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What you dislike most about the series?


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Title says it all.

 

Mine is the amount of sexism. Seriously, it caused me to put the book down on several occasions, and after I read The Way of Kings I realised how childish it made the characters seem.

All of them, seriously. It had me fuming at some points.

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I also dislike WoT's interpretation of gender. When I was younger I was intimidated the author's insistence that these were strong women and anyone who disagreed was a closet sexist. It was also the 1990s, the era of political correctness, where feminism (and almost everything, actually) was more concerned spreading hate and scaring the hell out of people than with social progress. So I was too intimidated to criticize WoT's presentation of gender, even though it was patently absurd.

 

Now that I'm older, and now that society approaches equality more casually, without the "confrontational" style of political correctness, I'm able to look at WoT with more perspective, and without fear of being burned at the stake for accusations of sexism. I'm outright ashamed that I ever gave the benefit of the doubt to WoT's interpretation of gender: it is horrible. It scares me to think back on the 1990s, and remember how oppressed we were by the omnipresent fear of being accused of bigotry. It's one thing to remember this abstractly, but to have the concrete example of WoT, and actually being afraid to criticize it in spite of its absurdity, makes the memory sharper and more chilling.

 

I still enjoy the series, but I think it's tainted by sexism, in a similar way that H. P. Lovecraft's works are tainted by racism. Some of it can be written off as "a product of its time", but excuses only go so far, and it takes effort to enjoy the works in spite of this.

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Woman called Egwene.

 

Must be a record for Egwene-bashing. 3rd post.

 

You must not be familiar with the WTF Egwene thread.

 

Actually, in that thread it was at post #8 :rolleyes: I still say this one was fast on the eg-bash :biggrin:

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For the first like... 6 books I think. maybe more, maybe less. the first third of the book was nothingness. it was a catch up from the last book but for a good 200 to 300 pages (for example: rand in tear after callendor.. gahhhh) I remember telling my boyfriend at the time "oh sweet!! its finally to the part of the story when something happens". i understand that some people had to wait for it to come out and so some things are needed to remind what has happened, but that is just way too much of the book to make me happy. it did start to go away though...

 

BUT the other thing i dislike about the books is the repetition in some descriptions. stone faced. aes sedai agelessness. tugging her braid. looking down at the nub where his left hand used to be. colors swirling EVERY TIME. the repetition drives me crazy. thesaurus people! sanderson uses the word "tempest" WAY too much. i understood in the gathering storm but there's no need for the over use of the word in ToM.

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Peoples inability to speak things through properly with each other. Everybody holding secrets, either to trying to gain them an upper hand through some scheming or simply because they are to afraid of the truth(Perrin and Mat).

 

So many issues, so many problems would've been solved so easily throughout the book, if people just sat down properly and spoke, without the intention of manipulating and scheming.

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I do not like the Perrin/Faile/Shaido plotline of doom.

 

[spoilerS FOR TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT]

 

 

 

There is a larger purpose to the sidestory of Perrin/Faile/Shaido/Seanchan. In TOM, Avi travels to the Waste and goes through the glass colums to become a Wise One. While there she sees the future of the Aiel. In that future, the children of Rand and Avi set out to start a war with the Seanchan because.... they have captured hundreds of Aiel (Shaido) Wise One channelers and collared them. The results of Perrin's battle with the Shaido and his deal with the Seanchan is the spark for the destruction of the Aiel as a People.

 

I'd hardly say that the plotline was pointless.

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<snip>

I'd hardly say that the plotline was pointless.

 

I would not say that I said the plotline was pointless. I was answering the question the thread title posted. Please read and pay attention before putting words in my mouth.

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What do I dislike most? Well, if I only get one choice, it would have to be the 2000 or so pages spent on the Faile's Shaido captivity. Jordan might have finished the series himself if he hadn't gone down that road. You can argue about whether this plotline was "pointless," but it sure could have been dealt with a LOT faster. A close second and third would be the whole Bowl of Winds and Valan Luca's Circus plotlines.

 

Aside from the plotlines mentioned above, the only other thing that really annoys me is the whole gender issue. As a guy, I find it incredibly annoying and tedious that virtually every woman seems to have absolutely zero respect for men, which in turn leads to some absolutely ridiculous failures to cooperate, share information, etc. I'm not sure if that's what other posters are referring to as "sexism" or not.

Edited by Beidomon
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Yeah, so we can basically blame Faile for the potential future destruction of the Aiel!

 

Nice! She is one of the things I hate about the series!

 

What I primarily dislike about her is her desire to be yelled at. It made me think her dad beat her mom, and what's really going on is she is wanting to be beaten by Perrin, but RJ refers to it as "yelling" because the whole domestic abuse thing was a little too much. When I re-read it though, I go ahead and read between the lines, and understand that Faile is actaully begging for a beating.

 

 

The repetition bugs me as well. The more times I re-read, the harder it is to understand. He explained what an *'angreal is in every single book, sure. But at the same time you are expected to keep all 1880 characters straight, with no reminders of who this person is. It's a head scratcher.

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Until Sanderson took over, most of the women in WoT, afterwards I only disliked & dislike Egwene (a lot) & I'm actually starting to like Tuon less (one of the few female characters that I liked when RJ was still around).

 

I also dislike the fact that these seems to be no decent communication amongst the good guys and that the forsaken, people who were feared and despised in the AoL seem to be total losers. The reason they got their reputation is also relatively weak, since indoctrination, teaching people to betray their neighbors, torturing and killing PoW and maybe even feeding their remains to animals still happens today in areas that are at war & even though I admit that the people who commit such acts usually aren't seen as good guys people hardly seem to care these days. It really makes me wonder what kind of wimps the good guys were during the AoL.

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what i dislike most about the series is that the author died without finishing it. and that he probably could have finished it in 3 books if he'd wanted to. 7 at the outside. and that i think those things, and i know they're petty thoughts.

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I think I'll have to do with the generalizations of gender. I don't like the idea that "strong" females have to be overbearing to everyone they meet. Especially the way it's taken to extreme with some of the characters.

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he probably could have finished it in 3 books if he'd wanted to. 7 at the outside.

 

3 to 7 books is an awfully big range. 3 is a bit ridiculous, but I do agree that RJ could have executed this series wonderfully in 7-8 books and, if he had, we might be watching "Wheel of Time" on HBO instead of Game of Thrones (though I think HBO is doing a generally tremendous job with that series).

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i don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that a reasonably concise writer could have told this story well in 3 books. given that RJ was never reasonably concise, i expand the range to 7, which is 2 books past where many many readers had enough and stopped reading the thing.

 

while the prose is nice, most of it, and most of the subplots, and most of the subcharacters, and most of the repetition, and most of the sidetrails are unnecessary to the story.

 

3 - 7 books. plenty of room for wandering. he could have told the main story/ies, ended it/them, and started on outriggers.

 

doggone it. it's my opinion, i'm entitled to it.

 

and my other opinion is that it's not naughty enough for HBO, at any length.

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The romances. GAH! Why does every character have to have a love interest. My biggest complaint is just hearing Gawyn want to break into the White Tower to save Egwene...without having any real relationship with her. Ugh!

 

 

And I don't like the portrayal (from the women's point of views) of all the males as stubborn, wool-headed, idiotic, macho, etc. etc. etc. Sheesh! I don't think it's right for a guy to slap a girl or what have you, but there should be some restraint to having almost every woman character slap or talk down to at least one man in the course of the series.

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The portrayal of the females when they interact with the male protagonists (the gender thing) and the "funny" rape of Mat.

 

First off! Heja Sverige. Ett steg närmare världsdominans! =P

 

Second: I dk if that was Jordan´s intention but maybe he portrayed the women as interacting with the men as he did, to make a statement how the men in our world act with women. Subversive writing... although if some of the men irl were as pigheaded as some of the women in WoT I would smack them.

And rape of women is still considered as something... like meh. Mean crime, rape is bad, but hey girl? What were you wearing and maybe you liked it rough? And nobody cares.

 

But my biggest one is! Nobody communicates! And I hate the fact that there is a man vs woman war going on. I really hope that will be reconciled at the end of the series.

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The portrayal of the females when they interact with the male protagonists (the gender thing) and the "funny" rape of Mat.

 

First off! Heja Sverige. Ett steg närmare världsdominans! =P

 

Second: I dk if that was Jordan´s intention but maybe he portrayed the women as interacting with the men as he did, to make a statement how the men in our world act with women. Subversive writing... although if some of the men irl were as pigheaded as some of the women in WoT I would smack them.

And rape of women is still considered as something... like meh. Mean crime, rape is bad, but hey girl? What were you wearing and maybe you liked it rough? And nobody cares.

 

I agree with you on this. I think RJ used gender reversal in his books to make his reader's think about gender relations in the real world. I will say that sometimes he did a good job with this, but at other times it could be confused for RJ expressing sexism towards women.

 

My least favorite thing about the series is the lack of strong climaxes at the end of the end of PoD and CoT. I feel like both books had a lot of good things going for them, but would have been better received if they had a more climatic climax.

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I dk if that was Jordan´s intention but maybe he portrayed the women as interacting with the men as he did, to make a statement how the men in our world act with women. Subversive writing... although if some of the men irl were as pigheaded as some of the women in WoT I would smack them.

And rape of women is still considered as something... like meh. Mean crime, rape is bad, but hey girl? What were you wearing and maybe you liked it rough? And nobody cares.

 

 

i think that's pretty darned to the mark.

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i don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that a reasonably concise writer could have told this story well in 3 books. given that RJ was never reasonably concise, i expand the range to 7, which is 2 books past where many many readers had enough and stopped reading the thing.

 

while the prose is nice, most of it, and most of the subplots, and most of the subcharacters, and most of the repetition, and most of the sidetrails are unnecessary to the story.

 

3 - 7 books. plenty of room for wandering. he could have told the main story/ies, ended it/them, and started on outriggers.

 

doggone it. it's my opinion, i'm entitled to it.

 

and my other opinion is that it's not naughty enough for HBO, at any length.

 

 

I think this post kicks arse.

 

My wonderful beautiful fiance and I had this talk the other night. She is a really really big WOT fan, she's the one who made me start reading them. I was busy reading The Dark Tower series over and over and studying that cycle. I believe that Steve King told a much better and more complex story, (I mean, more stuff happened) in just 7 books. My biggest point was that hell, this guy Miguel de Cervantes wrote more "stuff" into one big fat book called Don Quixote. Sure, we didn't get the description of each blade of grass, or every single person's outfit, but... A LOT of stuff happened! Almost as many stories as are told in the 13 books of WOT.

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