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Egwene/the Aes Sedai


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I don't know what you mean exactly, but Katerine is Black, not Red.

 

Haha me either! Tsutama was who I was thinking about but not apparently what I typed. Blonde moment.

 

Thats what I get for not revising my posts.

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Rand saying he can remember does sound insane, but if Nyneave is not being influenced by Rand, then Egwene has a problem since Rand is apperently sane but saying crazy stuff. In fact she herself remarks when she meets him that he seems perfectly sane but what he says is insane. Now of course if Nyneave is being influenced she has nothing to worry about, but why is she so sure that Nyneave is being influenced? That's what I'm getting at. At thhis point Egwene has no certainties, she's pretty much left in the dark, and can't come up with any absolute conclusions. Yet she's made the decision that Rand is wrong despite this. That's what surprised me and honestly dissapointed me somewhat. At no point did she seem to consider that there might something she wasn't aware of, some piece of information which Rand has which she doesn't. And that's something which she should have been able to logically deduce. Whether out of pride, or lack of attention, or having other things to deal with (like Mesaana), she never seemed to think that Rand might know something she didn't. And while I'm all for her being confident in herself, there's such a thing as being over confident.

 

 

This. She jumps to a conclusion- which may well be the right one, we won't know for sure until AMoL- on the basis of her dream, and the fact that breaking the seals sounds like a bad idea. But she doesn't even TRY and justify it to herself, or anyone else. Nynaeve thinks he might have a point- Nynave must be under ta'veren influence. She knows from Nynaeve that Rand has changed, but do we see her think "Hmmm, maybe it wasn't just the crazy talking..."? No. I don't necessarily think she should change her opinion, but I think she needs to examine it. Do research into it, like Min and HF did to get this idea in the first place. Consider other people's opinion, and offer a rebuttal based on their REASONING, rather than on "Well, you're under ta'veren influence!" Nynaeve could be under ta'veren influence and still be right. I mean, many people argue that Rand was wrong just to march in, say he was breaking the seals, and leave again with offers to talk later- and I can understand why, but I also think this might have been purposeful on Rand's part- but at least there is research leading him to believe that this course of action may be right. All we see of Egwene's thoughts are "No, that is a bad and crazy idea and must be stopped!", with no attempt to look deeper, even if it is to strengthen her own argument. I mean, what is she even going to say at Merrilor if that's her thought process? "Rand, you can't break the seals!" "Why?" "Because it's a crazy, frightening idea!" "Well, yes, its a frightening idea, but Min and HF have researched extensively, and we believe as a result..." "..."

 

Of course its understandable that its a frightening idea. But Egwene isn't some random woman. She is the head of her organisation. She is the leader of Tar Valon. She has forces at her command. Her words will be considered by leaders of the world. This is a matter that may be about the life or death of the world. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to stubbornly stick to her opinion and not consider its strengths and weaknesses. This is too important for that.

 

Don't forget that she says that you have to prove you are right, by using arguments (at Elaida's dinner). Do you say here she wouldn't follow what is maybe the most important rule for her?

 

I think that if this truly is the case, that backing up your case using arguments is the most important thing for Egwene, then since we do not see her do this at all throughout ToM- never more than "Rand must be stopped", "he must not be allowed to break the seals" and "Nynaeve's spent too much time and been ta'verened", then we are left with one of the following possibilities:

 

a) Some kind of Compulsion/ ta'veren-ness/ something else is at work in Egwene's mind, implanting/ strengthening the idea that she must try and stop Rand, keeping her mind focussed on this, to the exclusion of all doubts, or consideration of other POVs about it. Possibly an after effect of Rand's visit, possibly as part of Halima's Compulsion, maybe something else. Moghedien and Lanfear-as-Cyndane are still about, and both very skilled in T'A'R, perhaps they've been manipulating Egwene somehow (stretching a bit here). That would explain why she is shown as seeing arguments as very important to back up your case in TGS, but when it comes to the matter of the seals, she is blinded to this. A possible hint?

 

b) Bad writing. Or, not bad writing, as such, but leaving out important details. If Egwene is still supposed to see arguments to back up your case as important, and all we see is her dismissing other opinions, then are we just supposed to assume she's considered her argument properly? And the arguments of others? We have loads of Egwene POVs in ToM. We see her wrestling with the hall, we see her trying to lure out Mesaana, we see her arguing with Gawyn almost constantly, we see her making plans for post- TG, and we see her writing letters to world rulers to summon them to Merrilor. In one of those, if she has Browns on the job of researching, if she's thinking "What if Rand and Nynaeve are right?" at all, why not mention it? The latter would take a couple of sentences, the former maybe a few paragraphs, just her talking to the Brown sitters and telling them to get their Ajah onto this.

 

c) Egwene is a young leader. She doesn't have the full confidence of the Hall. She has, however, spent the last few books having sisters come to her for advice, often inexplicably, and has been taught/ believes that she has to be resolute in her own judgements. Nothing wrong with that in itself, however, being young and inexperienced, and having only really had to argue her case with AS who were acting ridiculously stupidly, or Elaida, who was basically insane by then. When she is confronted by Rand, or Nynaeve, people she respects as being clever, or says she does, she has a harder time brushing off their arguments, so, in order to appear a strong leader, and not be seen to contradict herself, she has to simply ignore their opinions while holding firm to her own.

 

I honestly don't know which of the three it is. Maybe a mixture of 2 or all of them. But saying "Well, Egwene said in the last book that arguments need to be challenged to strengthen them, so even though we never see her doing that about a really important issue, despite all the screen time we have of her, that means she's definitely doing it this time", I do think might be wishful thinking. Or bad writing, as I said.

 

Regarding your point about Gawyn: I don't like the way she treats him, and the apparent dynamics of their eventual relationship do give me a bad attack of the squicks. But leaving that aside for the moment, she wants Gawyn as her Warder because she loves him, but presumably also because she believes he would be at least competent in the role of protecting her. Yes, she's annoyed with Gawyn for not treating her with respect, or whatever, and I don't really want to go into the rights and wrongs of this, but it seems like she allows THIS to stop her from actually listening to what he's saying, which could well have gotten her killed, and broken the tower again. Its similar behaviour, albeit on a smaller scale, to what she seems to be doing with Rand about the seals- her instinct is to say no, and we don't see her do anything other than cling to that, and dismiss other opinions as ta'verenness. And in this instance, if she is wrong, its not just her and the Tower that might die/ suffer, its the world. As a leader, she has a responsibility to consider stuff, even if she doesn't agree with it, and even if she eventually decides its wrong.

 

I mean, yeah, sure, it might have been helpful for Rand to put the Tower onto researching the seals, even if his intention was to have Egwene herd all the leaders together at Merrilor to back up her opposition. But, you know, maybe he kind of assumed that one of the first things Egwene would do, as the Amyrlin Seat, would be to have people researching their asses off about the seals, or ways to seal the DO, or whatever. Its not really beyond possibility that Egwene could, and should have, thought of this herself. And if she has, and we just haven't been shown these, let's be honest, pretty vital preparations, in favour of another lover's tiff between Egwene and Gawyn, then, quite frankly, author fail.

 

Re: Testing- If she invalidates her claim by taking the test, then surely she invalidates Nynaeve and Elayne's claim to being AS by forcing them to do the same? I can understand her wanting them to swear on the Oath Rod- she believes it is important to AS, and so doesn't want two of her allies running around without being bound by them. THAT makes perfect sense. But if her taking the test implies she was not AS up until this point, then the same applies to Nynaeve and Elayne. Which means that a) Egwene is admitting that her raising of them was unlawful, and b) They have been walking around claiming the title Aes Sedai before the world, when, by the word of the Amyrlin, apparently they were not- something we know is frowned upon, often involving punishment and being put out of the tower. Now, Nynaeve clawed some ground back by changing her speech to "showing that she is worthy of the position she has", or something to that extent, but even so, it would have made more sense to either have had both of them swear on the Oath Rod and let that be an end to it, or to state that all three would take the test, not to become AS, because they already are, but to silence any who say that they are not worthy because they haven't taken it. By all means, let Egwene delay it until after TG, as Elayne is delaying it until her children are born, but either her words were legal and Nyn and Elayne were and are AS, or they weren't, in which case Elayne is still an Accepted, Nynaeve has only just been raised, and all three have breached Tower law and should be punished for it.

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Which brings us back to what I was saying : if it's dirt they want, they'll find it one way or another.

 

And I reiterate my point--there is a difference between them throwing dirt, and Egwene doing it for them.

*Sigh* It's not Eqwene throwing dirt , it's them doing it.She would be able to do so by claiming she wants to show total devotion to the WT that way and respect for traditions.Would it be something new to throw to her ? Perhaps, but the point itself is moot.Egwene is to stay and as for actually undermining her, they have other ways for that.So all in all,we agree to disagree.

 

 

Funny you would bring that up as an example, given how it was one of Egwene's failures.An Amyrlin must be impartial , but that goes both ways

 

I don't necessarily approve of Egwene being present during Nynaeve's testing, but that's a different point--the choice of making a gesture to the system that she herself had evaded was clever--having Nynaeve follow through with the testing is a gesture of good faith to the Aes Sedai, showing her respect of their ways. Not doing it herself was also clever.

 

Effectively it was the wisest way of dealing with the question of the testing. Now if Egwene had simply kept her nose completely clear of it, it would have been an act of political perfection, but meh.

True, the point is that she failed to be impartial and what's more, she failed to support her friend.Two big blunders here,pretty big if you ask me and it only goes to show how dangerous her mindset is at times.

 

 

No I don't care to explain it. I don't see what the problem is. How many Aes Sedai has she made swear to her since both sides reunited? Zero. Not very good at being power hungry since she has stopped. She needed people she felt she could trust. As I said, you should debate how she decides to do things she's actually trying to do. Using this to prove she's the next Artur Hawkwing is ridiculous.

 

Yes it does inclue the bind with lace, I specifically added that because I know you still don't understand that scene, "they agree to her plans". Binding together is not a necessarily a bad thing, particularly when they want to be bound. lace is frilly, not strong enough to actually hold anyone. So to be bound with lace is to want to stay bound, to be content in the relationship. Egwene does not want the other channeling women to become reclusive again so she must bind them together for the benefit of them all, and she will do it by making them partnerships they will not refuse, like channeler exchange program.

So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there.

 

I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead.

Edited by Zentari
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On the other hand, taking the tests could have had negative effects. To do so would be to be to acknowledge that she was not yet Aes Sedai, which would have retroactively invalidated her claim--the law is clear, 'the Amyrlin Seat, as Aes Sedai...'

 

To do so would be to give ammunition to anyone who opposed her claim.

True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot.

 

She's been raised by both sides of the Tower conflict. There's no need for further formalities. What is the spirit of the law, and how does she not fulfill it? How is she not the very embodiment of the White Tower at this point? If she was not fully Aes Sedai, she could not have shamed the Tower Sitters at her raising the way she did, but they hung their heads because they knew they had failed, and that she had the moral authority, not just the technical authority, to scold them for it. If the Aes Sedai themselves accept her, and it is clear that they do, then that should be sufficient.

There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ?

Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims.

 

 

Also, Zeshan can probably answer for himself, he has done so just fine thus far.

True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding.

 

I don't really see your point. Obviously, they never considered that a woman who was not Aes Sedai would be considered for the Amyrlin Seat, and that is where the loophole came from. However, it also clearly states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." which is the basis for her title as Aes Sedai. She is Aes Sedai by virtue of being Amyrlin, and that is made quite clear in the books. I am sure you are aware of it. Because of that, she does not need to take the test in order to claim that title; it is hers by right as Amyrlin Seat. Again, what does it matter if she ever takes the test or not?

 

No, it is not a private conversation, but I asked him to clarify his statement, not for someone else's interpretation of his statement.

Thank you for answering.The fact that they never considered it and it happened is what messes things up. The law states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." because they ONLY considered an Aes Sedai candidate.It was never about getting a free shawl.Thus they violated the spirit of the law while adhering to the letter.

Sure, the rebel Aes Sedai violated the spirit of Tower law, but Egwene didn't. She did not conspire to become Amyrlin through some shady tactic; it was thrust upon her, and my answer is still the same; she does not need to take the test. Maybe I do not see what you're driving at.
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I think that if this truly is the case, that backing up your case using arguments is the most important thing for Egwene, then since we do not see her do this at all throughout ToM- never more than "Rand must be stopped", "he must not be allowed to break the seals" and "Nynaeve's spent too much time and been ta'verened", then we are left with one of the following possibilities:

 

a) Some kind of Compulsion/ ta'veren-ness/ something else is at work in Egwene's mind, implanting/ strengthening the idea that she must try and stop Rand, keeping her mind focussed on this, to the exclusion of all doubts, or consideration of other POVs about it. Possibly an after effect of Rand's visit, possibly as part of Halima's Compulsion, maybe something else. Moghedien and Lanfear-as-Cyndane are still about, and both very skilled in T'A'R, perhaps they've been manipulating Egwene somehow (stretching a bit here). That would explain why she is shown as seeing arguments as very important to back up your case in TGS, but when it comes to the matter of the seals, she is blinded to this. A possible hint?

 

b) Bad writing. Or, not bad writing, as such, but leaving out important details. If Egwene is still supposed to see arguments to back up your case as important, and all we see is her dismissing other opinions, then are we just supposed to assume she's considered her argument properly? And the arguments of others? We have loads of Egwene POVs in ToM. We see her wrestling with the hall, we see her trying to lure out Mesaana, we see her arguing with Gawyn almost constantly, we see her making plans for post- TG, and we see her writing letters to world rulers to summon them to Merrilor. In one of those, if she has Browns on the job of researching, if she's thinking "What if Rand and Nynaeve are right?" at all, why not mention it? The latter would take a couple of sentences, the former maybe a few paragraphs, just her talking to the Brown sitters and telling them to get their Ajah onto this.

 

c) Egwene is a young leader. She doesn't have the full confidence of the Hall. She has, however, spent the last few books having sisters come to her for advice, often inexplicably, and has been taught/ believes that she has to be resolute in her own judgements. Nothing wrong with that in itself, however, being young and inexperienced, and having only really had to argue her case with AS who were acting ridiculously stupidly, or Elaida, who was basically insane by then. When she is confronted by Rand, or Nynaeve, people she respects as being clever, or says she does, she has a harder time brushing off their arguments, so, in order to appear a strong leader, and not be seen to contradict herself, she has to simply ignore their opinions while holding firm to her own.

 

I honestly don't know which of the three it is. Maybe a mixture of 2 or all of them. But saying "Well, Egwene said in the last book that arguments need to be challenged to strengthen them, so even though we never see her doing that about a really important issue, despite all the screen time we have of her, that means she's definitely doing it this time", I do think might be wishful thinking. Or bad writing, as I said.

 

Regarding your point about Gawyn: I don't like the way she treats him, and the apparent dynamics of their eventual relationship do give me a bad attack of the squicks. But leaving that aside for the moment, she wants Gawyn as her Warder because she loves him, but presumably also because she believes he would be at least competent in the role of protecting her. Yes, she's annoyed with Gawyn for not treating her with respect, or whatever, and I don't really want to go into the rights and wrongs of this, but it seems like she allows THIS to stop her from actually listening to what he's saying, which could well have gotten her killed, and broken the tower again. Its similar behaviour, albeit on a smaller scale, to what she seems to be doing with Rand about the seals- her instinct is to say no, and we don't see her do anything other than cling to that, and dismiss other opinions as ta'verenness. And in this instance, if she is wrong, its not just her and the Tower that might die/ suffer, its the world. As a leader, she has a responsibility to consider stuff, even if she doesn't agree with it, and even if she eventually decides its wrong.

 

I mean, yeah, sure, it might have been helpful for Rand to put the Tower onto researching the seals, even if his intention was to have Egwene herd all the leaders together at Merrilor to back up her opposition. But, you know, maybe he kind of assumed that one of the first things Egwene would do, as the Amyrlin Seat, would be to have people researching their asses off about the seals, or ways to seal the DO, or whatever. Its not really beyond possibility that Egwene could, and should have, thought of this herself. And if she has, and we just haven't been shown these, let's be honest, pretty vital preparations, in favour of another lover's tiff between Egwene and Gawyn, then, quite frankly, author fail.

 

I prefer option d) Egwene hasn't reserched the Seals and isn't interested in negotiation because Egwene doesn't really care about the Seals, as Elayne says they're going to break soon anyway. The Seals are just the excuse she needs to usurp command of the nations from Rand, binding them to the White Tower/Her/the Light, as opposed to the Dragon/Creator's Champion. She likes to think herself virtuous so she needs a way to justify her ambitions in her own mind, hence why she is only "obliquely" aware of her true goal. If Rand hadn't told her about the Seals, she would have come up with another excuse to try and undermine his command and expand her own. Which he is well aware of, which is why he provided her the ammunition he did - knowing the box was full of duds. Had he left her to come up with a reason to try and usurp him herself she might have come up with something better, but this way he controls the time and place of their confrontation as well as the topic they will fight over. He knows more of the Seals than anyone living, is essential to the survival of everyone present at this meeting when Tarmon Gai'don begins, and can initiate Tarmon Gai'don at any time. Theres no way she can win this fight. If Egwene didn't insist on looking down on Rand and men in general she would probably see the trap shes walking into, but then she wouldn't be Egwene.

Edited by AshaShan
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I'm not sure if this was in response to my quotes, but I wasn't trying to build up weight on the "good" side that you need to counter balance. I was simply giving evidence against untrue generalizations of Egwene. So if you think these quotes suggest some general flaw in the character then spell it out so we might debate it.

 

I really don't care to debate every possible negative thought or decision she has had. You could make a giant list of these for any character. Some will be more or less damning to different people.

 

Lan wanted to kill some backforest farmer just cause the poor guy figured out Moir was Aes Sedai. Should I conclude that Lan is some cold blooded killer whose bloodlust is only tempered by Moir holding him back? No, I know the man was suggesting what he felt needed to be done to keep his oaths, and what he could do to protect those actively fighting the shadow.

 

A quick note on dreaming though. I always wished Egwene could have broken into his shield because it could have been one way for them to have talked and maybe averted a lot of problems. Maybe Egwene would even be as convinced as Nyn of his sanity if she had. I think jumping to the conclusion her motivations were in some way nefarious is unfair.

It wasn't in responce to anything specific, as i said, I was just rereading ACOS lately and noticed those passages, which IMO show well some of Egwene's negative traits like hypocrisy or her disregard for other people's privacy. If they were isolated examples, I wouldn't have brought them up, but I believe there are plenty of other examples of those traits.

 

As for the dream spying - Egwene started trying to break this shield way back in TFOH, when finding a way to communicate with Rand was not an issue, since they were at Rhuidean together and then travelling together. So I don't think that's her motivation here, especially since she had Travelling available which gave her another way of easy and fast communication with Rand.

 

Also we have other examples of Egwene's spying on people's dreams without permission with no intent to communicate:

 

TFOH, Ch. 7

 

Egwene sighed. Friend or not, Aviendha was quite capable of trying to box her ears when offended enough. In any case, she was not sure she would have admitted it, either. Aviendha’s dream had been too painful to watch for long. Naked but for that ivory bracelet, and that seeming to drag at her as if it weighed a hundred pounds, Aviendha had been running as hard as she could across a cracked clay flat. And behind her, Rand came, a giant twice the size of an Ogier on a huge Jeade’en, slowly but inexorably catching up.

 

But you could not simply tell a friend that she was lying. Egwene’s face reddened slightly. Especially not when you would have to tell her how you knew. She would box my ears, then. I won’t do it again. Go rummaging about in people’s dreams. Not in Aviendha’s dreams, anyway. It was not right to spy on a friend’s dreams. Not that it was spying, exactly, but still . . .

To her credit, Egwene does feel guilty here and decided to stop spying on Aviendha's dreams. But on the other hand, she didn't admit it to her and didn't apologise, which is a pretty poor way to treat a friend.

 

Even worse IMO is that she's been spying regularly on Berelain's dreams and didn't feel guilty about it at all - she's done it enough time to know what kind are her usual dream and which are more rare:

LoC, Ch.14

 

Looking into Berelain’s dreams made Egwene uncomfortable. Usually they were no different from any other woman’s — any woman interested equally in power, politics and the latest fashion in dresses — but sometimes Berelain dreamed of men, even men Egwene knew, in a way that made Egwene blush to remember.

Apparently since Berelain is no friend of Egwene, she doesn't deserve to have privacy. Even witnessing Berelain's erotic dreams didn't make Egwene stop spying on her.

Edited by David Selig
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He knows more of the Seals than anyone living,

 

Which unfortunately as we know still isn't nearly enough. He says flat out he doesn't know how to fix it and tells Min he needs her to find the answers. I just wish he would have been up front and put everyone on the task of researching the issue. As I mentioned earlier we saw Cads confirm a thought Min had about prophecy. Do you really think Eggy wouldn't care and wouldn't be researching if he had asked for help from the WT library?

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He knows more of the Seals than anyone living,

 

Which unfortunately as we know still isn't nearly enough. He says flat out he doesn't know how to fix it and tells Min he needs her to find the answers. I just wish he would have been up front and put everyone on the task of researching the issue. As I mentioned earlier we saw Cads confirm a thought Min had about prophecy. Do you really think Eggy wouldn't care and wouldn't be researching if he had asked for help from the WT library?

I think that egwene would have beat around the bush if there was no deadline put in front of her. I believe she would have spent more time and resources on consolidating the female channellers into one entity than researching because she likely would think the final battle is a ways away

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Does zen Rand have an idea on how to fix the bore? As opposed to dark Rand? Did Rand tell Min to research more in ToM?

I know he did in TGS.

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Does zen Rand have an idea on how to fix the bore? As opposed to dark Rand? Did Rand tell Min to research more in ToM?

I know he did in TGS.

 

I think he said something like "I need you Min" and "I trust you Min" on the subject, right before he meets Tam again.

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Does zen Rand have an idea on how to fix the bore? As opposed to dark Rand? Did Rand tell Min to research more in ToM?

I know he did in TGS.

 

ToM "For What Has Been Wrought"

 

"I need you Min."

"You have me. Stupid looby"

"Callandor," he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

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People are treating her negative reaction to Rand wanting to break the seals a little too harshly. Rand's offering to launch the first nuke that, from all we know, will start a nuclear holocaust. The Seals are all that hold the Dark One at bay. That's been ingrained in over 3,500 years of culture. Rand has a reputation for being rash, eccentric, having crazy mood swings, hearing voices, insane anger, and among other things. He's a man who can channel, even if saidin is now cleansed the taint has touched his mind. Who's to say that this man can be rational? And why does Egwene get all the hate for her not trusting him in this? She has spent little time with him of late, unlike Nynaeve, so that's all she has to go on. Rand himself should know this, Rand himself was the one who walked in, made this announcement that would sound absolutely insane to anybody listening, and then says he has to leave and walks out without any explanation. We have the benefit of his POV, but he hasn't rationalized himself to Egwene, nor did he make any effort to demonstrate his sanity to her, something he should have been aware would clearly be in question after his last year or so of history. He acted as Rand/LTT typically does, with a sort of "I'm in charge, this is what I'm doing, I don't explain myself, alright now fall in line" type of arrogance that he and LTT were famous for.

 

Now I'm not saying Egwene is right, but to the people of Randland, breaking the Seals has to sound like the most absurd thing ever. It's one of the things that causes you to splutter in surprise when somebody asks you why it shouldn't be done, because the idea of doing it is just so insane (within the cultural experience) and the idea that somebody could rationally think otherwise is just laughable. Everyone's blaming Egwene for being opposed to the idea without offering an alternative, but Rand didn't really discuss with her why he needs to do this at all, nor does he seem to know what needs to be done after he does it anyway. Even Egwene's dream shows that, he breaks the giant crystal sphere and then doesn't know what to do.

 

Sheesh, what a rambling post, but I don't understand why people have a hard time with this.

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Egwene decided that before Nynaeve took the test. Furthermore, if she's truly concerned that this will be an issue, why teach Nicola and other Accepted to use T'A'R?

 

(As an aside, I don't believe Nynaeve's practice in T'A'R is the real reason why she was able to break the rules. Brandon confirmed that the weave placed on the Accepted prior to the Aes Sedai test is similar to Compulsion, and Nynaeve was able to break out of Moghedien's full-strength Compulsion in TSR. Nynaeve also did something similar in the Accepted test where she not only managed to channel without being burned out, she created a new exit when the regular one disappeared.)

Interesting, now I wish I had my copy of ToM to reread this... I suppose it does make sense for that to be the case though.

 

Perhaps it isn't legally necessary, but IMO, she owes it to all the Accepted who are forced to spend countless hours learning the difficult weaves and kicked out of the Tower if they fail. She will look like a giant hypocrite every time she makes an Accepted leave the Tower for not having passed the test, while she herself gets to stay.

I won't argue with this part; I disagree, but it is your opinion as you've already said.

 

I disagree with the argument that it will legally invalidate her claim to be Aes Sedai/Amyrlin; if that were the case, she shouldn't have sworn the oaths either or told the Hall "Let it no longer be breathed that I am not fully Aes Sedai" right after swearing those oaths.

 

That Egwene claimed in TGS that she would take the test, only to dismiss the idea in ToM while at the same time putting Nynaeve through such a brutal test, makes her look even worse.

Taking the Test wouldn't invalidate anything legally, however, it would show the other Aes Sedai she had doubts about her claim to full sisterhood. That is the only issue, and it is a big one considering all the work she has done acting as a full Aes Sedai up until this point. Luckers ahs already addressed your last point better than I could. :wink:

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Egwene almost certainly can do the Weaves involved without much effort. She's seen the weaves and knows them (she's a quicfk study even if she isn;t Nyn). She's also pretty good and very experienced at TAR. And, she's been involved in manipulating the ter'angreal. She could waltz through the test if she chose to.

 

Lucker's point is absolutely correct - it would give any AS who doubted her a handle to question her authority if she took the test at all.

Egwene was raised using a legal hair split. She would hate to be placed in a position where her authority was questioned via another legal hair split.

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Egwene almost certainly can do the Weaves involved without much effort. She's seen the weaves and knows them (she's a quicfk study even if she isn;t Nyn). She's also pretty good and very experienced at TAR. And, she's been involved in manipulating the ter'angreal. She could waltz through the test if she chose to.

I wouldnt say that. remember they do things in the tests to attempt to hurt/distract her. who knows what would really happen

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On those lines if she did take the test which she won't it would be really interesting to see who would be the sisters administering the test. It would be one thing if it was her "sworn" supporters and quite anothor if were Romanda, Lelaine, et al.

 

One other thought, now that she is in fact the universally recognized Amirlyn, has she given any thought to releasing the sisters already sworn to her?

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Egwene has more than enough battle experience to channel confidently under pressure in an environment, which she understands better than any other sister.

FFS distraction??? She's channeled and manipulated TAR while a Forsaken and a dozen BA were trying to kill her.

Not to mention fighting off a full-blown Seanchan attack and protecting dozens of frightened twits at the same time.

You may not like her - I don't but her ability to channel under pressure is not an issue.

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People are treating her negative reaction to Rand wanting to break the seals a little too harshly. Rand's offering to launch the first nuke that, from all we know, will start a nuclear holocaust. The Seals are all that hold the Dark One at bay. That's been ingrained in over 3,500 years of culture. Rand has a reputation for being rash, eccentric, having crazy mood swings, hearing voices, insane anger, and among other things. He's a man who can channel, even if saidin is now cleansed the taint has touched his mind. Who's to say that this man can be rational? And why does Egwene get all the hate for her not trusting him in this? She has spent little time with him of late, unlike Nynaeve, so that's all she has to go on. Rand himself should know this, Rand himself was the one who walked in, made this announcement that would sound absolutely insane to anybody listening, and then says he has to leave and walks out without any explanation. We have the benefit of his POV, but he hasn't rationalized himself to Egwene, nor did he make any effort to demonstrate his sanity to her, something he should have been aware would clearly be in question after his last year or so of history. He acted as Rand/LTT typically does, with a sort of "I'm in charge, this is what I'm doing, I don't explain myself, alright now fall in line" type of arrogance that he and LTT were famous for.

 

Now I'm not saying Egwene is right, but to the people of Randland, breaking the Seals has to sound like the most absurd thing ever. It's one of the things that causes you to splutter in surprise when somebody asks you why it shouldn't be done, because the idea of doing it is just so insane (within the cultural experience) and the idea that somebody could rationally think otherwise is just laughable. Everyone's blaming Egwene for being opposed to the idea without offering an alternative, but Rand didn't really discuss with her why he needs to do this at all, nor does he seem to know what needs to be done after he does it anyway. Even Egwene's dream shows that, he breaks the giant crystal sphere and then doesn't know what to do.

 

Sheesh, what a rambling post, but I don't understand why people have a hard time with this.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Egwene should just shut up and do what Rand tells her to. It's just that Egwene never seemed to consider the posibility that Rand might know something she doesn't. Yes he may be insane (Although I doubt she knows as much about his former condition as you seem to be saying), but what if he is not? Nyneave should have told her that he was no longer insane. And Rand may have refused to give an explanation at their meeting, but he did say he would give one when they me again at the FoM. Why not wait until then to make her decision about whether he needs to be stopped or not? What does she have to lose?

 

About the Rand/LTT attitude you mentioned, I can understand why you say that for Rand, but why for LTT? He only put his plan into motion as a last resort, and respected the decision of the Hall of Servants to go with LPD's plan instead. That doesn't sound like a guy who doesn't listen to anyone to me.

 

Finally if the idea was that ridiculous, then why did Elayne and Nyneave not jump right on board with Egwene? Nyneave didn't even seem to think it was a big deal. Perrin didn't have a problem with it, and what about all those people who follow Rand? I don't think Cadsuane is one to just follow Rand blindly, so the can't have sounded that ridiculous to her. To me Egwene's failure here, isn't that she didn't just follow Rand blindly, it's that she didn't consider that he may, even if it's smallest possibility in the world, be right, or at least may have had information that she doesn't. Incidentally, Rand told her that he remembered LTT's life, and Nyneave should have told her that Rand is not insane. So while her initial reaction is perfectly logical, it's her failure to reconsider things after Nyneave gives her more information which I blame her for.

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He knows more of the Seals than anyone living,

 

Which unfortunately as we know still isn't nearly enough. He says flat out he doesn't know how to fix it and tells Min he needs her to find the answers. I just wish he would have been up front and put everyone on the task of researching the issue. As I mentioned earlier we saw Cads confirm a thought Min had about prophecy. Do you really think Eggy wouldn't care and wouldn't be researching if he had asked for help from the WT library?

 

The problem with judging Rand's actions is that, basically, we have no idea what his intentions were, how much he knows, or what he means to do. It's quite clear he provoked Egwene and the WT on purpose, the question is why. Why did he feel he needed to provoke her, to manipulate her into acting as she did. She acted exactly as he expected and wanted her to. But there must have been a reason as to why he didn't want to give them an explanation, why he told them very abruptly what he was planning on doing. Surely he didn't provoke her just for the fun of it. Does he not trust Egwene and the aes sedai (admitidly, he would have good reasons for not trusting the WT at this point)? Does he want to make the WT look bad (it would probably help the aes sedai in the long run to be taken down a peg or two)?

 

I agree it's rather odd that Rand chose to act this way, but he must have had a reason. Rand, especially this new Rand, doesn't strike me as someone who does things for no reason. Personally I'm going to wait until aMoL before judging Rand on this otherwise I feel I'd be making a decision without really having any information, sort of how I feel Egwene is acting.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Egwene has more than enough battle experience to channel confidently under pressure in an environment, which she understands better than any other sister.

FFS distraction??? She's channeled and manipulated TAR while a Forsaken and a dozen BA were trying to kill her.

Not to mention fighting off a full-blown Seanchan attack and protecting dozens of frightened twits at the same time.

You may not like her - I don't but her ability to channel under pressure is not an issue.

 

Yeah I really don't think Egwene would have any problem with the staying calm part. She's been in plenty of stressful situations. She seemed to think the weaves were rather complicated though, whereas Nyneave was more like "piece of cake".

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Master Ablar, I just want to comment. There's one thing that divides the Egwenehaters/lovers/neutrals more than anything, and that is polarization of the argumentation (I am guilty of it myself). What you do here, drag it into a middle area of things that are not either white or black, is very healthy for the discussion. Respect :)

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Master Ablar, I just want to comment. There's one thing that divides the Egwenehaters/lovers/neutrals more than anything, and that is polarization of the argumentation (I am guilty of it myself). What you do here, drag it into a middle area of things that are not either white or black, is very healthy for the discussion. Respect :)

 

Well, thanks! I just try to be as objective as possible.

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I think Egwene was totally right when she decided not to go through testing. She's already proven herself to have what's necessary for being Aes Sedai many times over, she doesn't an artificial test for that. Even more importantly - risking death in the test would've been really stupid and reckless. The light can't afford to lose superstrong channellers at this moment, and Egwene's death would've provoked another crisis in the Tower searching for a new Amyrlin and maybe even splitting up again.

 

The risky nature of the test is why I think she was wrong to ask Nynaeve to go through it at this moment, BTW. What if Nynaeve had died during it? It made no sense to me to risk the Tower's strongest channeller, the only one who up to this point had bested a Forsaken in a one on one battle, just to gain a minuscule political advantage for Egwene and more acceptance for Nynaeve from the other Aes Sedai,

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While I tend to agree that yes Nynaeve is too important to have gone through the testing at that time, especially just to help make Egwene look good, Nynaeve has done things no Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends even considered remotely possible. This and her general affinity with complex weaves, to me, made this much less of a real risk for Egwene/Nynaeve. As readers I don't think most of us were on the edge of our seats wondering if Nynaeve would survive the testing. I know I was wondering how it could possibly be believable if she would have been killed or even stilled by the testing.

 

My general opinion on especially the main characters is to withhold judgment until the end of the series. That said I don't think people have been totally conscious of the fact that we are in a universe here fundamentally different from our own. In this universe the characters do things that seem to be influenced by memories from their past lives (depending on the situation if not that it could be a case of extremely good luck).

 

I find the situations where Egwene is doing something with the Power that she doesn't even understand to be little nudges from the author saying "hey this is something that she can do for a reason but its not going to be explained at this point so just deal with it and infer what you wish". This is done across the board with Nynaeve, Rand, Mat and Perrin giving more explanation to how these characters have become so prominent besides just through luck.

Edited by KaptainKaos
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As readers I don't think most of us were on the edge of our seats wondering if Nynaeve would survive the testing.

 

That because the Light-side main characters cannot die, more than the feeling that Nyn is to skilled to fail.

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