What will Egwene do at FOM?

[buckeyebull64]

This is sure to cause Egwene-bashing, and that's not what I intend (really), but it must be considered if we're talking about this subject. Why? because, as far as I can see, it's the only way "force his hand" that might actually work. So here it goes:

 

Would Egwene resort to Compulsion?

 

I know, I know, she's said she finds it repulsive. But she also thinks she's looking down the barrel of a gun with the whole break-the-seals thing. If it's the only means to her end, would she do it? I honestly have no idea.

[Kahsm]

 

 

I agree almost completely with Majsju. All except for Egwene being Ta'veren pulled. Ta'veren effect does nothing if you're already inclined to do what he wanted. If Rand was abusing his ta'veren powers he'd be more direct like with the windfinders and when he tried with Tuon.

 

It is quite obvious that Egwene was firmly ta'veren pulled. As soon as rand left the room, we see her raising her hand to her head, feling dizzy. A quite obvious sign, especially since it is mirrored later in the book by Galad, who feels weaker moments after having agreed to join up with Perrin.

Everyone was caught in the whirlpool or spiral of threads in the pattern that a ta'veren creates. That doesn't mean it forced her into anything she wouldn't have otherwise done. When Tuon resisted she also felt it. Likely the strength of the effect was keeping the other Aes Sedai silent.

[Majsju]

I agree almost completely with Majsju. All except for Egwene being Ta'veren pulled. Ta'veren effect does nothing if you're already inclined to do what he wanted. If Rand was abusing his ta'veren powers he'd be more direct like with the windfinders and when he tried with Tuon.

 

It is quite obvious that Egwene was firmly ta'veren pulled. As soon as rand left the room, we see her raising her hand to her head, feling dizzy. A quite obvious sign, especially since it is mirrored later in the book by Galad, who feels weaker moments after having agreed to join up with Perrin.

Everyone was caught in the whirlpool or spiral of threads in the pattern that a ta'veren creates. That doesn't mean it forced her into anything she wouldn't have otherwise done. When Tuon resisted she also felt it. Likely the strength of the effect was keeping the other Aes Sedai silent.

 

Tuon more than felt it, we saw how she had to actively fight it off. And when she does, she lands in a position Rand does not wnat her to be in.

Egwene does not fight anything, she does not even notice until afterwards that something is odd, and even then she does not connect it to ta'veren. And when Rand suggests a new meeting at FoM, she does not oppose that. she does not even consider other options to prevent rand from breaking the seals, she immidiatly sets her mind on going to the meeting Rand suggested.

 

Is it a coincidence that Egwene reaches the exact decision Rand wants her to, without even considering other options? There are rarely any coincidences when there is a ta'veren around.

[Kahsm]

I agree almost completely with Majsju. All except for Egwene being Ta'veren pulled. Ta'veren effect does nothing if you're already inclined to do what he wanted. If Rand was abusing his ta'veren powers he'd be more direct like with the windfinders and when he tried with Tuon.

 

It is quite obvious that Egwene was firmly ta'veren pulled. As soon as rand left the room, we see her raising her hand to her head, feling dizzy. A quite obvious sign, especially since it is mirrored later in the book by Galad, who feels weaker moments after having agreed to join up with Perrin.

Everyone was caught in the whirlpool or spiral of threads in the pattern that a ta'veren creates. That doesn't mean it forced her into anything she wouldn't have otherwise done. When Tuon resisted she also felt it. Likely the strength of the effect was keeping the other Aes Sedai silent.

 

Tuon more than felt it, we saw how she had to actively fight it off. And when she does, she lands in a position Rand does not wnat her to be in.

Egwene does not fight anything, she does not even notice until afterwards that something is odd, and even then she does not connect it to ta'veren. And when Rand suggests a new meeting at FoM, she does not oppose that. she does not even consider other options to prevent rand from breaking the seals, she immidiatly sets her mind on going to the meeting Rand suggested.

 

Is it a coincidence that Egwene reaches the exact decision Rand wants her to, without even considering other options? There are rarely any coincidences when there is a ta'veren around.

 

She didn't fight it because there was nothing to fight. Yes, when someone comes and says something crazy, refuses to plan with you, then says we'll talk about it later, how much convincing would she need to say yes?

 

And again, why would he act manipulative if he was using his ta'veren-ness when he never has before? I'm not even sure it works through covert manipulation... if it did he could just professor-x whatever he wanted out of people.

[francy]

The levels the anti-egwene crowd can stoop to is almost mindblowing at times.

 

But, I'll pretend i take this thread seriously, just so there will be at least one decent post here.

 

Egwene will do nothing. She will not try to do anything, other than hosting a meeting. A meeting where she will explain the situation. rand will keep insisting on that he must break the seals despite not having a clue what to do next. People will shout, taking Egwenes side, Rands side, or a side they just invented on the spot. Until messages starts coming about the attack on Caemlyn, about Tarwins Gap, and possibly even about the Seanchans next attack on the WT (the timeline allows for that to happen).

 

Messages that will change the nature of the meeting, from a discussion about the seals, to all of the lights forces starting to work together to fight back. Keep in mind that the main reason Egwene called all these forces was Rands ta'veren influencing her. Which means that the Pattern needs them to be there, at that very moment. Even rand is a slave under the pattern, so it is very possible his ta'veren influenced himself to come up with 30 days, so the meeting takes place just as the Shadow makes its move.

 

So the real question should be, What will the Pattern force people to do at FoM?

 

I just wanted to add - regarding "forcing her hand", that there are a lot of things that she can do, politically, that would in a normal situation work just fine. Withdrawing AS support, making alliances amongst the other rulers getting them onside, alliances and agreements with all the other channelling bodies that she wants to bring into the Tower's fold (Wise Ones, Wind Finders, etc), that kind of thing. I don't think "forcing her hand" meant she had one big plan (like compulsion or kidnapping, murder, etc, that have been suggested here). The Amyrlin is not without political power - normally, so its natural for her to believe that she does have some cards that she can lay on the table here.

 

But I personally believe Egwene is going to realise just how powerless the WT is in the Pattern's grand scheme, when push comes to shove, as the Pattern forces EVERYONE to do its bidding.

 

Not bashing Egwene - I like her, but I think she's going to have to swallow a very large reality pill in the next book!

[AshaShan]

I'd assume she and whatever Aes Sedai with her will be focusing circles of thirteen. She'll also likely try and dose him with forkroot as suggested. But her first order of business will be to try and turn the various factions on the lightside against him and get them in her pocket. If that succeeds she probably wont feel the need to resort to the other methods. But should it fail, and she have to resort to open conflict, will those same factions simply stand by?

[BananaOnDrugs]

I imagine something like this happening:

Rand:Hey guys.

Everyone:yo.

Egwene: Come inside have some tea.

He comes inside and drinks one drop.

Rand:I remember 3000 years ago when Aginor created a most devious herb. He managed to spread large quantities of it in (insert ancient city name) water supply just before attacking it. The people were helpless. They couldn't channel. Now if you don't mind I'm gonna pass on tea.

Egwene: Ehh...right. Anyway you shouldn't break the seals.

Rand: I will.

Everyone: Then we won't join ya.

Rand: Fine fend for yourselves I'm going to Seanchan. I hear it's pretty warm there. Nice beaches. Cya. Ohh btw if you change your mind ask Logain to send me a message boy.

Rand makes a gate and leaves before anyone can say anything. Mat and Moarain break in and shout about seanchan at WT and trollocs at Caemlyn. Then Nyneave ports to Lan dyeing, Rand killing trollocs left'n right.

5 hours pass

Everyone: Sorry Rand we do what you want.

Rand: Get me a pizza. I killed him already.

[LazyMonk]

I can't believe Egwene will resort to direct military conflict they cannot weaken themselves like that a moment before the real battle. Others will see that even if she won't.

Any direct control, forkroot or compulsion (Rand can now brake any amount of shielding) would be supremely hypocritical after her grand speech in front of Elaida.

Also, If she thinks of some trick out of TAR, Rand now has his own TAR super-soldier... Perrin.

 

Finally, lets not forget the hidden Ace... How will Egwene and Rand react when Moiraine arrives at the scene?! after all that happened she still has a lot of influence on both of them.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think Rand will go to Perrin's camp and host a war council meeting there, with Egwene arriving just like everyone else. She will speak against breaking the seals and I hope Rand will finally explain something more than he did in ToM. I refuse to believe that his LTT knowledge is as useless concerning the seals as would seem from ToM alone.

 

Egwene is not so stupid as to try to use any, direct or indirect, force against Rand. She will believe in the force of her arguments and I sincerely hope that at least once in whole series she will not dominate the scene she participates in.

 

I would love to see the scene at FoM as a huge council with lots of important Light side characters, like Nynaeve, Logain, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Elayne, Egwene, Perrin, Mat, the monarchs etc., with Rand playing the central role and various people offering their contributions. Making it a bilateral Rand-Egwene confrontation will further distort the spirit of WOT, which isn't after all a story of two main characters. It's either a story of one, or of many.

[Luckers]

I almost like the idea of Egwene being right to stop Rand breaking the seals, but Sandersons not that sort of writer (the character you like most always comes out on top, so if RJ's notes said Rand was wrong, he'd not have been presented so forcefully about the idea because it'd leave him looking too much of the fool when the reveal came).

 

But yeah, all this 'compulsion, armies, circles shielding him'... nah, I don't see it. I agree with those that think she was looking at purely political efforts--very similar in fact to the Fateful Concord or whatever it was called that Latra Posae Decume used to block Lews Therin and the Sealing.

[FarShainMael]

This is sure to cause Egwene-bashing, and that's not what I intend (really), but it must be considered if we're talking about this subject. Why? because, as far as I can see, it's the only way "force his hand" that might actually work. So here it goes:

 

Would Egwene resort to Compulsion?

 

I know, I know, she's said she finds it repulsive. But she also thinks she's looking down the barrel of a gun with the whole break-the-seals thing. If it's the only means to her end, would she do it? I honestly have no idea.

 

If Egwene is herself under Compulsion from Halima/Aran'gar (and I'm pretty sure that's the case).. then yes, she will try to Compel Rand. Halima would have put that Compulsion on her.

[XXX]

I almost like the idea of Egwene being right to stop Rand breaking the seals, but Sandersons not that sort of writer (the character you like most always comes out on top, so if RJ's notes said Rand was wrong, he'd not have been presented so forcefully about the idea because it'd leave him looking too much of the fool when the reveal came).

 

But yeah, all this 'compulsion, armies, circles shielding him'... nah, I don't see it. I agree with those that think she was looking at purely political efforts--very similar in fact to the Fateful Concord or whatever it was called that Latra Posae Decume used to block Lews Therin and the Sealing.

 

Will Cads,Moraine,dozens of AS sworn to the Dragon, Ny listen to whatever Egwene says?..then there are the WO, Sea Folk and Alivia in Rand's camp. Latra could do her her pledge because all the female channelers were AS. Hardly the case here. And whether she likes or not..she will have to fight because otherwise the trollocs will eat her.

 

Plus I don't see how that prevents Rand from breaking the seal in the first place.

 

I read "force her hand" as some type of direct confrontation...maybe with the OP.

[Luckers]

They wouldn't necessarily listen, and Egwene was surprised by the Wise Ones reservation after she told them Rand's intentions.

 

But she is the Amyrlin Seat. That still holds clout even in the face of the Dragon, as is made clear over and over again--re-read KoD and the scene where Verin sends Rand a letter, and the observations Rand makes about the respect given Aes Sedai versus that given the Dragon. Certainly her word will hold weight with the nations.

[XXX]

You mistake me...it really does not matter even if she convinces every single nation in the world to go against Rand. They cannot prevent him from breaking the seals and they will have to fight the shadow irrespective. And the AS have fallen a long way from KoD anyway.

 

Rand needs female channelers to seal the bore and he already has female channelers with him, AS or not who are sworn to him and will follow him. It is hardly a Letra situation.

[Luckers]

No but having them have her back will lend weight to her words in arguing with Rand. She intends to oppose him. To do that she must first make him listen. He's given a very generalized, and quite patronizing gesture that he will listen to her, but she is not trusting that. Marsheling others in her support will lend her words more weight.

[randsc]

Basically Majsju has it right, except for the silliness about Egwene haters. This strikes me as a reasonable question with which to begin a thread.

 

I don't agree with Kael about the ta'veren thing. We have no evidence whatsoever that ta'veren effect has no impact if you are already inclined in a particular direction. None. We do have evidence that ta'veren power isn't something that can be consciously "used" (or abused). We do have evidence that Egwene felt exactly the same physical effects that others who have come under ta'veren influence felt. Why write about her dizziness if it doesn't mean anything? Practically the definition of Chekhov's Gun.

[Elvira_Sedai]

Does the question is What Egwene planning do at FoM or what she actualy will ? If the first one , I agree with Majsju . If the second one , I think Moiraine and her new knowledge will be the key factors of Egwene and Rand disput about the Seals .

[Samhain]

I think her only option is to bar female Aes Sedai cooperation.

[Manscher]

Just like FarShainMael, I suspect Egwene to be under the effect of compulsion from Aran'gar, and I think that might be the cause for this whole "forcing her hand" line of thoughts.

[XXX]

No but having them have her back will lend weight to her words in arguing with Rand. She intends to oppose him. To do that she must first make him listen. He's given a very generalized, and quite patronizing gesture that he will listen to her, but she is not trusting that. Marsheling others in her support will lend her words more weight.

 

 

That has nothing to do with stopping him breaking the seals...her stated purpose was that she hoped he would not "force her hand" in the matter of breaking the seals.

[Luckers]

No but having them have her back will lend weight to her words in arguing with Rand. She intends to oppose him. To do that she must first make him listen. He's given a very generalized, and quite patronizing gesture that he will listen to her, but she is not trusting that. Marsheling others in her support will lend her words more weight.

 

 

That has nothing to do with stopping him breaking the seals...her stated purpose was that she hoped he would not "force her hand" in the matter of breaking the seals.

 

 

Doesn't it? Egwene has proven herself very capable at subverting people to her cause.

[Suttree]

And the AS have fallen a long way from KoD anyway.

 

What?!?! The WT has been reunited, rooted out the Forsken/BA influence and started reforms looking to the future. It most certainly has not fallen a long way since KoD.

 

Thinking this might end in some sort of armed confrontation is just a ridiculous wish fulfillment fantasy on xxx's part.

[Elan Tedronai]

in any other book, in any other situation, any character would be simply be laughed at and ridiculed. ridiculed for smashing the seals without any sort of plan. ridiculed for relying on some bimbo lover for advice and ofcourse ridiculed for being arrogant to the point of simply dismissing people's opinions out of hand right away without providing any sort of explanation.

 

But hey it's rand al thor.

 

Certain residents of dragonmount always like to say that the egwene character is badly written. I disagree. I have never read a book or a series where the main character is so unlikeable and unrelatable. This is truly characterised by 'zen' rand strolling into the white tower arrogantly and basically telling everyone what he intended and proceeded to walk away just like that.

 

Yep this guy is destined to save the world. i rather shaitan took over

[Manscher]

Such terrible trolling attempts Elan, you are really weakening :(

[XXX]

No but having them have her back will lend weight to her words in arguing with Rand. She intends to oppose him. To do that she must first make him listen. He's given a very generalized, and quite patronizing gesture that he will listen to her, but she is not trusting that. Marsheling others in her support will lend her words more weight.

 

 

That has nothing to do with stopping him breaking the seals...her stated purpose was that she hoped he would not "force her hand" in the matter of breaking the seals.

 

 

Doesn't it? Egwene has proven herself very capable at subverting people to her cause.

 

But how does that prevent Rand from breaking the seals?

 

I see only 2 ways

 

1) Incapacitate him and take the seals away from him if possible

 

2) Kill him