What will Egwene do at FOM?

[XXX]

The Aiel are related by blood and title to Rand...so while they might respect Egwene, trying to actively oppose their chief may be too much.

 

Anyway leaving them and the AS aside..there are 25 odd AS sworn to the Dragon. 51 AS bonded to Asha'man so that is 76 AS who answer to the Dragon not Egwene. Alivia the strongest female channeler bar the forsaken is sworn to the Dragon. Highly doubtful if Egwene can direct Cads,Ny or Moriane. Cads and Ny already know his plan and do not plan to oppose him. Plus we have the Seachan who are not under Egwene's authority and have hundreds of channelers.

 

LTT needed 7 female channelers and he could not even get that. It is pretty safe to assume that Rand has a lot more female channelers than that sworn to him directly or indirectly.

 

Egwene has nothing close to Letra's authority here.

[Kahsm]

The Aiel are related by blood and title to Rand...so while they might respect Egwene, trying to actively oppose their chief may be too much.

 

Anyway leaving them and the AS aside..there are 25 odd AS sworn to the Dragon. 51 AS bonded to Asha'man so that is 76 AS who answer to the Dragon not Egwene. Alivia the strongest female channeler bar the forsaken is sworn to the Dragon. Highly doubtful if Egwene can direct Cads,Ny or Moriane. Cads and Ny already know his plan and do not plan to oppose him. Plus we have the Seachan who are not under Egwene's authority and have hundreds of channelers.

 

LTT needed 7 female channelers and he could not even get that. It is pretty safe to assume that Rand has a lot more female channelers than that sworn to him directly or indirectly.

 

Egwene has nothing close to Letra's authority here.

 

Cads and Nyn may decide that Rand must get Egwene on side first however, and help him do it. Since they are also still Aes Sedai. And the rest are irrelevant, Rand wouldn't do anything drastic without Nyn at his side.

[XXX]

That is immaterial..the fact is Rand has dozens of female channelers(including the most powerful one on the light side sworn to him) on his side...hundreds if he manages to make peace with the Seachan.

 

There is no comparison between Letra's control where she managed to deny LTT even 7 female channelers compared to what Egwene can do. She simply does not have the same influence.

[Kahsm]

That is immaterial..the fact is Rand has dozens of female channelers(including the most powerful one on the light side sworn to him) on his side...hundreds if he manages to make peace with the Seachan.

 

There is no comparison between Letra's control where she managed to deny LTT even 7 female channelers compared to what Egwene can do. She simply does not have the same influence.

 

Or she has the same influence, but there are more factions now.

[XXX]

You are correct in a way..she has influence among the AS but the AS are not the only set of channelers now..not even the biggest.

[AquilaInfernus]

The success or otherwise of Egwene's actions is immaterial, the discussion is what she intends to do. We know Nyneave is the 6th strongest Saidar channeler in Randland (where the hell is this quote/list?) and I believe only Alivia is stronger and unaligned with any of Egwene's alliance. Everyone else of required strength is beholden to accept the opinions of Egwene, the Wise Ones, Mistress of Ships or the Empress. Remember everyone weaker that Moiraine and Suian and Elaida were is probably not up to the task... (or so I'm assuming)

 

I agree that Nyneave, Moiraine and/or Cadsuane may reject the wishes of the Amyrlin Seat and do as Rand says, but no one in their right mind would just roll over and say "break the seals, we'll help, I don't care if you've got no idea what happens next". This is the whole justification for opposition.

[FarShainMael]

Right here: Saidar strength ranking. It shows Nynaeve as strength 18, Lanfear 21, Cyndane and Alivia 20. So Nyn isn't the sixth strongest, in fact she's one of the fourth. Even better!

 

" The success or otherwise of Egwene's actions is immaterial, the discussion is what she intends to do. " Will she ask herself 'will this work' before she decides? I know there are those on the boards who will say 'of course she won't, she'll just charge ahead'...

[XXX]

The success or otherwise of Egwene's actions is immaterial, the discussion is what she intends to do. We know Nyneave is the 6th strongest Saidar channeler in Randland (where the hell is this quote/list?) and I believe only Alivia is stronger and unaligned with any of Egwene's alliance. Everyone else of required strength is beholden to accept the opinions of Egwene, the Wise Ones, Mistress of Ships or the Empress. Remember everyone weaker that Moiraine and Suian and Elaida were is probably not up to the task... (or so I'm assuming)

 

I agree that Nyneave, Moiraine and/or Cadsuane may reject the wishes of the Amyrlin Seat and do as Rand says, but no one in their right mind would just roll over and say "break the seals, we'll help, I don't care if you've got no idea what happens next". This is the whole justification for opposition.

 

 

Ny knows exactly what Rand is going to do and she promised to go with him..so it is immaterial what Egwene says,Ny keeps her word. Cads knows what Rand is going to do but has not said a word in protest so we assume she is going along with the plan too.

 

BTW I am not sure Rand needs help to break the seals..he needs help to build it back up again.

[DemandredFO]

The thing Rand probably will need is female sa'angreal, my guess at least one, also as many angreal as possible so that's what he'll need permission unless he can find enough in the stores he has under his control. True he has more than enough channelers to help at Shayol Ghul but he does need sa'angreal and angreal to go with the armies. He might need Egwene or the Red Ajah because the Reds have the most experience outside of Cadsuane probably of fighting channellers and I'm thinking they'll be at least few of those trying to stop Rand. Is it 2012 yet?

[Himiko]

The thing Rand probably will need is female sa'angreal, my guess at least one, also as many angreal as possible so that's what he'll need permission unless he can find enough in the stores he has under his control. True he has more than enough channelers to help at Shayol Ghul but he does need sa'angreal and angreal to go with the armies. He might need Egwene or the Red Ajah because the Reds have the most experience outside of Cadsuane probably of fighting channellers and I'm thinking they'll be at least few of those trying to stop Rand. Is it 2012 yet?

 

It would be good to see some Reds kicking arse- and yes, logically, they have the most experience (as an Ajah) in fighting/ subduing male channelers, and there'll certainly be call for that at the LB. By which I mean- it would be awesome to get a Teslyn scene *looks hopeful*

 

As far as what Egwene will do... I suspect she will try and pressure/ convince/ force (pick whatever you feel like) the armies into not going along with Rand's plan. Sure, he could just break the seals and throw the world into the LB, and then people would have to help him, and to fight. But from what we've seen, it seems that Egwene doesn't want him to break the seals, so presumably will be trying to stop him from getting to this stage. Perhaps she hopes to argue him out of it, perhaps she hopes that enough voices speaking against him will force him to agree. Likely she will try and use the WT's influences over the world to accomplish this- her alliances with Windfinders and Wise ONes, the WT's political power in Randland, etc. The issue she will find, I imagine, is that many of the same people linked to her are also linked to Rand- the Aiel and the Seafolk, for example. There are many rulers who seem to be leaning towards siding with Rand- not least Perrin, with a large force of his own. Rand also has several AS sworn to him, Nynaeve has sworn to go to Shayol Ghul with him, and has been quite open with the AS that she intends to honour that promise, and I imagine, if convinced that his method has merit, Casuane and Moiraine would be willing to go against the Tower. Not necessarily in an antagonistic manner- they may well suggest an agreement being reached beforehand.

 

Overall, I don't think Egwene is likely to do anything so stupid as try and attack, shield or otherwise imprison the DR- if only because there would be no way for BS to write that without Egwene looking like a fool ending up on her arse in the dirt :P (that was, at least in part, meant in jest, I don't mean nor wish to start off a debate on how well Egwene is written ;) ) I find it much more likely that she is intending to persuade Rand through the sheer number of people that will side with her. We, the readers, have seen more of the people concerned in this case, whilst Egwene has been dealing with WT matters, and so we know that there is a very real possibility that, far from being awed by the size of her "side", those in agreement with Rand may exceed it, due to the various influences he has. Bear in mind, Egwene is very pro-WT, and, up until the split, was taught that kings bowed to the Amyrlin, etc. I'm sure she realises that the WT may have lost a lot of its mystique, and united, strong appearance, due to the split, but she may not realise quite the extent to which Rand's influence has reached. We know that the rulers are not all leaping to her cause quite as readily as she would like, so perhaps this is becoming clearer to her. The reason may be this simple.

[XXX]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Cads the most experienced at gentling men..and her total is around 20. So I would not put much store in the Red Ajah's fighting skills...they were running around as fast as the others when the Seachan attacked and the group sent to destroy the BT folded in without even a fight

[Suttree]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Cads the most experienced at gentling men..and her total is around 20. So I would not put much store in the Red Ajah's fighting skills...they were running around as fast as the others when the Seachan attacked and the group sent to destroy the BT folded in without even a fight

 

I would hold of judgement on the AS who went to the BT. There is the whole "The Black Tower would be rent in fire and blood […] and sisters would walk its grounds” (TPoD, Ch. 25) thing still to come...

[XXX]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Cads the most experienced at gentling men..and her total is around 20. So I would not put much store in the Red Ajah's fighting skills...they were running around as fast as the others when the Seachan attacked and the group sent to destroy the BT folded in without even a fight

 

I would hold of judgement on the AS who went to the BT. There is the whole "The Black Tower would be rent in fire and blood […] and sisters would walk its grounds” (TPoD, Ch. 25) thing still to come...

 

 

Those AS are bonded to Logain's men and will surely see action when he attacks Taim most probably along with the AS camping outside the BT at the moment.

 

That does not take away from the fact that they got ambushed and easily subdued when they tried to attack the BT originally.

[Suttree]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Cads the most experienced at gentling men..and her total is around 20. So I would not put much store in the Red Ajah's fighting skills...they were running around as fast as the others when the Seachan attacked and the group sent to destroy the BT folded in without even a fight

 

I would hold of judgement on the AS who went to the BT. There is the whole "The Black Tower would be rent in fire and blood […] and sisters would walk its grounds” (TPoD, Ch. 25) thing still to come...

 

 

Those AS are bonded to Logain's men and will surely see action when he attacks Taim most probably along with the AS camping outside the BT at the moment.

 

That does not take away from the fact that they got ambushed and easily subdued when they tried to attack the BT originally.

 

It would be sick to see Pevara get in on the action as well. I've always thought there is something special planned for her and with her hatred of DFs it could be a pretty cool scene.

[Luckers]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Cads the most experienced at gentling men..and her total is around 20. So I would not put much store in the Red Ajah's fighting skills...they were running around as fast as the others when the Seachan attacked and the group sent to destroy the BT folded in without even a fight

 

I would hold of judgement on the AS who went to the BT. There is the whole "The Black Tower would be rent in fire and blood […] and sisters would walk its grounds” (TPoD, Ch. 25) thing still to come...

 

 

Those AS are bonded to Logain's men and will surely see action when he attacks Taim most probably along with the AS camping outside the BT at the moment.

 

That does not take away from the fact that they got ambushed and easily subdued when they tried to attack the BT originally.

 

It would be sick to see Pevara get in on the action as well. I've always thought there is something special planned for her and with her hatred of DFs it could be a pretty cool scene.

 

 

Have you seen my theory on this? It's not updated for ToM obviously, but I actually think that Pevara, not Taim, will be the one to oust Taim and his men.

[MasterAblar]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Cads the most experienced at gentling men..and her total is around 20. So I would not put much store in the Red Ajah's fighting skills...they were running around as fast as the others when the Seachan attacked and the group sent to destroy the BT folded in without even a fight

 

I would hold of judgement on the AS who went to the BT. There is the whole "The Black Tower would be rent in fire and blood […] and sisters would walk its grounds” (TPoD, Ch. 25) thing still to come...

 

 

Those AS are bonded to Logain's men and will surely see action when he attacks Taim most probably along with the AS camping outside the BT at the moment.

 

That does not take away from the fact that they got ambushed and easily subdued when they tried to attack the BT originally.

 

It would be sick to see Pevara get in on the action as well. I've always thought there is something special planned for her and with her hatred of DFs it could be a pretty cool scene.

 

 

Have you seen my theory on this? It's not updated for ToM obviously, but I actually think that Pevara, not Taim, will be the one to oust Taim and his men.

 

Well it does seem rather unlikely that Taim will oust Taim.

[Kahsm]

As far as what Egwene will do... I suspect she will try and pressure/ convince/ force (pick whatever you feel like) the armies into not going along with Rand's plan. Sure, he could just break the seals and throw the world into the LB, and then people would have to help him, and to fight. But from what we've seen, it seems that Egwene doesn't want him to break the seals, so presumably will be trying to stop him from getting to this stage. Perhaps she hopes to argue him out of it, perhaps she hopes that enough voices speaking against him will force him to agree. Likely she will try and use the WT's influences over the world to accomplish this- her alliances with Windfinders and Wise ONes, the WT's political power in Randland, etc. The issue she will find, I imagine, is that many of the same people linked to her are also linked to Rand- the Aiel and the Seafolk, for example. There are many rulers who seem to be leaning towards siding with Rand- not least Perrin, with a large force of his own. Rand also has several AS sworn to him, Nynaeve has sworn to go to Shayol Ghul with him, and has been quite open with the AS that she intends to honour that promise, and I imagine, if convinced that his method has merit, Casuane and Moiraine would be willing to go against the Tower. Not necessarily in an antagonistic manner- they may well suggest an agreement being reached beforehand.

 

Overall, I don't think Egwene is likely to do anything so stupid as try and attack, shield or otherwise imprison the DR- if only because there would be no way for BS to write that without Egwene looking like a fool ending up on her arse in the dirt :P (that was, at least in part, meant in jest, I don't mean nor wish to start off a debate on how well Egwene is written ;) ) I find it much more likely that she is intending to persuade Rand through the sheer number of people that will side with her. We, the readers, have seen more of the people concerned in this case, whilst Egwene has been dealing with WT matters, and so we know that there is a very real possibility that, far from being awed by the size of her "side", those in agreement with Rand may exceed it, due to the various influences he has. Bear in mind, Egwene is very pro-WT, and, up until the split, was taught that kings bowed to the Amyrlin, etc. I'm sure she realises that the WT may have lost a lot of its mystique, and united, strong appearance, due to the split, but she may not realise quite the extent to which Rand's influence has reached. We know that the rulers are not all leaping to her cause quite as readily as she would like, so perhaps this is becoming clearer to her. The reason may be this simple.

 

It's a little sad that your post got hijacked by all the opinions on your first 2 lines lol, but I'll try to bring it back!

 

This all makes sense to me, and is a far more reasonable and polite way of saying what I have been saying.

[Gabby]

I dream of one day logging on to Dragonmount and not seeing a new Egwene bashing thread.

 

I doubt that will ever happen. Everyone hates Egwene, so... (shrugs).

[Alleluia_Cone]

I'm surprised nobody ever brought Rand's thoughts on this issue into the discussion given that he considers the possibility that those gathered will not bend to his wishes. Here are the relevant passages:

 

The Cairhienin were Elayne’s now, by reports, and were coming through with the Andorans and a large number of men from the Band of the Red Hand. Egwene had sent an offer, and a woman to offer Traveling, to King Roedran of Murandy, but she was uncertain if he would come. Even without him, however, a considerable number of the world’s nations were represented here, particularly since the flags of Ghealdan and Mayene could be seen among Perrin’s armies. She would have to contact their two rulers and see if she could sway them to her way of thinking. But even if not, surely what she had gathered would be enough to convince Rand to change his plans. Light send it was enough. She didn’t want to think of what would happen if he forced her hand.

 

Jordan, Robert; Sanderson, Brandon (2011-01-31). Towers of Midnight (p. 816). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

 

Important to consider here is that Egwene is contemplating what she might do if all of her diplomatic efforts fail. Too many of the posters have ignored that distinction. The original thread-starter was asking what Egwene would do if Rand straight out refused her efforts and was not convinced by her arguments -- not what she would initially do.

 

Personally, I don't think she has truly planned for that possibility. The passage itself seems to indicate that. Egwene is confident in her plan, something she indicates to Gawyn earlier, while being largely clueless that her support is not what she thinks it is. She even says she doesn't want to think about what she would do if her plan is not enough. Which makes me think that, whatever she does to counter Rand, if it comes to that, will be spur of the moment.

 

On the morrow, they’d hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals—he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One. He wasn’t certain what he’d do if they refused him. They’d find it very difficult to do so. Sometimes, it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational.

 

Jordan, Robert; Sanderson, Brandon (2011-01-31). Towers of Midnight (pp. 839-840). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

 

I actually find Rand's thoughts on the matter more fascinating. He's almost as confident as Egwene that everyone will bend to his view but whereas Egwene's passage seems to make it sound as if Egwene really doesn't have a Plan B yet, Rand's is far more telling. He says the world's leaders would find refusing his demands "very difficult to do." Is he referring to his ta'vereness or something else?

 

Far more ominous is his second thought on the matter, that it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational. Now, what does that mean? Is he going to threaten those there if they don't bend to his wishes? Will he refuse to participate in saving the world if not done under his plan?

 

In some ways, we already have a precedent for such behavior. Remember Rand's ultimatum to the Borderlanders? In other words, he's willing to leave behind potential allies if they don't bend to his wishes. And, in some ways, he might be in a position to do so.

 

He does have over 75 Aes Sedai that would have to obey him, if push came to shove. Perrin is on board. And while Egwene might be able to convince some nations to oppose his plans, far more questionable is how many would refuse his orders. It's unlikely that the Aiel would actually disobey Rand's commands. The Borderlanders are unlikely to either, given how serious they take their oaths. And as for Tear and Illian, to not do what Rand says would basically constitute open rebellion.

 

Not that it will come to all that. I actually doubt this confrontation will play out like either Rand or Egwene think it will. But it is interesting to consider the possibilities if both Rand and Egwene remain resolute.

 

What then?

[MasterAblar]

I'm surprised nobody ever brought Rand's thoughts on this issue into the discussion given that he considers the possibility that those gathered will not bend to his wishes. Here are the relevant passages:

 

The Cairhienin were Elayne’s now, by reports, and were coming through with the Andorans and a large number of men from the Band of the Red Hand. Egwene had sent an offer, and a woman to offer Traveling, to King Roedran of Murandy, but she was uncertain if he would come. Even without him, however, a considerable number of the world’s nations were represented here, particularly since the flags of Ghealdan and Mayene could be seen among Perrin’s armies. She would have to contact their two rulers and see if she could sway them to her way of thinking. But even if not, surely what she had gathered would be enough to convince Rand to change his plans. Light send it was enough. She didn’t want to think of what would happen if he forced her hand.

 

Jordan, Robert; Sanderson, Brandon (2011-01-31). Towers of Midnight (p. 816). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

 

Important to consider here is that Egwene is contemplating what she might do if all of her diplomatic efforts fail. Too many of the posters have ignored that distinction. The original thread-starter was asking what Egwene would do if Rand straight out refused her efforts and was not convinced by her arguments -- not what she would initially do.

 

Personally, I don't think she has truly planned for that possibility. The passage itself seems to indicate that. Egwene is confident in her plan, something she indicates to Gawyn earlier, while being largely clueless that her support is not what she thinks it is. She even says she doesn't want to think about what she would do if her plan is not enough. Which makes me think that, whatever she does to counter Rand, if it comes to that, will be spur of the moment.

 

On the morrow, they’d hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals—he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One. He wasn’t certain what he’d do if they refused him. They’d find it very difficult to do so. Sometimes, it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational.

 

Jordan, Robert; Sanderson, Brandon (2011-01-31). Towers of Midnight (pp. 839-840). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

 

I actually find Rand's thoughts on the matter more fascinating. He's almost as confident as Egwene that everyone will bend to his view but whereas Egwene's passage seems to make it sound as if Egwene really doesn't have a Plan B yet, Rand's is far more telling. He says the world's leaders would find refusing his demands "very difficult to do." Is he referring to his ta'vereness or something else?

 

Far more ominous is his second thought on the matter, that it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational. Now, what does that mean? Is he going to threaten those there if they don't bend to his wishes? Will he refuse to participate in saving the world if not done under his plan?

 

In some ways, we already have a precedent for such behavior. Remember Rand's ultimatum to the Borderlanders? In other words, he's willing to leave behind potential allies if they don't bend to his wishes. And, in some ways, he might be in a position to do so.

 

He does have over 75 Aes Sedai that would have to obey him, if push came to shove. Perrin is on board. And while Egwene might be able to convince some nations to oppose his plans, far more questionable is how many would refuse his orders. It's unlikely that the Aiel would actually disobey Rand's commands. The Borderlanders are unlikely to either, given how serious they take their oaths. And as for Tear and Illian, to not do what Rand says would basically constitute open rebellion.

 

Not that it will come to all that. I actually doubt this confrontation will play out like either Rand or Egwene think it will. But it is interesting to consider the possibilities if both Rand and Egwene remain resolute.

 

What then?

 

When he says that it would be difficult to refuse him I think he means that, not only does he have a great amount of influence, but also he's probably going to make demands of them in exchange for him going to SG to face the DO.

[Hopefire]

I suspect that Rand will go into the meeting having already broken the Seals. Once the Seals have been broken the options of the Light will be extremely limited. Even if they don't like or trust Rand, they'll have very little choice in the matter. At worst, they'd get out of his way.

 

Trying to capture, restrain or otherwise hold back the Dragon at that point would be just asking for trouble.

[damandred]

I think Rands demands are going to be the Dragons peace, that looms large in aviendha's vision in ToM chapter Court of the Sun.

[mb]

An idea that occured to me some time ago:

Maybe Egwene would attempt to steal the seals; or have one of her followers make the attempt.

[MasterAblar]

An idea that occured to me some time ago:

Maybe Egwene would attempt to steal the seals; or have one of her followers make the attempt.

 

She doesn't know who has them though. Hell, we don't know who has them.

[mb]

Though she (or the person she sends) might find out before the time.

 

Or perhaps Rand would display the seals in front of everybody.