What you dislike most about the series?

[Elvira_Sedai]

There are two things , which I dislike a lot in the series - Ta'verenness and Balefire effect . The first one makes characters own successes and development artificial and seams like compultion made by the pattern ( or the author if you prefer ) . The second one is a very cheap kind of save-load mechanism , making almost anything and everyone returnable .

[Superhal]

 

Though I just have to note that I don't get how Elayne can be considered spoiled, when that she had no more problems doing all the menial chores required of the novices and Accepted than the other novices, is a better seamstress and cook than Egwene or Nynaeve and didn't mind sewing and cooking plenty of times during their travels, nor did she ever complained not having personal servants while in the Tower or travelling with Nynaeve. Apart from Morgase, she was brought up mostly by Lini and had Gareth Bryne for a main tutor, both of of which were undoubtedly strict and didnt tolerate childish tantrums, Daughter-Heir or not.

 

Actually, Joiya only wanted to trap Nynaeve and Egwene, and likewise, Siuan only wanted Nynaeve and Egwene to be her Black Ajah hunters. In both instances, Elayne stated that she hated doing chores and wanted adventure, inviting herself on both occasions. Essentially, she hated chores so much she preferred to run away.

 

Also, the first time Elayne ran away, she created a rift between Morgase and the WT, causing Morgase to expel her AS advisor, thus opening the door for Rahvin. This caused a domino effect where Morgase was raped by Rahvin, abused her allies, fled Andor, was raped again in Altara, was reduced to a maid, was kidnapped by Aiel, and was tortured by Aiel. This also caused Elayne to start another War of Succession, killing many thousands of Andormen. Elayne's running away also caused a rift with Gawayn and Galad too. Both of them became disillusioned by the WT, so Galad ended up with the Whitecloaks (although this turned out to be a good thing,) but this led Gawayn to support the stilling and near-execution of Siuan and Leane. He will probably feel the guilt of killing Hammar and Couldain for the rest of his life.

 

And, this is just her actions through the first 3 books.

 

I'm not an Elayne hater, but to say she's not selfish completely ignores all events and facts to the contrary. The only time she's felt the slightest bit of remorse was when she didn't write a letter to her mother the first time she ran away, and also when forced to apologize to Mat by Avi. When she met Gawayn in ToM, she had no idea how much she ruined his life and made a hugely condescending remark about excusing him from his duties as Captain-General.

[Rose]

the title of the thread is "what you dislike most about the series" well I cringe at all the typos, sorry! its a totally fixable thing for a competent company and you will never convince me otherwise

Oh I'm fine with that. Sure, I agree, typos are annoying and more care should have been given to removing them. I was just pointing out that it's nowhere as easy as you seem to think. And I must say I get quite annoyed myself when somebody who has no training or experience in an area says that they could have done it much better and faster than the people who do it for a living. But as you said, that doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, so I won't comment on it any further.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

@ cindy I am in complete agreement with you and ares. the proofreaders should be well compensated for their effort (IMO its an important-ish job they do) and given MORE than one day to accomplish their task. if I was treated like crap then yes, I too would probably poison WoT with typo after typo as an act of rebellion. the ultimate fault (as usual) lies with management. "hey there's still all these typos...ok, what's going on with the proofreader(s)?" <- how hard is that

 

the title of the thread is "what you dislike most about the series" well I cringe at all the typos, sorry! its a totally fixable thing for a competent company and you will never convince me otherwise

 

um. . . not sure what you're agreeing with, but i didn't mean to imply anything about a proofreader rebellion.

 

just saying, it's often an entry level job that doesn't require any special degree unless it's for tech witing, and it pays not much over minimum wage to start, and it's tedious, and everlasting boring, from what i can tell. actually, i didn't even say that, but i'm thinking back to proofreaders i've known now. i never knew any of them to deliberately miss typos out of some kind of rebellion.

 

i think the point of my post was, 'golly, this debate over the typos is kind of uninteresting to me, but it led me to start reading some things that were interesting to me, and maybe someone else would find those things interesting, too.'

 

as i said, i am not offering any opionion about the typo issue. i know it bothers some people. i haven't bought the book yet, and when i do, it will probably be the audio book, and i will probably be annoyed by other things.

 

anyway, i'm not trying to convince you of anything, it doesn't bother me if you're annoyed by typos.

[Smittyphi]

And, this is just her actions through the first 3 books.

 

I'm not an Elayne hater, but to say she's not selfish completely ignores all events and facts to the contrary. The only time she's felt the slightest bit of remorse was when she didn't write a letter to her mother the first time she ran away, and also when forced to apologize to Mat by Avi. When she met Gawayn in ToM, she had no idea how much she ruined his life and made a hugely condescending remark about excusing him from his duties as Captain-General.

 

What if we judge Mat by the first 3 books?

 

Read Lord of Chaos and Path of Daggers again. Mat's offering of us medallion and her subsequent refusal as their aren't enough to go around to Avi and Nynaeve is one of the sweetest things you can read in these books. After having zero experience unweaving, she orders everyone else to leave so she can prevent the Seanchan from possibly reading her weaves and discovering Traveling. Is she selfish and petulant through part of the books? Yes, but who isn't, besides Bela of course.

[David Selig]

Actually, Joiya only wanted to trap Nynaeve and Egwene, and likewise, Siuan only wanted Nynaeve and Egwene to be her Black Ajah hunters. In both instances, Elayne stated that she hated doing chores and wanted adventure, inviting herself on both occasions. Essentially, she hated chores so much she preferred to run away.

Uh, no. The part about going away because she hated the chores because was clearly a joke, both times. Here's a quote:

TGH, Ch. 38

 

Suddenly her somber mood vanished in a giggle. “Besides, do you think I would pass up an adventure so I could scrub pots?”

 

And BTW, Siuan definitely wanted Elayne to be a Black Ajah hunter - she just couldn't say it straight out to her, because then she wouldn't have been able to evade Morgase's inevitable questions. So she told Nynaeve and Egwene, and expected them to tell Elayne, as it happened.

 

Also, the first time Elayne ran away, she created a rift between Morgase and the WT, causing Morgase to expel her AS advisor, thus opening the door for Rahvin. This caused a domino effect where Morgase was raped by Rahvin, abused her allies, fled Andor, was raped again in Altara, was reduced to a maid, was kidnapped by Aiel, and was tortured by Aiel. This also caused Elayne to start another War of Succession, killing many thousands of Andormen. Elayne's running away also caused a rift with Gawayn and Galad too. Both of them became disillusioned by the WT, so Galad ended up with the Whitecloaks (although this turned out to be a good thing,) but this led Gawayn to support the stilling and near-execution of Siuan and Leane. He will probably feel the guilt of killing Hammar and Couldain for the rest of his life.

What? Please explain how Elaida would've been able to stop Rahvin. He'd have come to power in Andor no matter whether Elayne have left the Tower or not. Not to mention that Liandrin had planned to have Elayne killed if she hadn't left the Tower with Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH, which would've ruined the Tower - Andor relations even more than her running away. Blaming Elayne for what happened with Morgase is completely ridiculous.

 

Now, I agree that her running away was really irresponsible act for a heir to a throne, but this doesn't mean that it lead to all the disasters you claim. And I really don't know how it's her fault that Gawyn is an idiot who decided to get involved in the Aes Sedai internal strife.

 

I'm not an Elayne hater, but to say she's not selfish completely ignores all events and facts to the contrary. The only time she's felt the slightest bit of remorse was when she didn't write a letter to her mother the first time she ran away, and also when forced to apologize to Mat by Avi. When she met Gawayn in ToM, she had no idea how much she ruined his life and made a hugely condescending remark about excusing him from his duties as Captain-General.

She ruined Gawyn's life? Really? I don't recall Elayne forcing him to get involved in the Aes Sedai internal affairs or to kill his teachers. And she excused him from his duties as Captain-General because that's what he wanted, I don't see what 's condescending about that.

 

One example showing that Elayne is not selfish - bonding Birgitte when she was on the brink of death. Not only she risked being grief stricken for years if the most likely happened and Birgitte had died, she also risked a really serious punishment if the Aes Sedai ever learned that she had bonded someone while she was still an Accepted.

 

Sorry that this seems to be drifting off topic.

[randsc]

I don't know if "Selfish" is the right word, but "Self-Absorbed" certainly seems fair.

 

She has a pattern of repeatedly getting herself in trouble. To get her out of trouble, people die. And she never spares a thought for those people. That's a problem, for me.

[Dakota]

The lack of a strong editor. This thing really should have been finished in 8 books.

 

This. Too much fluff and padding got left in that should have ended up on the cutting room floor.

 

Overly elaborate descriptions of what every person in such and such a scene is wearing that has no basis on the plot, or being reminded how Saidar, Saidin, angreals, circles, and whatnot work several times each book.

Entire plotlines that either dragged out much much farther than they needed to be (Fail's captivity) or cut entirely with an alternative plotline that would have resolved in a chapter or two (Elayne taking the throne).

And just the sheer amount of unnecessary fluff like bath scenes, washing silk, and sifting weevils.

 

The first six books were more or less decently edited, though many of those could have stood to use a good chunk cut. Everything between books 7 and 10 could have been compressed to a single book if all the extra garbage had been cut. The only reason Sanderson had to split up book 12 into three more is because of all the extra garbage that RJ left for him to have to resolve.

[RyanL24]

I only say this because for me catching typos is EXTREMELY easy...in fact I can't NOT. it is my burden and my curse.

 

This is the boat I'm in. I'm trying to read and enjoy the story, but my eyes just fix on the typos. Then I have to quit reading and start thinking about what went wrong. And it wasn't like there was an error on each page... it's just that the errors were so glaringly obvious (to me) I didn't understand how they survived all the way to the printing process.

 

 

It is a very minor thing though, when compared to the other dislikes I've read in the thread.

[jwood01]

This thread is long so I haven't looked through every post, so I apologize if this has been mentioned.

 

RJ's emphasis on clothing descriptions really bugs me. These just seem to drag on and on. The main characters seem to care way too much about what they are wearing.

 

This is just my opinion and I am someone who really doesn't care about what I wear, or what other people wear for the most part. My wife has a hard enough time making sure I don't rewear shirts or trousers!

[Kal11]

I agree with a lot of the points Toy made, she has no regret or remorse for far too many of her actions. Having a good work ethic does not mean a person is not spoiled. A big flaw in the character for me is the way she expects people to allow her to lead them around by the nose. People talk about how Gawyn is mistreated by Egwene but look at how he grew up being an accessory to his sister, it is what he has been conditioned to accept. She won't even acknowledge Galad as her brother for no reason other than he does what is right instead of indulging her in what she wants. She even expects the freaking Dragon Reborn to obey her of all things and talks about treating him like a Warder.

 

She has a general hissy fit any time someone else does not fall into step agreeably with what she wants and has no concept of consequences for her actions. Concerning Birgitte and unweaving the gate I do not think it is a matter of being unselfish in her intentions but rather that she had no thought for what might happen. Demanding to get your own way constantly and not realizing the impact of your actions and decisions are as un-Aiel as anything, hence why I do not find the Avi and Elayne relationship logical at all.

[Lama Chemist Ho]

it's nowhere as easy as you seem to think. And I must say I get quite annoyed myself when somebody who has no training or experience in an area says that they could have done it much better and faster

yes that's exactly what I'm saying...I CAN do it much better than they do, and I PROVE IT everytime I pick up a WoT book.

 

look, here's another doozy (ToM chapter 15 'use a pebble' page 217)

 

The guardsmen moved off. Nynaeve turned to Naeff, and he nodded. She turned and took a step into the affected section of town. When her foot hit the paving stone, the stone turned to dust. Her food sank through the shattered paving stone and hit packed earth.

lol that's what it says, you can google it. I particularly loved this one because I know I hate it when my food sinks into the pavement! and I wouldn't say I'd do it "faster" than them, as the current proofreaders' rushing (as per mr. ares) is probably the cause of their failure / shoddiness. I said "under one week" not "faster". I'd actually recommend they slow down and take more care, making sure to read each word rather than just skimming through rushing to make the Chritmas deadline

 

"why won't it read!" ~steve jobs a la south park

 

 

 

here's another great quote from the kinswoman alise in "partings, and a meeting":

 

"Egwene Sedai has spoken of letting the Kin continue, but if we do, would be we be able to work the One Power openly?" [sic]

not the author/editor's fault...I'm sure "her character" just misspoke!

 

that also happened again later (chapter 19 "talk of dragons" page 284)

 

She had sent Guybon himself to escort Mat. He was high-ranking, second-in-command of the armies. That was unexpected. Was Elayne afraid of him, or WAS SHE WAS honoring him?

google it. you see what I'm saying? if I WEREN'T BETTER than the series' current proofreaders, than how is it I'm finding all these typos they missed? how can you possibly argue that? I also have quite a few others (albeit more argueable) and I'm barely 300 pages in. first ever read-through. and I'm not even looking. yes I am much better at it than the series' current proofreaders. sorry thats so annoying for you! :P

 

I didn't understand how they survived all the way to the printing process.

exactly! thats all I'm sayin :)

 

@ cindy as you say if the job of proofreader is as boring monotonous and low paying as you all are saying, to the extent that those doing it can't care enough about it to bother doing a good job any more...that is the fault of management (as they're the ones creating the terms of the insufferable job). most likely what the workers need and deserve is better pay...shorter hours...more variety in assignment...ie whatever it takes for them to be able to care enough to get the job done RIGHT. it is the company's fault that they're too cheap and greedy to spend what it takes to fully rid the flaws from their product. (not that they're MAJOR major flaws but still.........they make me cringe). Tor (or whatever) has basically said, "despite the millions we make off this @#^& its not worth it to us spending a FEW extra minimum ass wage man-hours to rid the errors from our product, before releasing it to fans"...and that is what I dislike about the series. personally I would just put the final draft through another round or two of proofreaders (different ones...than had been at it the first time) and also maybe take the care in the first place to hire ones with a higher reading skill, which was why I volunteered myself in the first place when I originally posted on this thread. lol

 

ok I promise I'll shut up about it now! (unless I get a lot more flames)

[Superhal]

 

1. Uh, no. The part about going away because she hated the chores because was clearly a joke, both times.

 

2.And BTW, Siuan definitely wanted Elayne to be a Black Ajah hunter - she just couldn't say it straight out to her, because then she wouldn't have been able to evade Morgase's inevitable questions. So she told Nynaeve and Egwene, and expected them to tell Elayne, as it happened.

 

3. What? Please explain how Elaida would've been able to stop Rahvin. He'd have come to power in Andor no matter whether Elayne have left the Tower or not. Not to mention that Liandrin had planned to have Elayne killed if she hadn't left the Tower with Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH, which would've ruined the Tower - Andor relations even more than her running away. Blaming Elayne for what happened with Morgase is completely ridiculous.

 

4. Now, I agree that her running away was really irresponsible act for a heir to a throne, but this doesn't mean that it lead to all the disasters you claim. And I really don't know how it's her fault that Gawyn is an idiot who decided to get involved in the Aes Sedai internal strife.

 

5. She ruined Gawyn's life? Really? I don't recall Elayne forcing him to get involved in the Aes Sedai internal affairs or to kill his teachers. And she excused him from his duties as Captain-General because that's what he wanted, I don't see what 's condescending about that.

 

6. One example showing that Elayne is not selfish - bonding Birgitte when she was on the brink of death. Not only she risked being grief stricken for years if the most likely happened and Birgitte had died, she also risked a really serious punishment if the Aes Sedai ever learned that she had bonded someone while she was still an Accepted.

 

 

1. And this somehow proves she's not selfish because...? It seems to me this point actually supports my point.

2. That was only Siuan covering herself. Elayne could have refused, IF she wanted to scrub pots.

3. Elaida is a Red, who is trained with men who can channel. While it is debatable whether she could have helped against Rahvin, it seems strange that Rahvin decided to make a move on Morgase after Elaida left.

4. Yep, it did. Elayne running away and the WT covering it up directly caused the rift between Morgase and the WT. There was no other conflict between Morgase and the WT except that. I could even argue that this chain of events led to the split of the WT, because it forced Elaida to return.

5. It is very clear that Gawayn disliked Siuan solely because she wouldn't tell him where Elayne was. The only reason he supported Elaida was the hope that Elayne would return to the tower.

6. Iirc, that was indirectly her fault too. She fell asleep when she was supposed to be monitoring Nynaeve.

[Manscher]

1. And this somehow proves she's not selfish because...? It seems to me this point actually supports my point.

2. That was only Siuan covering herself. Elayne could have refused, IF she wanted to scrub pots.

3. Elaida is a Red, who is trained with men who can channel. While it is debatable whether she could have helped against Rahvin, it seems strange that Rahvin decided to make a move on Morgase after Elaida left.

4. Yep, it did. Elayne running away and the WT covering it up directly caused the rift between Morgase and the WT. There was no other conflict between Morgase and the WT except that. I could even argue that this chain of events led to the split of the WT, because it forced Elaida to return.

5. It is very clear that Gawayn disliked Siuan solely because she wouldn't tell him where Elayne was. The only reason he supported Elaida was the hope that Elayne would return to the tower.

6. Iirc, that was indirectly her fault too. She fell asleep when she was supposed to be monitoring Nynaeve.

 

1. So she's selfish cause she rather go out and do something "fun" rather than sit and do chores? What person in the world would rather do chores then hang out with their friends? I mean, I accepted the chores I had to do in the army with a smile, but that doesn't mean I actually enjoyed it or wanted to do it if I had a choice.

2. Again, point one, who wants to scrub pots when they can have an adventure with their friends? Stop demanding every character to be jesus.

3. Elaida returned to the WT long before the split, she went with Elayne, Gawyn and Galad back to the WT. When Morgase visited the WT and Elayne was missing, Rahvin had already more or less taken control of Caemlyn, and when Morgase wanted to return, she refused Elaida to return with her. So no, it has nothing to do with Elaida, she would've been crushed like by Rahvin.

4. Again, Elaida was already in the tower, and she was already investigating into Rand, nothing to do with Elayne running away. And as pointed out, had she died she would most likely had been killed by other BA members, now THAT would've truely destroyed any relationship between Andor and the WT.

5. Gawyn is a fool, quite simple, he knew that Min knew about them, but couldn't tell. He knew that Min and Elayne was good friends and that she would've been afraid for her safety as well if that was the case, yet he still refused to accept it. Utter fool.

6. No, it was not her fault, we've seen time and time again that it's more or less impossible to wake somebody from the dream, and with Moghedien actually forcing Nynaeve to stay in the dream, there would be absolutely nothing Elayne could've done to wake her up.

[Mr Ares]

the following choices: get the book out, accepting there will be mistakes; delay the book for months, missing Chritmas.

qué? like I said all they have to do is hire additional or more competent proofreaders (me) I could unilaterally get it done in under < one week. lol @ 'months'! what you are describing is a breakdown in management. if they can't get it done by 'Chritmas'.....then they should have started earlier, it really is that simple. again a single work week is all it would take for ONE competent proofreader to fix every typo. "oops mr. jordan we actually need it one week ahead of when we thought (we suck rather badly you see)" <- whats so hard about that. if they really cared about their product they would QC it properly before releasing it. then no one would have to go through with your proposed boycott of the series. sounds to me like the same forces are at work which caused an originally-planned eyeless 3 book series to be milked into 15 eyeless books (corporate greed).

It was definitely not greed that lead this series to expand from three books into 15 (it has only expanded to fourteen, for one thing). RJ's initial plot breakdown was considered too extensive to be completed in three books - that's why his initial contract was for six books. RJ was just bad at estimating how much left he had to write. And they couldn't start earlier, because they hadn't finished writing it. TGS: Sanderson hired, works, finishes book, it is brought out. ToM, the same. Unless they had hired Sanderson a couple of months earlier? Of course, Tor needs to hire psychics! Some of the purely RJ books were rushed through editing - this proved unpopular as it led to a high number of errors, so they abandoned it for KoD. And as I have already pointed out, missing a deadline by mere days could potentially lead to months of delay. Publishers have slots when they release books. If your book isn't handed in in time to be released in that slot, you'll have to wait for another one. Or they just rush it through editing...wait, wasn't rushing it through the cause of the errors to begin with? You have demonstrated no particular knowledge of the publishing industry (neither am I, I've just picked up a couple of things) and despite the arrogance of your assessment I see no compelling evidence that you would be a better proofreader. Remember, just because you could get it done in under a week, doesn't mean they have a spare week to let you make one last pass before it goes to the printers. Because it has to go to the printers to get printed to get sent to the shops. And the printers won't necesarily stop and wait - they have other books to print. That is the point you so singularly failed to grasp about my one day line - I didn't mean all proofreaders have to do their job at the rate of a book a day, I mean that they are pushed for time. They have to edit the book, make the changes, get it sent to the printer in order to get it into the shops. And if the book is handed in close to deadline, then they have less time to prepare it - from what I can gather from reading comments Sanderson has made, he has to work long hours to get things done. I hardly think everyone else has masses of time to spare for nice, leisurely reads. And when you are up against it, timewise, there does exist the possibility that errors will slip past unnoticed. Unfortunate, but unavoidable unless you are prepared to spend much longer with the book in editing - and thus you delay the book by months. So your recourse as a reader is either to buy a book that you know will have errors, or wait until they have had time to fix them. By refusing to do the latter, you send the message that the errors are acceptable.

 

Interesting stuff. How often do these slots occur? Every 3 years or so?

Given that Tor does release books at a rate of greater than one every three years, evidently not.

The fans would really be upset about waiting 3 extra months to read a finished story?

Yes.

They would rather buy a book that's full of errors and typos?

If it got it to them sooner, yes. After all, many typos are removed in later editions, so therefore the choice between the book released now and the book released later but with fewer typos is not purely hypothetical, it actually exists. Just wait until they have made a few changes and start putting out ones with a lot of the errors fixed.

What's the Christmas thing about anyway?

Well, Christmas is a holiday celebrated every year on the 25th of December. Giving gifts to others at this time of year is traditional, and consequently the run up to Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year for retail. The run up to Christmas begins several months before Christmas, and companies that want their products to be big sellers over the Chirtmas period have to put those products out well ahead of time.

ToM was released 2 November 2010, I think they could have taken the afformentioned week to fix the (at least) the typos and released it November 9.

But as I've already explained, they can't do that. You see, books have to be printed. So the book has to be sent to the printer, so you have to agree with the printer that he will be printing however many copies of your book. If you delay getting your book to him by a week, he won't have time to put out all the books. Meanwhile, other publishers release books. You don't want your book to clash with another big release. So if you delay by a week, that leaves you with one less week before your rival puts out his book. Which has the potential to harm your sales.

And people are going to buy the next WOT when it comes out, even if it's not Christmas.

Hardcore fans will, yes. On the other hand, you sell a lot over the Christmas period. Why harm your sales? I will buy AMoL whether it comes out in November or January. But January is a slacker period for sales than November. Would you rather maximise sales before Christmas, or reduce them by only playing to the hardcore fanbase in January?

It's not really a Christmas gift. The ones that do come out near Christmas, it's more than 2 months before. No WOT fan is going to sit there for over two months waiting to read the next book because they are getting for Christmas.

OK, has anyone on these boards ever received a WOT book for Christmas? Or their birthday? Or anyday other than within a week of release? Remember, not everyone has sufficient disposable income to rush out and get themselves a hardback. Some people will wait until they get given the book.

It would make sense for the first book to come out before Christmas, that would get all kinds of new readers into your series. EotW came out 15 January 1990. CoT was released 7 January 2003, which tells me that getting these books out in time for Christmas is not that crucial to TOR.

3 books in November, 6 in October - that's nine out of thirteen so far that are definitely released in the run up to Christmas. No, there's absolutely no evidence that Tor would try to capitalise on the busiest retail period of the year by releasing their biggest selling book at a time when most people are out buying.

(it has only expanded to fourteen, for one thing)

Which one do you not count? And why not?

I don't count the imaginary one. The fourteen WoT books: EotW, TGH, TDR, TSR, FoH, LoC, CoS, PoD, WH, CoT, KoD, TGS, ToM, MoL (forthcoming). There are no other books in the series proper.

 

 

Do you have any idea

uh, no offense but maybe your reading skill is not on a level with mine? I only say this because for me catching typos is EXTREMELY easy...in fact I can't NOT.

Funny you should say that. After all, for someone so big on trumpeting your skill as a proofreader, your posts do contain a fair few errors.

it is my burden and my curse. for instance when you write things like

For, being the start of a sentence, should be capitalised.

 

ordinarily I would NEVER point it out or care in the least or think less of anyone for it (especially not when its just casual internet posting)...I just don't think it belongs in a WoT book! yes I could easily catch and fix every typo in a week or less...ALL you have to do is read each word, remain focused while doing so and have good spelling. maybe thats beyond most people but proofreaders of a major series should have that.

Again, lacking capitals. Also, you mean it's, not its, and that's, not thats. Normally, I wouldn't do something like this, but then ordinarily people are not so keen to trumpet their superior skills as proofreaders. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

 

you see what I'm saying? if I WEREN'T BETTER than the series' current proofreaders, than how is it I'm finding all these typos they missed?

You're not exactly starting from a level playing field - even leaving aside the conditions under which you have to work, you don't know how many typos they removed. If they removed 90%, then by demonstrating your skills with the remaining 10% you are by no means demonstrating your superiority. You only demonstrate that people are entirely capable of making mistakes.

[David Selig]

1. And this somehow proves she's not selfish because...? It seems to me this point actually supports my point.

2. That was only Siuan covering herself. Elayne could have refused, IF she wanted to scrub pots.

3. Elaida is a Red, who is trained with men who can channel. While it is debatable whether she could have helped against Rahvin, it seems strange that Rahvin decided to make a move on Morgase after Elaida left.

4. Yep, it did. Elayne running away and the WT covering it up directly caused the rift between Morgase and the WT. There was no other conflict between Morgase and the WT except that. I could even argue that this chain of events led to the split of the WT, because it forced Elaida to return.

5. It is very clear that Gawayn disliked Siuan solely because she wouldn't tell him where Elayne was. The only reason he supported Elaida was the hope that Elayne would return to the tower.

6. Iirc, that was indirectly her fault too. She fell asleep when she was supposed to be monitoring Nynaeve.

1. It proves that your point that she left the Tower because she was spoiled and hated scrubbing pots is wrong. As for selfish - I don't see it in those cases. In TGH she left the Tower to help Rand and support Egwene and Nynaeve. Definitely irresponsible for a heir to a throne, but hardly selfish. IN TDR, she left to try and stop the Black Ajah - which I really don't see how it can be described as selfish.

 

2. Of course Elayne could stay, I never claimed otherwise, just correcting your claim that Siuan didn't want her to be a BA hunter.

 

3. Remember that young Red in Caemlyn who Elaida sent to spy that Rahvin turned into his personal plaything with complete ease? She never had a chance. Same would've happened to Elaida. Do you really think that Elaida the moron who's probably 5 times weaker in the One Power had any chance against Rahvin?

 

4. Yes, it caused the rift, though Rahvin probably would've caused it himself anyway later. But it didn't cause Morgase's entrapment by Rahvin and eventual exile and rape, the Andoran civil war and all that. That was Rahvin's work and would've happened anyway.

 

5. It's not so clear actually - a big part of his reason was Egwene, not Elayne. And why blame Elayne for Siuan's evasions and Gawyn's hotheadedness? Gawyn himself never did it and for a guy whose life has been apparently ruined, he seems fine to me as of now (apart from being bonded to Egwene, but there's no accounting for taste, I guess).

 

6. No, she didn't fall asleep. She even tried to pull Nynaeve out of TAR, but everything happened so fast, she couldn't do it in time and it wouldn't have helped Birgitte anyway. But still, it was definitely Elayne's fault, just like the civil war in Shara and Seanchan and the famine in Arad Doman.

 

I agree with a lot of the points Toy made, she has no regret or remorse for far too many of her actions. Having a good work ethic does not mean a person is not spoiled. A big flaw in the character for me is the way she expects people to allow her to lead them around by the nose. People talk about how Gawyn is mistreated by Egwene but look at how he grew up being an accessory to his sister, it is what he has been conditioned to accept. She won't even acknowledge Galad as her brother for no reason other than he does what is right instead of indulging her in what she wants. She even expects the freaking Dragon Reborn to obey her of all things and talks about treating him like a Warder.

Elayne's bossy, but not more so than most women in this series. She was brought up to be a heir to the throne, after all, but is still less bossy than half the Aes Sedai we've seen, or Nyneave and Egwene.

 

She has a general hissy fit any time someone else does not fall into step agreeably with what she wants and has no concept of consequences for her actions. Concerning Birgitte and unweaving the gate I do not think it is a matter of being unselfish in her intentions but rather that she had no thought for what might happen. Demanding to get your own way constantly and not realizing the impact of your actions and decisions are as un-Aiel as anything, hence why I do not find the Avi and Elayne relationship logical at all.

What about Sorilea? She's way more bossy than Elayne, yet is considered the perfect Wise One.

 

Besides, saying that Elayne "has hissy fit any time someone else does not fall into step agreeably with what she wants" is plainly wrong. See TGH and TDR, where she clearly accepted Nynaeve to be the leader in Falme and on the way to Tear. Later they shared the leadership between them.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you see what I'm saying? if I WEREN'T BETTER than the series' current proofreaders, than how is it I'm finding all these typos they missed?

 

. . . You only demonstrate that people are entirely capable of making mistakes.

 

 

then.

 

but, really, we're all playing silly bug. . . erm. . . gooses now.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ahem. . . geese.

[Himiko]

I agree that Elayne puts herself at risk a lot in the series, often unnecessarily, because she believes that she is safe because of Min's viewing. Often, she only remains safe because others rescue her, and this often costs lives, something she seems to fail to consider, which is definitely a failing on her part, I think, and one that has become more apparent the later in the series we get. She knows that she commands a kingdom now, and sometimes people have to die for her, but she doesn't seem to have quite moved beyond that to realising that this is even more of a reason not to put herself at unnecessary risk.

 

In a way, I think this might be left over from her time in the WT, and as AS. Bearing in mind, for the first however-many books (well, from Book 2 onward), most of what Elayne does is done as a novice/ Accepted/ AS- she passes her Accepted test, hunts for Black Ajah, she helps rescue Egwene from Falme, she takes part in obtaining and using the Bowl of Winds. In the Tower, she is almost expected to put herself in dangerous situations- what would happen, for example, if she'd died in the Accepted test? Surely going through that is irresponsible. As people have pointed out, Siuan is hardly averse to having Elayne help hunt the Black Ajah. She is one of the most powerful AS, she is expected to put her talents to good use, and help the world. I can't help feeling that if she'd known about Egwene and Nynaeve going to hunt the Black Ajah and hadn't accompanied them because it would be irresponsible, then a lot of people would be criticising her for letting her friends go off into obvious danger when she- another powerful channeler- could have helped them but chose not to. Basically, I wonder if she hasn't quite made the transition from "Novice/ Accepted/ AS who happens to be the Daughter Heir" which is how she acted in the first 2/3 of the series, to "Queen of Andor who just happens to be AS", which is what she really needs to do to be an effective ruler.

 

She proves she is willing to do chores- she does a lot of the cooking and sewing for Nynaeve and Egwene on their travels. She doesn't expect special treatment from them- when she feels Nynaeve is being unnecessarily bossy in TDR, she simply holds up her ring to remind Nyn that they're both Accepted, and carries on as normal, other than this, she accepts Nynaeve's leadership role over the group, and often agrees with her - often enough that it annoys Egwene, who then admits to herself that its only when Nynaeve is right. She wants Nynaeve to be her AS advisor, she supports Egwene as Amyrlin happily. Neither of them always agree with her. She suffers from the "Men are woolheads" school of thought, but many of the WoT women do.

 

As for the relations between Andor and the WT- I doubt very much Elaida on her own would have been able to stop Rahvin, even had Morgase still been in contact with the WT, she was under Compulsion, Rahvin would likely have gained Andor anyway, and I imagine he would have found some way of splitting her from the WT if he thought it was a risk. Similarly, had Elaida been in Andor rather than in the WT, Mesaana was already established there, doubtless she, Alviarin and co. would have found another sister dissatisfied with Siuan's secrecy and plotting (please remember, the Tower split in half over this, plenty of sisters clearly agreed with the sentiment), and had them do as Elaida did.

 

So, yeah, I agree Elayne has many faults, and they have become more pronounced as the series goes on. She is stubborn, and doesn't always act as the ruler of a nation should responsibly act. But I don't think she's the immature, spoiled, self important fool that a lot of people seem to think of her as. Just my opinion, but she's far from my least favourite character.

 

Kind of gone off topic again here, I guess...

 

OK, here's one thing that annoys me slightly, though its more about a character than the books themselves. Berelain initially goes after Rand, is turned down, and sets her sights on Perrin, who also isn't interested. Now, she admits she's not in love with him, any feelings at all between them seem to be respect, and possibly friendship at a push, brought on after they have travelled together with Perrin's army. The only explanation that we're given is that she seeks a strong ally for Mayene, and yet she pursues Perrin all the way until Book 13 of the series, when she meets Galad. She knows Perrin is married, that he is in love with Faile, and if Berelain has even the slightest chance of getting him, its going to take a lot of time. So why does she not leave Perrin aside and try and find another suitable alliance as soon as she is turned away, as she does with Rand? She spends months chasing after something that she knows is probably hopeless, when, if she really wants to make an alliance through marriage, she could be approaching other rulers. It just seems to give off waves of "Well, I don't really like Faile, and I DEFINITELY don't like being turned down this often, so I want to win this game", rather than "My nation needs an ally and marriage is the easiest option!"

[dwn]

OK, has anyone on these boards ever received a WOT book for Christmas? Or their birthday? Or anyday other than within a week of release? Remember, not everyone has sufficient disposable income to rush out and get themselves a hardback. Some people will wait until they get given the book.

 

I received my first WoT book (The Shadow Rising) for Christmas. I didn't read it for months because it was the fourth book in the series. The Christmas season is indeed important to publishers of books, movies, games, etc., and an early November release in the US is favoured due to the Thanksgiving week-end sales rush.

 

On the subject of proofreading, I find that typos--even the occasional saidar vs. saidin mixup--aren't all that distracting. I notice them, but they don't break the immersion beyond a hiccup. Yet there are a couple things, particularly in ToM, that do get under my skin. These could be the result of rushed editing, or they could just be part of BS's writing style.

 

The word 'reports' is used excessively in dialogue when describing third party information, even when the speaker isn't referring to actual, physical reports. I suspect that it's intended to indicate a kind of formality, yet it often comes across as someone (whether the author or the speaker) misusing language to sound more eloquent.

 

The second, again in dialogue, is when a speaker omits the subject of a sentence. A prime example of this is when Edarra speaks after Perrin wakes from destroying the dreamspike: "It is not to be done. Wouldn't have worked anyway." (ToM, Wounds, p. 598). This is again a problem of formality. A gruff, unpolished speaker might use such phrasing in informal conversation, but it sounds strange coming from Edarra (a Wise One). Many characters speak in this fashion and, to me, it usually feels inappropriate.

 

-- dwn

[Lama Chemist Ho]

your posts do contain a fair few errors.

you again!

 

the key difference (obviously) being my lack of capitalization / punctuation = 100% intentional...the WoT errors 100% unintentional. everything I write on here is exactly the way I want it to look. thus they are not "errors" (as they are not made in err) and I think you know this well. lol think of my writing style as a statement on anti-conformity / individuality (on an aesthetic level) vs. herd-mentality / doing what you're told for no reason. besides you can't compare the platforms of a message board on the internet and a major fantasy series. of course I would do it the 'proper' way for a WoT book however this isn't that so I will use my own style (the point of which is to break said rules in order to be more genuine and convey tones they simply don't allow. the subtlety and artistry of it is probably lost on you!) if I left it to you you would probably have commas in my sentences every fifth word >:| probably do away with my smileys as well

 

There are no other books in the series proper.

kinda sounds like you're grasping at straws from a debunked and undefendable position. are you in politics or something man. why does the fact that I'm right gall you so much. I haven't gotten this much attention in a while...it's flattering but I'm not sure I'm ready ;)

 

(yes, I did not use question marks on those...that's how I want them to feel)

[UncleButcher1980]

the key difference (obviously) being my lack of capitalization / punctuation = 100% intentional...the WoT errors 100% unintentional. everything I write on here is exactly the way I want it to look. thus they are not "errors" (as they are not made in err) and I think you know this well. lol think of my writing style as a statement on anti-conformity / individuality (on an aesthetic level) vs. herd-mentality / doing what you're told for no reason. besides you can't compare the platforms of a message board on the internet and a major fantasy series. of course I would do it the 'proper' way for a WoT book however this isn't that so I will use my own style (the point of which is to break said rules in order to be more genuine and convey tones they simply don't allow. the subtlety and artistry of it is probably lost on you!) if I left it to you you would probably have commas in my sentences every fifth word >:| probably do away with my smileys as well

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

your posts do contain a fair few errors.

you again!

 

the key difference (obviously) being my lack of capitalization / punctuation = 100% intentional...the WoT errors 100% unintentional. everything I write on here is exactly the way I want it to look. thus they are not "errors" (as they are not made in err)

Ah. You like being wrong. That explains a lot.

lol think of my writing style as a statement on anti-conformity / individuality (on an aesthetic level) vs. herd-mentality / doing what you're told for no reason.

It doesn't work - your writing is not too dissimilar to many other posts. On the other hand, my lack of smileys and "lol"s are far more atypical (though granted as that absence would only become apparent from the totality of my posts people could be forgiven for not noticing it. Also, I only really do that because I don't see the point, rather than due to any great desire to be seen as a non-conformist). I attempt to convey everything I wish to through the language I use, not through a consistent use of poor punctuation - to do so wouldn't set me apart from the herd, so much as move me to a different herd. (I hope you don't object to some friendly constructive criticism of your writing stlye.) I have no desire to make statements about my lack of conformity and how wonderfully individual I am, I simply atttempt to make my point as best I can. Sometimes it works quite well, other times it doesn't.

(the point of which is to break said rules in order to be more genuine and convey tones they simply don't allow. the subtlety and artistry of it is probably lost on you!)

Doubtless. To me, it all looks the same as anyone else who doesn't bother with proper punctuation. In future I will endeavour to separate your artistic use of such from other people.

 

There are no other books in the series proper.

kinda sounds like you're grasping at straws from a debunked and undefendable position. are you in politics or something man. why does the fact that I'm right gall you so much. I haven't gotten this much attention in a while...it's flattering but I'm not sure I'm ready ;)

(yes, I did not use question marks on those...that's how I want them to feel)

I'm not sure what's so debunked and undefendable about a position that there are only 14 WoT books. If I look at ToM it will doubtless say it's the thirteenth book in the series. There is a projected one more to come. 13+1=14, if I remember my maths correctly. Really, I'm paying no especial attention to you, there's no need to feel unduly singled out. And no, I'm not in politics any more.

 

UncleButcher, come now. Just because this great artistry is beyond you, there is no need for such mockery.

[Lama Chemist Ho]

lol many nice burns in that. yes.....you were taught that every sentence must begin with a capital letter, and so you accept and comply...whereas I question, revise and improve. (at least "improve" in my opinion! I like my writing style better). you are like an aes sedai who upholds stupid traditions such as deciding rank based on strength in the power, for better or worse simply because thats the way its always been done.

 

"There is something wrong with this system, Daigian," Nynaeve said absently.

 

"There you sit," she said, "knowing as much as any other Aes Sedai— knowing more than many, I'd wager—and the moment any Accepted just off apron strings gains the shawl, you have to do what she says."

[UncleButcher1980]

UncleButcher, come now. Just because this great artistry is beyond you, there is no need for such mockery.

 

sigh...I know, I'm in way over my head here.