of course I will not lie you openly, I will do it covertly. So much for respect for the WO. The thing that really gets me is that she really believes she's not doing anything wrong.

 

I love when people get the words wrong and blatantly show their biases. It's, "I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead" not "chains of lace". As I have already said, to tie together with lace is a good thing for the target person. It means you offer things they want and they stick around. They can always refuse them and leave if they want. There is nothing nefarious or manipulative about it. How do we know that? Because lace doesn't actually hold anyone, it's frilly and delicate but makes a good gift. It's called an analogy.

 

She really is a perfect AS/Amyrlin.

I agree ;)

 

And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well.

Since they don't know there are 150+ members of the WT that are serving the DO, they will be forced by the rules of conduct toward the AS to received them in private if they require it. So they could decapitate the entire leadership of the armies of the light, kings, lords and generals alike, only because the AS are to proud to say to everybody else that they were breached by the darkfriends.

 

So their pride can plunge every single country in total anarchy/chaos, days before the Final Battle, only because admitting the existence of the BA will weaken their status as leaders of the world. The leaders will begin to question their allegiance, and they will require that the AS submit to their decisions rather the other way around. Which is not such a bad thing, since the AS are supposed to be the servants of all.

Yeah I hate Rand too... oh wait we weren't talking about Rand? Sure sounded like it, I mean he's not exactly broadcasting his problems to the world.

 

But I guess you're mad at what the BA COULD do, but have not. Maybe the Tower has Eyes and Ears in all the still-functioning courts ready to report if any new Aes Sedai show up. Thus eliminating your issue. You're hating someone for something that hasn't happened...

 

Another point is the Trolloc massive invasion of the borderlands.

“Your expression is grim,” Egwene noted.

“The invasion has begun,” she said. “Watchtowers across the Blightborder go silent, one at a time.

Waves of Trollocs advance beneath clouds that boil black. Kandor, Arafel and Saldaea are at war.”

And what does the Amyrlin does? Nothing. She's just happy that she managed to use the spies of the Blue Ajah, consolidating her hold of the Ajahs.

Silviana nodded curtly. She didn’t say the obvious—that the Blue network was the Blue Ajah’s, not to

be preempted by the Amyrlin. Well, the Last Battle was at hand. Some concessions had to be made.

 

The WT should be the first line of defense against the Blight. She should have sent an AS contingent to deal with those problems. THe only guys fighting there are the Asha'Man and Ithrulade's soldiers, sent there by Rand.

There's a whole thread on this alone, so I'll direct you in that direction. My views are there.

 

And the Watcher of the Seals part from the Amyrlin's title gets me every single time. I just can't stop laughing. They had to wait 3000 years for Rand&co to show them how a seal should look like :)

 

This is about as minor as minor issues get. However, technically those are only the focal points, the seals are rather abstract. So watching to make sure the Dark One remains imprisoned. It's possible the meaning got a bit twisted since the breaking. Also, Moiraine (an Aes Sedai) not only lead Rand&co to the Eye of the World where that first one they got was, but she told them what it was. Unless you consider Moiraine part of the Co. But then maybe the WT does deserve such a title more than anyone else at least.

 

Ohhh, and their view on the Ashaman problem after the taint has been cleansed is also funny as well.

AS: Mother, the taint has been cleansed. Also, the 50 AS sent to kill the Asha'Man were captured. Since Rand is such a good guy, he forbid Taim&co to kill or still them, so some Asha'Man bonded the sister to keep them from being stilled.

Egwene: What??? They are treated no better than a bunch of damane? They have no right to do so. It's completely inhumane.

AS: But what do intend to do with these Asha'Man, not that we can't kill them anymore?

Egwene: Why, bond them and treat them as damane, of course. What a silly question.

 

Yeah Egwene's treatment by the Seanchan and her fierce protectiveness over those she's been placed in charge of is hilarious. How dare she.

 

No I don't care to explain it. I don't see what the problem is. How many Aes Sedai has she made swear to her since both sides reunited? Zero. Not very good at being power hungry since she has stopped. She needed people she felt she could trust. As I said, you should debate how she decides to do things she's actually trying to do. Using this to prove she's the next Artur Hawkwing is ridiculous.

 

Yes it does inclue the bind with lace, I specifically added that because I know you still don't understand that scene, "they agree to her plans". Binding together is not a necessarily a bad thing, particularly when they want to be bound. lace is frilly, not strong enough to actually hold anyone. So to be bound with lace is to want to stay bound, to be content in the relationship. Egwene does not want the other channeling women to become reclusive again so she must bind them together for the benefit of them all, and she will do it by making them partnerships they will not refuse, like channeler exchange program.

So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there.

 

I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead.

 

Maybe you don't understand power hungry... or what the Amyrlin is. You understand that the Aes Sedai is a parliamentary institution? So Egwene needs to raise things with the hall and people need to vote for them. Also, other sisters could raise things counter to what she wants, and they could vote for them. So if she were power hungry, if she wanted to skirt the system and ensure she always got her way, which someone who is truly power hungry would do, she would continue to gather loyal or sworn people to never vote against her. She has not.

 

What manipulation?! Of course it helps the tower. She won't offer things that hurt the tower. This is how treaties work. You make deals that should help all parties. And the other channelers agreed to it. They agreed. She did not blackmail or strongarm them. They agreed to a cogent point about how it would benefit them all. And so they are bound together by a mutually amenable treaty. Where is the manipulation?

 

I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used.

...yes, I'M the one that doesn't understand what power-hungry means.She also didn't manipulate them because they agreed to it.Makes perfect sense really.Then again, maybe it's just plain denial on your part.

 

Feel free to enlighten me if you think I have it wrong. Though I've argued with you enough to know this is when you start insisting you've given all the evidence I need despite the fact all your "evidence" is based on assumed motivations that there's no actual evidence exist. You can't just assume she manipulative and power-hungry because you hate her, and use that as a proof she's manipulative and power-hungry to justify your hate, that is circular.

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You don't think that was a close call? And the last test was created by Egwene herself, who should have known Nynaeve would 1) be near exhaustion at the end, 2) never leave Lan behind even if it meant dying herself. There's really no excuse for risking Nynaeve's life just to score points with Romanda and Lelaine.

 

Much closer than it should have been. I mean Egwene has to be thinking at this point how dumb is Nynaeve really, she faced the test of leaving Lan and others close to her in the test for Accepted, she was more conscious of the fact that events inside the ter'angreal weren't real more than your average Aes Sedai. How many times does she have to be tested with the same problem before she easily overcomes it? I am being a little hard on Nynaeve but Egwene throwing that in should really have been a hurdle much shorter than the others since she had already faced it before. Yeah she wasn't married to Lan and such then but still it was a problem already solved.

 

Just had to edit my post because I see why people would be angry with Egwene for doing this to a friend as close as Nynaeve who is also valuable to her causes but I am just as angry that Nynaeve found it so difficult and was so stubborn about it. I mean I know she is stubborn Two Rivers Wisdom but she needs a knock on the head as bad as Egwene in this instance.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't have caused any issues for Egwene, as Amyrlin and long-time friend to give Nynaeve the easiest scenario. I'm sure that would have gone over just fine with the others and caused zero political problems.

 

I'm also sure Nyneave would have wanted Egwene to go easy on her, we know how she's always asking for special treatment on the count of how delicate she is.

 

Edit: I feel I should be constructive. I agree with Luckers (I think it was Luckers) that she should have just not done it at all. But at the same time she really couldn't know that they'd have run Nynaeve through what they did and force her to not look like she was giving her an easy pass. Though she probably should have guessed.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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