Cadsuane Black Ajah?

[Dopash]

Well,as the title says,either the Three Oaths leave wiggle room for sarcasm(and I never knew it did),or Cadsuane is Black Ajah. Dont know if anyone commented on this before but on TGS Ch31 Cadsuane is talking to one of his informants in Bandar Eban,while questioning him for information conversation goes as follows:

"There are Aiel in the city,Lady"Quillin said,scrubbing at an invisible spot on the tabletop.

She gave him a flat stare."I hadn't noticed"

I can fully appreciate the fact that she is being sarcastic,but as far as I know the Three Oaths dont care about sarcasm,just about talking the truth,and "I hadnt noticed"is pretty obviously not the truth.So whats up?RJ/BS dropped the ball?sarcasm is allowed?Cadsuane Black Ajah?

[David Selig]

RJ said straight out that the Oaths allow for sarcasm.

[Dopash]

Ok,my bad then,thx for the clarification

[Dakota]

Also, there was a scene somewhere around book 7 or book 8 where Verin was asking Cadusane a bunch of questions, presumeably to see of she was Black Ajah or not, and came away satisfied that she wasn't. Given how thorough that Verin was in identifying the rest of the Black Ajah, I think it's fairly safe to say that Cadsuane isn't black.

[brolie]

i never even thought about cadsuane being black until NS when moiraine keeps bringing it up, but i still dont think she is

[SheaththeSword]

Oaths only prevent lies if the speaker believes they are lying. They do not stop the speaker ftom telling an untruth, if they believe it is the truth. Obviously a similar effect is seen with sarcasm - they believe that only a woll-headed fool could think they were being serious, so it is not a lie.

 

The oaths should really prevent a woman from deceiving, rather than lying. If they knew they were going to cause the impression of an untruth, the oath would then stop them.

[JKN-SW]

I think it's pretty obvious from the chapters written from Cad's POV that she is not BA.

[Luckers]

Winters heart chapter... Umm...10 or13. It's called 'wonderful news' in it cadsuane thinks to herself about an attempt she made to route out the black ajah. It's made quite clear there that she's not black herself.

[JKN-SW]

Winters heart chapter... Umm...10 or13. It's called 'wonderful news' in it cadsuane thinks to herself about an attempt she made to route out the black ajah. It's made quite clear there that she's not black herself.

Right, had forgotten about that. Then it's not only obvious, it's certain.

[solarz]

Well,as the title says,either the Three Oaths leave wiggle room for sarcasm(and I never knew it did),or Cadsuane is Black Ajah. Dont know if anyone commented on this before but on TGS Ch31 Cadsuane is talking to one of his informants in Bandar Eban,while questioning him for information conversation goes as follows:

"There are Aiel in the city,Lady"Quillin said,scrubbing at an invisible spot on the tabletop.

She gave him a flat stare."I hadn't noticed"

I can fully appreciate the fact that she is being sarcastic,but as far as I know the Three Oaths dont care about sarcasm,just about talking the truth,and "I hadnt noticed"is pretty obviously not the truth.So whats up?RJ/BS dropped the ball?sarcasm is allowed?Cadsuane Black Ajah?

 

The Three Oaths are psychological in nature and are not some kind of reality-bending magic that enforces the Oaths in an objective manner. It is, in fact, very much like compulsion.

 

Therefore, as long as the Aes Sedai doesn't *think* she's lying -- and that includes use of sarcasm or plain ignorance -- she can say whatever she likes. Same thing with "using the Power as a weapon". They can create switches of Air, or stilling people to their heart's content, as long as they don't consider those applications to be "weapons", they can make use of them.

 

So if you trick an Aes Sedai into thinking that a populated house is empty, you can have her balefire the house and kill everyone inside.

[Dagon Thyne]

Well,as the title says,either the Three Oaths leave wiggle room for sarcasm(and I never knew it did),or Cadsuane is Black Ajah. Dont know if anyone commented on this before but on TGS Ch31 Cadsuane is talking to one of his informants in Bandar Eban,while questioning him for information conversation goes as follows:

"There are Aiel in the city,Lady"Quillin said,scrubbing at an invisible spot on the tabletop.

She gave him a flat stare."I hadn't noticed"

I can fully appreciate the fact that she is being sarcastic,but as far as I know the Three Oaths dont care about sarcasm,just about talking the truth,and "I hadnt noticed"is pretty obviously not the truth.So whats up?RJ/BS dropped the ball?sarcasm is allowed?Cadsuane Black Ajah?

 

The Three Oaths are psychological in nature and are not some kind of reality-bending magic that enforces the Oaths in an objective manner. It is, in fact, very much like compulsion.

 

Therefore, as long as the Aes Sedai doesn't *think* she's lying -- and that includes use of sarcasm or plain ignorance -- she can say whatever she likes. Same thing with "using the Power as a weapon". They can create switches of Air, or stilling people to their heart's content, as long as they don't consider those applications to be "weapons", they can make use of them.

 

So if you trick an Aes Sedai into thinking that a populated house is empty, you can have her balefire the house and kill everyone inside.

 

 

The same is true abut "Creationg" a weapon using the one power.....If an Aes Sedai discovered a way to turn a premade weapon into a power wraught weapon, they could. Because it would not actualy be creating it, only enhancing it's abiities.

 

And for the part about balefire....Balefire does not actually kill....It burns people out of existence....You can't kill someone if they don't exist.

[Shimmer]

I was almost disappointed when I realised Cadsuane absolutely could not be Black Ajah...if she was it would be so much easier for me to dislike her. Now I'm just stuck in limbo.

[bsmnt23]

I was almost disappointed when I realised Cadsuane absolutely could not be Black Ajah...if she was it would be so much easier for me to dislike her. Now I'm just stuck in limbo.

 

 

It's still OK to dislike her, she's an Aes Sedai; King on your throne or cowherd in your pasture, they view you the same: a tool easily disposed of. And she's even worse than most.

[Luckers]

RJ has confirmed the Oaths permit sarcasm. The key is in whether the Aes Sedai thinks she will be believed--the example he used was that an Aes Sedai could sarcastically say a white cloth was black, but not if, say, she was talking to a blind person who might believe the comment. The same goes for idle threats like when Siuan told Alanna she'd gut her like a fish during Egwene Accepted Test. She would never have actually gutted Alanna, and she knew Alanna knew that, and thus had Alanna failed she would not have been compelled to actually follow through on the threat.

[JKN-SW]

RJ has confirmed the Oaths permit sarcasm. The key is in whether the Aes Sedai thinks she will be believed--the example he used was that an Aes Sedai could sarcastically say a white cloth was black, but not if, say, she was talking to a blind person who might believe the comment. The same goes for idle threats like when Siuan told Alanna she'd gut her like a fish during Egwene Accepted Test. She would never have actually gutted Alanna, and she knew Alanna knew that, and thus had Alanna failed she would not have been compelled to actually follow through on the threat.

 

The whole truth/lie thing is pretty inconsistent, isn't it? For example Vering tells Egwene her dress is a different colour than it really is, to show her she can lie. Would Egwene belive that? Of course not, and Vering knows it, so according to RJ:s explanation above, that would not count as breaking the oath. I know I have read of other incidents where Aes Sedai have tried to speak what is, obviously for everyone present not true, but have been unable to utter the words. Oh well, I guess a concept like that can be really hard to keep consistent for 13 books.

[Rose]

I remember somewhere in books 7 or 8, when the Black Ajah hunters find out how to remove an oath, they get rid of the oath against lying and start laughing hysterically when they realize they can say as many ridiculously false things as they want (such as "the streets of Tar Valon are made of gold" or something like that). That doesn't really make sense, since they should be able to say those things anyways if they knew they would not be believed. And the Seanchan also note that Aes Sedai who have been made damane cannot be forced to say the simplest lie (I might be wrong but I think there was an example about color, again). So yeah, it's not really consistent.

[rcfleming4]

No, it's not consistent but it allows for more interesting dialogue.

 

Of course the whole 'Speak no word that is not true' allows for a huge amount of wiggle room. How can a word by itself be untrue?

[SylvanFox]

I think it has more to do with whether or not the AS believes it than whether anyone else believes it. If she's being sarcastic, she doesn't believe it... but she doesn't believe she's lying either.

[RyanL24]

No, it's not consistent but it allows for more interesting dialogue.

 

Of course the whole 'Speak no word that is not true' allows for a huge amount of wiggle room. How can a word by itself be untrue?

 

That's a really good point. If an AS decided that oath meant she could not use the word "false" she could lie to her hearts content... as long as she never used the word that is "not true".

[buckeyebull64]

This is not the case (i think), but being as Cads is such a renegade, I could see her renouncing the oaths and taking new ones that only she knew and deemed more appropriate. Just an amusing thought really.

[True Source Creator]

I don't even know to what Ajah Cadsuane belong(ed) when in the White Tower. ???

[Manscher]

Green

[CaseyWoL]

Cadsuane is the sort of character I have respect but not love for. The way she makes you hate her for her treatment of Rand, but then turns around and has some kind of justification behind it that makes you go "oh ok, well that was sort of necessary". I think it would be too convenient for Casduane to be Black Ajah. She's like a mind game drill sergeant, ordering Rand to do things in the rudest, cringe-worthy fashion possible, but who ends up being right anyways.

[XXX]

She is like the Aunt who is always right but really brash.

[lilltempest]

She is like the Aunt who is always right but really brash.

 

Funny, to me she seems more like the obnoxious aunt who thinks she is always right but actually has no clue whatsoever. But, since she's so loud and mean, no one ever sets her straight.