Forsaken Conversions

[mb]

Vote then tell reasons.

 

Purposely excluded the confirmed dead Forsaken since it is unlikely for them to be resurrected.

 

If you wish, you may speculate on "how" for each one you voted.

[True Source Creator]

Demandred...lol

[Luckers]

Graendal, because she would be the most able to mess with the Shadow (her insights into their natures and so forth).

 

Indeed, I'm actually wondering if she might not turn at a crucial moment--she said she was only ever in it for the immortality, and given the way the Shadow has treated her recently she has reasons to not only doubt it, but fear it--immortality in Moghedien or Cyndane's role would not be appealing. She's also no coward.

[Amadine]

Graendal, because she would be the most able to mess with the Shadow (her insights into their natures and so forth).

 

Indeed, I'm actually wondering if she might not turn at a crucial moment--she said she was only ever in it for the immortality, and given the way the Shadow has treated her recently she has reasons to not only doubt it, but fear it--immortality in Moghedien or Cyndane's role would not be appealing. She's also no coward.

 

Agreed, and if she finds out the DO plans to let the pattern unravel completely and end everything i think she will run towards the light as fast as she can.

[Luckers]

Especially if she gets cornered by the Light--Sammael's foreshadowing comments in LoC; 6, Threads of Woven Shadow.

 

Is it bad that I can pull chapter references off the top of my head?

[Jay Aldridge]

I vote for Cyndane/Lanfear. She always seemed less gung ho than the rest. Also seemed like she was only supporting the DO to spite LTT.

[Cainam]

Yea i vote for lanfear/cyndane. In the earlier novels she was plotting against the DO anyway. and she is inlove with LTT.

[True Source Creator]

Perfect ending:

 

Cyndane joins Rand, kills DO, and then kills Creator, and together she and Rand, the Brad/Angelina of Randland, rule the WoT for all eternity. Mwhahahaha!

[mb]

Moridin because of the "balefire bond".

Moghedien because she spent a considerable amount of time with Light sided characters.

Cyndane because of her former love for the main guy.

 

 

One likely way for Moridin might be through the mentioned bond.

Moghedien & Cyndane possibly through the coursouvra if Moridin becomes converted.

 

Another way for any of them might be if some Light-sided channeler finds a way to force to the Light.

One way on that might be channeling through Nym instead of through Myrddraal.

[Superhal]

Wow, I would have guessed Lanfear to be the least likely to return to the light because the only thing she wants in the whole world is the love of LTT, and she can't get it without the DO's help. She's too shortsighted to understand that she needs to change to become the person LTT wants, not force LTT to love her.

 

My guess would be Graendal, given how much she's been abused by the DO, Shaidar Haran, Moridin, etc. I can see her harboring resentment and thoughts of revenge like Alivia.

[Southpaw89]

I don't think the merge will turn Moridin. If anything it'll kill him or have him take control. I think Graendal is most likely to turn but still won't have much effect on matters and Cyndane/Lanfear might have a change of heart as she dies in I'm assuming might be Rands arms which would put an ending to the Lews Therin/Mieron (however you spell her real name) relationship.

[mb]

Just added Mesaana to my vote; because of being somewhat close to Light-sided characters.

Aes Sedia might find a way to "reform" her (if she was not executed).

[Luckers]

Just added Mesaana to my vote; because of being somewhat close to Light-sided characters.

Aes Sedia might find a way to "reform" her (if she was not executed).

 

Egwene broke her mind. According to Bair people don't recover from that--she'll be a drooling idiot for the rest of her life.

 

Of course Bair could be wrong--and its possible that Mesaana got cour'souvra'd after her failures in tGS...

[sandoz12]

Just added Mesaana to my vote; because of being somewhat close to Light-sided characters.

Aes Sedia might find a way to "reform" her (if she was not executed).

 

Egwene broke her mind. According to Bair people don't recover from that--she'll be a drooling idiot for the rest of her life.

 

 

Or until Messana gets killed by a d/f thus allowing her to be transmigrated.

 

As to the main topic - I think Graendal for reasons that have pretty much already been stated. She isn't beholden to serving the dark one - she will go to whoever offers her the best deal which at the moment is looking like the light side. She also doesn't want to die so if she thinks Rand is going to win she will jump.

 

Moridin is the other one I can see. He joined for philosophical reasons and so can see him switching for the same. If he sees that Rand can defeat the dark one both in the now and forever then he may well switch. If Rand's victory is going to be restricted to just the present age he certainly won't switch though.

[bsmnt23]

None of them. Why would you even entertain that idea? It's...disgusting...after what they have done. Any sane person would execute them on sight if they had the ability. If they were to ask forgiveness, send them directly to the Creator to ask, they've earned none. There is no "reform" for a mass-murderer, no redemption for anyone who could feed another person to a Trolloc. They've ALL done it, none of them feel the slightest bit of remorse, even Asmodin, the most lame of all the Forsaken severed his own mother and gave her to Mydraal to suffer their...entertainments. Among them the Forsaken include (mass)rapists, mass murderers (to include children in the AoL), mad scientists, obsessive madwomen, and sadistic torturers.

 

Golly, that sound like any group of individuals you want to pull from real history?

 

Evil is a very real thing. It cannot and should not ever be forgotten, nor can it be forgiven. The catechism "No one is so far gone to the dark that they cannot come back to the Light" may have some merit for someone like Verin or Ingtar but someone who has earned the appellation "Forsaken" speaks a great deal to their character; they are FORSAKEN to the light.

 

I keep seeing the topic of a Forsaken redemption on these boards, and I'm just coming out right now that and saying that the only redemption they all deserve is the redemption of the executioner's axe. Or Balefire.

[Ananta]

Moridin, since he's only on the dark side because he finds world/existence futile and useless.

 

Were he to come up with a reason to live, he might turn to the light side.

[Luckers]

It's like Asmodean. He turned because he had to, but he was still the same man who severed his own mother. One of the Forsaken turning on the Shadow does not redeem them, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

[Gordar]

None of them. Why would you even entertain that idea? It's...disgusting...after what they have done. Any sane person would execute them on sight if they had the ability. If they were to ask forgiveness, send them directly to the Creator to ask, they've earned none. There is no "reform" for a mass-murderer, no redemption for anyone who could feed another person to a Trolloc. They've ALL done it, none of them feel the slightest bit of remorse, even Asmodin, the most lame of all the Forsaken severed his own mother and gave her to Mydraal to suffer their...entertainments. Among them the Forsaken include (mass)rapists, mass murderers (to include children in the AoL), mad scientists, obsessive madwomen, and sadistic torturers.

 

Golly, that sound like any group of individuals you want to pull from real history?

 

Evil is a very real thing. It cannot and should not ever be forgotten, nor can it be forgiven. The catechism "No one is so far gone to the dark that they cannot come back to the Light" may have some merit for someone like Verin or Ingtar but someone who has earned the appellation "Forsaken" speaks a great deal to their character; they are FORSAKEN to the light.

 

I keep seeing the topic of a Forsaken redemption on these boards, and I'm just coming out right now that and saying that the only redemption they all deserve is the redemption of the executioner's axe. Or Balefire.

 

Considering the fact that they've only done the same things any war criminal/hero (depending on who wins) has done in our time/world, I think this reaction is too strong.

 

Anyway, I voted Moridin & Cyndane. Moridin is just a guess, but I'm pretty convinced Cyndane will turn back. She created the bore and it would be poetic justice if she also helps seal the bore. Besides, she's the only one remaining who actually knows how the bore was created (which might be necesary information).

[Mr Ares]

Especially if she gets cornered by the Light--Sammael's foreshadowing comments in LoC; 6, Threads of Woven Shadow.

 

Is it bad that I can pull chapter references off the top of my head?

Yes - if you leave them where they are they'll cover your bald spot.

 

 

None of them. Why would you even entertain that idea? It's...disgusting...after what they have done. Any sane person would execute them on sight if they had the ability. If they were to ask forgiveness, send them directly to the Creator to ask, they've earned none. There is no "reform" for a mass-murderer, no redemption for anyone who could feed another person to a Trolloc. They've ALL done it, none of them feel the slightest bit of remorse, even Asmodin, the most lame of all the Forsaken severed his own mother and gave her to Mydraal to suffer their...entertainments. Among them the Forsaken include (mass)rapists, mass murderers (to include children in the AoL), mad scientists, obsessive madwomen, and sadistic torturers.

 

Golly, that sound like any group of individuals you want to pull from real history?

 

Evil is a very real thing. It cannot and should not ever be forgotten, nor can it be forgiven. The catechism "No one is so far gone to the dark that they cannot come back to the Light" may have some merit for someone like Verin or Ingtar but someone who has earned the appellation "Forsaken" speaks a great deal to their character; they are FORSAKEN to the light.

 

I keep seeing the topic of a Forsaken redemption on these boards, and I'm just coming out right now that and saying that the only redemption they all deserve is the redemption of the executioner's axe. Or Balefire.

Their evil should not be forgiven, nor forgotten, but they can still be of use to the Light. If letting one of the Chosen turned increased the chances of bringing down the others, do you think it would be a price worth paying? Especially if t only means that justice is delayed. Sincere repentance is unlikely, but their own ambitions could cause them to betray their fellows.

[SuperFade]

Demandred - He only turned to the Shadow to one-up Lews Therin. If he manages to kill Rand then he would have no reason to continue supporting the Dark One, resurrection and/or bodyswap shennanigans notwithstanding.

 

Moridin - It was his logic that destroyed him, as Rand points out in TGS. With Zen Rand now in the picture and connected to Moridin, a last-minute regaining of faith for the nae'blis may be possible.

[Mr Hindley]

I voted Graendal, though without any great conviction - although she's my favourite villain, I think it's more likely that her role in the story is pretty much done, and that she'll join Moghedien in being a mindtrapped sub-villain who gets zapped in an unsatisfactory, throwaway fashion before the end.

 

But... something that has bugged me since reading ToM. In narrative terms, what is the purpose of keeping her alive after Natrin's Barrow? Why did RJ decide to set up a plot twist that meant she survived, only to use her for a plot against Perrin - whom she had previously had zero connection with - which any of the Forsaken could have done as well? He could just as easily have killed Graendal off at Natrin's Barrow, and used Aran'gar for the plot against Perrin. Much simpler. Maybe he specifically wanted to have Graendal fall from grace in the Shadow's eyes. But maybe there's a reason she's still around. Hmm. I'd like to think so, though I'm not convinced...

[FarShainMael]

Moridin, because of the link with Rand Sedai.

 

VoG must have been quite a shock for him.

[ironisles]

I chose Cyndane. Why? Because it's just possible she fully realizes how stupid she's been all this time. Or that part of his dream is a trap..also coming around would really slap Ishy's ego around.. but true he just might.

[Niniel]

I have hopes for Graendal. Eighter she will be the new Nae´blis or she will go over to Rands side.

 

In the end I think only Moggy, out of the forsaken, will survive. All that will die have died and the rest is happy over their victory (I assume Rand´s side will win). We will see a bit of the future and then, on the last page, when everything seems happy, we see Moggy crossing a streat in Camelyn... Or something like that.

[TheAngryDruid]

I'm for Cyndane/Lanfear. Moridin 2nd. Moggy third. Then Graendal.

 

Why have a conversion at all?

 

1. No one can walk so long in the Shadow they cannot be brought into the light. We've seen long standing servants of the Light go to the DO, how about one the other way?

2. The Title of the last book: A Memory of Light is awfully similar to phrasing Graendal uses in ToM: Writings when trying to talk her way out of trouble with Moridin. She say she remembered those first tentative steps to the Shadow, where doing evil still hurt. She believed Ishamael did to. Damandred was always rotten in her opinion. I think that a Memory of Light from one of the Forsaken will prove decisive in the LB, though I don't know if a full fledged turn to the Light will happen, so much as an abandonment of the DO. So, of those remaining (Moridin, Cyndane, Moggy, Graendal, Demandred, Messaana) only Demandred seems rotten to the core, and Messy has lost her mind. Any of the other 4 I'd say there is a shot.

 

1. Cyndane: has actively plotted against the DO from the beginning. She's already contemplated going against him. Plus she was in love (of a sort) with LTT/Rand. Plus, being raped all the time could sour you on you friends.

2. Moridin. Only went over when he concluded that fighting was pointless because defeat was inevitable. If one could get him to re-assess that conclusion, he seems possible.

3. Moggy. The ultimate survivor, if she becomes convinced that her survival means helping the Light, she might go over. Plus the whole rape thing and mindtrap thing.

4. Graendal. You'll take no pleasure dead. Again with the rape thing, in all probability.