Game of Thrones

[hazelkrs1]

I don't think the books ever really make it out to seem like Ned is average with a sword, just that he loathes the idea of "playing" at swordfighting. Ned saved it for the battlefield, not for the jousting tourney. Jaime is definitely described as one of the best swords of the realm, but I agree with the previous poster in that their facial expressions let you see who's trying harder during their duel. As for Ned neeing 7 guys to take down 3 knights, that was back when the Kingsguard was filled with the legendary knights of the realm, not the cesspool of Cersei lovers and fat old men that its become. Arthur Dayne was most likely the best swordsmen of anyone we've seen or heard from in the series, I could see him almost taking 3 of the guys that Ned brought by himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also..... the Loras/Renly scene did not sit with me well at all. I do feel kinda stupid for dismissing whatever clues that I might have skimmed over, but still... the extent to which theyre emasculating Loras is a bit over the top. He's supposed to be a great sword still, but not many will take him too seriously after that episode. My friends comin over to watch it on demand in a couple of hours, should I warn him?

[Visar Falmaien]

I didn't realy see them emasculating Loras (he's a naive moron I'll say, but emasculate? At least he can fight and has talent for it, at least sport style), rather I thought they did that majorly to Renly, like him not being able to stand the sight of blood. I never thought he was that much of a pansy.

 

For the Ned/Jaime fight, I just thought it lasted too long and looked cliche. The fights between Jon and the boys on the night's watch was way better. The fight between the Hound and the Mountain was ok. It really annoys me to see fights get to the "clash position" and then they don't actually do anything with it and back off. But that's a pet peeve of mine so I suppose for movie fights it was pretty good.

 

And yeah Jaime looked like he was having fun, Ned looked like he was struggling to me. Maybe that's all we're getting. I suppose given Sean Bean who's going to want to have a sword fight, and Jaime who'd also want a sword fight with Ned, the scene worked pretty well as far as I could tell. It showed the characters, though it also showed the whole inflation of combatants (much easier to take out guards than one guy)

 

I'm looking to see more of Jon and Daenerys next week.

[Emperor]

Loras unseated the Mountain.... so I am not sure how the show emasculated him. The extra scene surprised me like most everyone else but really should not be anything you need to warn your friends about. Before we say it emasculates Renly lets watch how the story plays out. We knew from the books that Renly's strengths were not the same as his brothers... his was being well loved by the people.

[hazelkrs1]

Loras unseated the Mountain.... so I am not sure how the show emasculated him. The extra scene surprised me like most everyone else but really should not be anything you need to warn your friends about. Before we say it emasculates Renly lets watch how the story plays out. We knew from the books that Renly's strengths were not the same as his brothers... his was being well loved by the people.

 

Even when he unseated Gregor it was still made clear that he had used a trick though. And during the manlove scene first he's shaving Renly's chest, then he services him, plus that look he gave Renly after handing Sansa the rose, and don't forget how pathetic he looked after the Mountain knocks him off his horse and he ends up needing to be saved by a dog... overall I do feel that if you were a stranger to this series you wouldnt have a high amount of admiration for Loras' martial ability, something that the books definitely conveyed.

 

Ok, if they were gay for eachother in the books and I missed it, fine. If I'm going to find out about this by seeing them getting freaky with eachother on my 55-inch screen.... sure whatever. But if they are going to do that I think they should balance it out with scenes showing what a BA he is. Maybe after he finally gets back up when Gregor knocks him down, after Gregor and Sandor's fight, he tries going at the Mountain and his squire and someone else have to hold him back. Maybe he stabs himself instead of Renly to show him blood. Maybe they get an actor who doesnt look almost exactly like Leonardo Dicaprio in Man in the Iron Mask. I dunno, something.

[Emperor]

Maybe he could also change his name from Knight of the Flowers to something more manly like Knight of the Bloody Sword while you are at it. We could also beef him up a little... he was way to skinny.

 

Sorry Loras was a great swordsman and fighter but he does not have the strength of the Mountain. If the Mountain knocked any person off their horse they would look that pathetic. And so what, he used a trick. With his training he outwit someone with more brute strength. Bravo. I am sorry you have issues watching the scene. Personally I think they rushed into it. But I certainly do not think less of either character because they are gay.... or because they showed us what happens when they are together.

 

I don't think (I know) Loras' story is over yet. I am sure we will see him get more badass down the road.

[Krakalakachkn]

I don't mind the homosexual element between the two - it certainly makes more sense considering that Margery's was often rumoured to be a virgin. I did however think that Loras looks a wee bit thin to be considered such a strong fighter. He looks as if it would take two of him to lift a broadsword (which is quite possibly the stupidest and most pondersome weapon ever invented).

 

I also think that they should have waited at least another episode before bringing out the servicing/shaving scene. We don't know either character well enough and people watching will probably hereafter refer to both of them as "those gay guys" instead of their merit as an awesome fighter and a noble king (or almost king).

 

 

And Loras does bear quite a resemblance to a young Leo, I agree with you there Despo.

[Werthead]

With Loras the actor was cast about 4 weeks before they started filming. He actually took a crash course in horse-riding and how to ride with a lance, but he didn't have time to bulk up to the extent of the other actors (the actors playing Jaime, Robb, Jon and Theon were cast for the pilot, for example, and had 6-7 months to get into shape, as we saw in the first episode in the hair-cutting scene, and with Theon in this week's episode). HBO accepted that as the trade-off to get what they considered to be the best actor for the role (apparently Finn Jones used some of Loras's more emotionally-tortured scenes in ASoS during his audition and really impressed the casting people).

 

(I'm wondering how they did the scene with the kid... CG super-imposed? did he 'know' what he was supposed to be doing?)

 

Prosthetic. One of the special effects guys was talking ages ago about having to make a fake breast and people were going, "Huh?"

[hazelkrs1]

Maybe he could also change his name from Knight of the Flowers to something more manly like Knight of the Bloody Sword while you are at it. We could also beef him up a little... he was way to skinny.

 

Sorry Loras was a great swordsman and fighter but he does not have the strength of the Mountain. If the Mountain knocked any person off their horse they would look that pathetic. And so what, he used a trick. With his training he outwit someone with more brute strength. Bravo. I am sorry you have issues watching the scene. Personally I think they rushed into it. But I certainly do not think less of either character because they are gay.... or because they showed us what happens when they are together.

 

I don't think (I know) Loras' story is over yet. I am sure we will see him get more badass down the road.

 

I think you might be misunderstanding me; I don't take exception at all to Loras' characterization in the books. I won't say he was one of my favorites necessarily, but I definitely liked him. My problem is with how he is being characterized in the show. The name Knight of Flowers definitely conjures an image, and any good name like that (Sword of the Morning, The Smiling Knight, etc) should conjure an image. It also makes sense because the flower is the sigil of his house. I like his name, I like how he used his smarts to defeat Gregor, I like that is both a great swordfighter and the medieval version of Hansen, Jonas brothers, and Justin Bieber all rolled together. But the show isnt going to be able to present everything in the same way as the books, they have to be creative and find ways to show the same thing in different ways. Overall I think the show is doing a spectacular job of transmorphing the story from words to images.

 

I just think, as of now, they've erred slightly in their overall depiction of Loras. Of course anyone would look pathetic getting knocked down by the Mountain, but that doesn't mean you have to make it look that way. All it takes is the right camera angle, and you can make it look like Loras IS a badass and he just got cheap-shotted. Or, you can change the angle and make it seem that Loras is weeping as Gregor pounds on his shield. It didn't get that bad, but once again if you didn't read the books, I think the average viewer will dismiss Loras somewhat as just another pansy boy after that episode, which was his first episode btw. I agree with Krakalakachkn in that it might have been better to save the shaving scene for a little bit later on.

 

Also, I didn't get squeamish watching the scene because of any latent homophobic tendencies I might have. I am pretty liberal and of course I am accepting of any demographic on this beautiful planet we share. I first was surprised and kinda upset because I thought they had majorly altered part of the story. I found out I was wrong when I read some stuff online. I did get a little uncomfortable later when it did get a little bit steamy, but I don't think that makes me a bad person. I happen to be heterosexual, and two men making love is a bit of a turn-off for me, just as I assume a scene of heterosexual sex would be equally unappealing for a gay man or woman. Something that is so foreign to you tends to make you uncomfortable, I also would be squeamish if I watched someone eating placenta, even though that is practiced fairly widely in many cultures across the world. However, just because it is foreign to me doesn't mean I look down on anyone who is into that kind of thing. Diversity should be celebrated, I hate the idea that people should be colorblind. You shoudn't use skin color, religous beliefs, sexual orientation, or anything like that to judge anyone, but let's not pretend we're all the exact same. We share many things in common, but the differences between us help give us our identity. So Emperor, please don't be too quick to judge me in return

[Visar Falmaien]

He looks as if it would take two of him to lift a broadsword (which is quite possibly the stupidest and most pondersome weapon ever invented).

Stupid and pondersome? I weigh under 130 lbs., arguably have a much thinner and less muscular build than tv-show Ser Loras, and I can use a longsword (which most knights use in the series) or a "broad" sword just fine. Medieval swords (often mistakenly called "broadswords" which are actually first used to describe later baskethilts in the 18th century), even two handed greatswords, rarely weighed over five pounds (the heaviest I've seen documented designed for battle was around 8 or 9 lbs., and we're talking about 6' long two-hander swords here) and were excellently balanced. Your average one handed sword weighed only a little over two pounds or about a kilogram. Your average two handed longsword, a mainstay for Westerosi knights, was about half again that much. Ever held a real antique rather than a crappy movie sword replica? I have, and they feel almost impossibly light.

 

I think that up against a giant like Ser Gregor, anyone's going to look like a pansy. I remember how little I thought Sandor looked compared to the guy when they squared off for their fight (yeah it's a tv fight I wasn't expecting any decent sword techniques; however I have been impressed with the scenes with Syrio Forel and Jon Snow when they fight).

 

I think Ser Loras looks just fine in the show. True, they don't spend much time on him being a well skilled warrior (though mostly of tournament fighting and not real combat). Cf. Jaime with a well rounded sport and war background, or Ned who almost exclusively practiced for war. But for Loras, being thin doesn't mean he's not muscular enough, he's just not ridiculously "300 Spartan" buff (most ancient greeks/romans would have a build smaller than the average male athlete today due to diet and different focuses for exercising). If you look at artwork in the medieval period, most people who fought were decently muscled but had for the most part a slender or slightly stocky build. There weren't many Schwarzenegger bodybuilders though you do see a glorification of the muscular male body very much in Renaissance art, where it becomes more of an ideal. Lean muscle is more important in swordwork, where the goal is to move the blade and yourself faster, than brute force. That applies to using medieval weapons too, which were far from ponderous or stupid and do not take overly much strength to use right.

 

If you would like me to link you to articles which prove my point I'd be glad to. The idea that medieval swords were super heavy and pondersome is a fallacious myth first spouted by biased idiots in the Victorian period.

 

I have mixed opinions about the swordwork depicted in the show. Some of it is not bad for a tv show, but sadly none of it looks all that accurate as to how people actually fight with the things. It's a tv show I don't really expect them to show realistic fighting over storified fighting (and in that way they've done very well), but it still annoys me. I remember watching one of the artisan series clips and they mentioned that the (probably blunt) sword that was for Ser Gregor was 12 lbs. 12 lbs!!! That's ridiculously heavy (twice the weight of a greatsword that length), even for the mountain. He could wield a Renaissance two-hander almost as tall as he that would be lighter. I suppose a tourney blunt might be heavier as they were never designed to have quite as refined balance as a sharp sword, but still. 12 lbs... (mutters) Only for the Mountain.

[Krakalakachkn]

Nah, it's cool. I'm prone to hyperbole every so often. It's just funny to see these guys lifting this huge sword when Syrio could kill them 5 times in the amount of time it took to lift the broadsword. Speed and Technique > Strength

[hazelkrs1]

Visar Falmaien, while you seem to be a fan of the blade, and although I have dabbled in swordfighting I'm sure you know much more about the subject than I do, you are leaving out a little bit of info. First of all I believe Krakalak meant to refer to a greatsword, or possibly a longsword. Longswords tended to weigh roughly 4-8 lbs., greatswords about 6-10 lbs. Now, even though 4-8 lbs might not seem that much to most people, wielding that weight at the end of an extended grip actually takes a lot of strength and control, and the added 2-4 lbs that come with wielding a longsword or greatsword vs. a lighter blade like a hand an a half or scimitar or epee, can actually REALLY tire you out in an extended fight. Than there's the fact that metals used in swordmaking varied from region to region, and in some areas (like Scotland for instance) they used a lot more iron than steel until much later in the medieval period, and this accounted for swords in some areas as being considered VERY hefty, one Scottish greatsword I've read about was said to weigh 16 lbs.!!! You're right in that swords back then were generally very good quality and balanced very well, but no matter how well balanced a sword is every time you swing it it takes a little bit more energy than the swing before. So in general, the depiction of longswords and greatswords being cumbersome, overheavy, and unwieldy is actually pretty accurate.

 

For evidence just look to when they started matching different swordfighting styles against eachother in tournaments in the years leading up to the Renaissance; the traditional western style of swordfighting was always drastically undermatched compared to the arabic and oriental swordfighting styles, both of which used lighter blades than medieval knights counterparts. In fact, during the Crusades, so many knights saw the mismatch between their blades and the curved scimitars used by the Muslims that they adopted the style of blade, and thus the Falchion blade was born. It was brought back to Europe along with many other new ideas and philosophies, and possibly helped sow the seeds which would sprout into the Renaissance.

[SinisterDeath]

Visar Falmaien, while you seem to be a fan of the blade, and although I have dabbled in swordfighting I'm sure you know much more about the subject than I do, you are leaving out a little bit of info. First of all I believe Krakalak meant to refer to a greatsword, or possibly a longsword. Longswords tended to weigh roughly 4-8 lbs., greatswords about 6-10 lbs. Now, even though 4-8 lbs might not seem that much to most people, wielding that weight at the end of an extended grip actually takes a lot of strength and control, and the added 2-4 lbs that come with wielding a longsword or greatsword vs. a lighter blade like a hand an a half or scimitar or epee, can actually REALLY tire you out in an extended fight. Than there's the fact that metals used in swordmaking varied from region to region, and in some areas (like Scotland for instance) they used a lot more iron than steel until much later in the medieval period, and this accounted for swords in some areas as being considered VERY hefty, one Scottish greatsword I've read about was said to weigh 16 lbs.!!! You're right in that swords back then were generally very good quality and balanced very well, but no matter how well balanced a sword is every time you swing it it takes a little bit more energy than the swing before. So in general, the depiction of longswords and greatswords being cumbersome, overheavy, and unwieldy is actually pretty accurate.

 

Theres one little aspect that is being forgotten here. You have weapons of war, and then you have weapons of fighting contests.

 

IN war, all it takes is 1 hit, and your enemy is either dead, our out of the fight. And a big sword? well lets face it, compared to armor, You need something Heavy, Pointy, that can pentrate through armor.

 

For evidence just look to when they started matching different swordfighting styles against eachother in tournaments in the years leading up to the Renaissance; the traditional western style of swordfighting was always drastically undermatched compared to the arabic and oriental swordfighting styles, both of which used lighter blades than medieval knights counterparts. In fact, during the Crusades, so many knights saw the mismatch between their blades and the curved scimitars used by the Muslims that they adopted the style of blade, and thus the Falchion blade was born. It was brought back to Europe along with many other new ideas and philosophies, and possibly helped sow the seeds which would sprout into the Renaissance.

 

Its probably argueable, but The Crusades probably went so good for the Europeans because of our investment into heavilly armored combatants, versus their not-so-heavilly-armored-armored combatants.

really, the people that were most affected by said clash of fighting styles were your non-knights, your normal foot soldier, And those who actually had enough money to afford a sword, and not armor. And sine in Game of Thrones, they wear Armor,the Mountains 16 pound sword, really isn't all that unreasonable. You have to remember, The Mountains a Soldier, Not a pansy that 'plays war'. He uses that sword, because it allows him to deliver the most damage on the field. And you know, If he has the strength to wield that sword, For the same duration as Loras has with his flimsly 2 pounder, whats it matter? He might swing slower, But he's also probably got thicker armor than the rest of them to boot.

 

And, he probably could have had a lighter sword made, of the same length, but opted for a heavier, more sturdier version for 3 simple reasons.

1. It won't dull/break/chip as easilly

2. It will go threw armor like a can opener.

3. The added weight, combined with his strength, Allows for even a slashing move of the sword, to knock an armored foe Sensless (it may as well be a Mace at that weight) And against an un-armored combatant? It'll slice em in half... (like he did the horse for gods sakes.)

 

Be glad, The Mountain is to stupid to know about the exstance of War-Hammers, War-Axes, and most of all, Pole Arms/Axes. You don't want to know the kind of devistation that kind of man could pull with one of those things.

[Suttree]

So now that we are six or so episodes in I have a gripe and want to see if anyone has noticed.

 

What is up with how off the scale is for certain scenes? The most noticeable to me have been the Dothraki Sea(looks like 15 or so people riding horses, not much of a horde really), the Hand's Tournament(where are the screaming crowds, it's the king and his family having a picnic!) and tonight Robert's hunt in the woods.(Renly, Ser Barristan and Lancel...really the king of the seven kingdoms trooping through the woods with two other people in sight!) Dunno why but it seriously bugs me, right up there with how cheesy all the Dothraki scenes have been.

[hazelkrs1]

So now that we are six or so episodes in I have a gripe and want to see if anyone has noticed.

 

What is up with how off the scale is for certain scenes? The most noticeable to me have been the Dothraki Sea(looks like 15 or so people riding horses, not much of a horde really), the Hand's Tournament(where are the screaming crowds, it's the king and his family having a picnic!) and tonight Robert's hunt in the woods.(Renly, Ser Barristan and Lancel...really the king of the seven kingdoms trooping through the woods with two other people in sight!) Dunno why but it seriously bugs me, right up there with how cheesy all the Dothraki scenes have been.

 

I do agree with you about the scale thing, they prob should have budgeted for a lot more extras. And it's not just in certain scenes where it wouldn't be cost effective to fill a market with a screaming throng; even in smaller scenes they're still leaving out a good amount of bystanders. You mentioned the King's hunt, I also noticed that with the scene tonight when Theon saved Bran. In the books it was a much bigger group that went with Bran than just Robb and Theon. It might be that they're trying to make certain scenes more intimate I suppose, but that's just a stab in the dark. Overall though I think the great job they've done with casting and with production value outweighs some of the inconsistencies we've noticed.

 

 

Theres one little aspect that is being forgotten here. You have weapons of war, and then you have weapons of fighting contests.

 

IN war, all it takes is 1 hit, and your enemy is either dead, our out of the fight. And a big sword? well lets face it, compared to armor, You need something Heavy, Pointy, that can pentrate through armor.

 

That is very true, war is definitely different from contests, but even though your logic is very sound and many millions have agreed with that notion for quite some time, it still doesn't always hold water in practical purposes. The most famed fighting forces in history have in general always favored light armor that favors mobility, paired with a weapon that is both very easy to wield and multifunctional. Look at the whirling dervish, the samurai, warriors of Alexander the Great, the Prussian cavalry (which existed during the medieval period), etc. The concept of a heavily armored knight charging into battle slaying any foe he comes across is somewhat misplaced; knights were of course the officers back then, and their purpose often had much more to do with keeping troops morale up just by looking shiny and pristine, and by leading the occassional cavalry charge to break a line (in which case their armored horse often did the most damage trampling over foot soldiers). They also would duel in single combat sometimes to settle either a personal dispute or to end a battle with less bloodshed. So, their effectiveness would most likely be very limited against other forces which didn't have similar knights using similar weaponry.

 

Its probably argueable, but The Crusades probably went so good for the Europeans because of our investment into heavilly armored combatants, versus their not-so-heavilly-armored-armored combatants.

 

The crusades went well for the Europeans? Their were 16 different crusades (17 if you count the children's crusade, which of course I don't) which spanned many decades and yet the farthest they ever got was Istanbul (or Constantinople, but really it's nobody's business but the Turks) and the Muslim empire at that time was pretty enormous. I wouldn't exactly call that a success. The reason many knights returned from there was that they mainly used slaves and commoners for the fighting. Most of the times their sieges were extremely ineffective, and the few times they met on open landscapes the Muslims usually claimed victory (with the help of those famous dervishes I mentioned earlier)

 

You have to remember, The Mountains a Soldier, Not a pansy that 'plays war'. He uses that sword, because it allows him to deliver the most damage on the field. And you know, If he has the strength to wield that sword, For the same duration as Loras has with his flimsly 2 pounder, whats it matter? He might swing slower, But he's also probably got thicker armor than the rest of them to boot.

 

That is very true, but you would also have to remember that Gregor represents a freak of nature. He's 8 feet tall, has uncanny strength, and can walk with wounds that would kill any other man. So he doesn't represent the norm for your average soldier lol. Of course he can wield a huge greatsword without it tiring him quickly like it would others, and I agree with his weapon choice, it definitely suits him.

 

One other thing I would contest though is that it wouldn't dull/break/chip as easily. It wouldn't break as easily thats true, but the ability to hold its edge has more to do with the quality of materials used making it and the design of it. And really, it would actually dull and chip more, because of the manner in which you would use it. You will swing a greatsword in a deliberate manner, your opponent can usually tell where your blow is directed, but it's such a strong blow that it still isn't easy to defend. Someone wielding a broadsword or falchion blade will be more "flashy" with his sword, he will be deceptive in where his strikes will land, he can change balance easier, and even redirect his blade if he sees an hole open in your defenses for a moment. The greatsword will meet steel and shield more often than a smaller blade will, and it carries so much more momentum because of it's weight that it creates very forceful impacts, which will chip and dull his blade along with the victims's sword and shield. The falchion blade will be parried less, and when used to parry the wielder would angle his blade to redirect the flow of energy so the sword wouldn't take the full brunt of the damage from his opponents swing. The advantage for the greatsword however, is that even if it's a little dull, or chipped in many places, it won't lose that much effectiveness because it's so freakin heavy!

 

Just to let you know, I actually root for the guys with the huge swords in movies or shows because it looks so cool and it makes for a great choreographed scene if done right. I mean, look at the climactic swordfight in Rob Roy for example (GREAT movie for those who haven't seen it). Tim Roth dances around like a little fairy scoring a lot more small hits on Rob Roy with his rapier (if I remember correctly thats what he used) while in the end Rob Roy connects on ONE blow, which is of course enough to do the trick as he wields a Scottish claymore (greatsword). Makes for an awesome scene, but unfortunately in reality he probably would have lost. Those small cuts scored by a light blade take their toll fairly quickly when you're overexerting yourself, and pretty soon your defense would be meaningless and youd get shredded.

[Visar Falmaien]

Ok I apologize for making an off topic discussion. I'll respond as briefly as possible though I have plenty more to say. Shall we make another thread in the debates and discussion forum?

 

Here are three articles concerning sword weight. I stand by my initial estimates.

 

short answer

weight

long answer

how much did swords weigh

two handers:

weight of two handed greatswords

 

So in general, the depiction of longswords and greatswords being cumbersome, overheavy, and unwieldy is actually pretty accurate

Also wrong based on the evidence we have of how they were actually used and based on surviving examples of swords. I can elaborate and provide plenty of links but I'll save that for later discussion. Basically, the problem with your statement is that a lot of historians have confused parade or practice swords (heavier ones) for swords meant for battle, so the weight range is a lot greater than is practical.

 

the traditional western style of swordfighting was always drastically undermatched compared to the arabic and oriental swordfighting styles, both of which used lighter blades than medieval knights counterparts. In fact, during the Crusades, so many knights saw the mismatch between their blades and the curved scimitars used by the Muslims that they adopted the style of blade, and thus the Falchion blade was born.

Where are you getting this assumption? And what do you consider the "traditional western style of swordfighting"?

 

There are plenty of accounts from the arab/turkic perspective that suggest the other way around (middle eastern or oriental martial artists getting pummeled by western practitioners, whose mail protected them from their arrows). Each area had its developed martial arts, but if anything the middle east had one of the weakest (by surviving evidence anyway) traditions for close combat. Great horsemen and spearmen though. Like the Dornish :D

 

Muslim warriors during the Crusades were not using scimitars. Also, the scimitar is descended from the turko-mongol saber, which was introduced into the Arab world in the late 1200s with the mongol conquests, post crusades.

history of the scimitar

 

Regarding the falchion.

falchion The falchion was not a "scimitar" descendent.

 

I don't agree with some of the things you've said Sinister, but since this is off topic (my bad ack!) I'll not go into it since it's mostly a historical discussion and not a discussion on the show. So back on that.

 

I agree with you Suttree, the dothraki scenes seem to be very small scale and can be kinda cheesy. Oh well, tv budget. I like Dany's development all the same even if it isn't perfect.

 

I liked the end of the bronn/ser vardis fight. interesting change from the book, but it works and I know they would have wanted to reuse a set.

 

For the next episode, are we going to see Jon Snow at the Wall again? Been a while.

 

Edit: oops didn't see your post there Despora. Don't agree with you on greatsword weight but you make some good points on just about everything else.

 

And yeah, it's the Mountain. Freak of nature. It's a fantasy book/show not a historical work, so obviously it's not going to be as concerned with being "accurate" with the weapons thing. What I sometimes have a problem with is people connecting the fantasy and assuming that it equates with historical reality.

 

But that is probably a discussion for another thread?

 

Moving on.

[Majsju]

A problem with the discussion about swords here is that it seems to miss that we are talking about a period that spanned several hundred years, and swords changed.

 

A (somewhat somplified9 summary would be: more armour -> heavier swords. The really heavy greatswords were mostly used by the image of knights that are the most popular in media, ie completely covered in platemail. They had greatswords that weighed well over 10 kilos, to use from horseback in a melee, basically a glorified club. But if you're going to fight a duel, you obviously want a lighter sword.

 

So any claims that "this is right and that is wrong" does not quite work, unless you point to a specific point in time. Which Martin does not really do, as he mixes quite a bit so he can use everything he likes. And then the TV-producers mixes it around even more, for example switching platemail to a mix of chainmail and studded leather for some characters.

[SinisterDeath]

for example switching platemail to a mix of chainmail and studded leather for some characters.

 

Just have to say, that real plate-armor made use of chain & leather even under the actual plate-armor. to help reinforce the weaker joints.

 

And yea, the mountain is most definately a freak of nature (is he actually 8 feet tall in the books?)

I'd really, really not want to be on the recieving end of the Mountain wielding a

 

with the necissary skill set behind it.

[Visar Falmaien]

masju, swords over 10 kilos? That's impossible! Read that article about greatswords, using EXISTING EXAMPLES, as well as a subsection calculating what a 20 or 40 lb sword would look like (10 kilos would be around 25-30 lbs?)

Here's why with another article,

swordheavy

 

There's your 30 lb. sword. That look practical to you?

And using a greatsword from horseback? Also ludicrous. Horsemen almost always use single handed swords or longswords (swords able to be used in both one or two hands, also called bastard or hand-and-a-half, those are subsets of longswords).

 

I'm saying you guys are wrong because you're not actually offering any ACTUAL sources on this, or actual charts with sword weights or appearance, or actual evidene of your assertions.

 

And since this is off topic, may I ask that we take this sword talk to the debate board? I made a thread for it.

Here it is:

sword thread

 

The Mountain using a poll-axe. Yeah that would be terrifying! Or a big mace or two-handed axe(shudders). He'd be hulk smashing left and right!

[Red2111]

okay about the Loras & Renly talk. i think honestly their doing great on the show to use the little screen time both characters have in the first book to set a good base of judgement for these characters.

 

for Loras's size, he's about what i suspected; yes, maybe a bit more toned in the books, but i still expected him to be a skinny musclar, not fully formed but a mature teen toned body of someone who is psychically fit. in the books, Loras is what 18, maybe 20. with what, 3 or 4 years on the Kings Gaurd. yes he's a great swords man, but right now he lacks any training other than that provided in the kings gaurd and in tounrey. he's a younge adult and a resemblance of Jamie in his youth before the mad king was slain. Loras also lacks the build that one would aquire while fighting in a war versus practicing in a yard. now in the next season, when we see Loras again, i expect him to be much more mauture in muscle tone and more chisled (like Brad Pitt in Troy).

 

as for the fight against the Mountian and how Loras was potrayed, it was exactly how i pictured in the books as well. here is this haulking giant, meanicing man going against this prancing pretty boy who looks like he can hold his own maybe for a second. the Mountain was a war hardened man, while Loras was a pretty boy who hasn't taken another mans life or fought in a true battle. to Loras at this time, sword fighting is nothing more than pomp & circ and a way to show off for the crowd and raise his reputation. in the books, Loras was severly emasculated in this tourney when the Mountain knocked him off his horse and preceeded to try and kill him. Loras was able to just deflect the blows while at the same time crawling backwards to try and flee and enraged beast of a man. he was scared out of his mind, shocked that another competitor would be such a sore loser, and unprepared to defend himself due to be taken off gaurd. in this situation, theres no way to make him look anything more than what they did, and too me, conveyed the same thoughts i had of Loras at this time in the series as i did when i first read that part of the books.

 

with Renly, again, i think their doing a wonderful job to showcase that he's not a confrontational man at heart. from his being squemish at the sight of blood, to his running away from a confrontation with Robert. Renly was always potrayed inthe books as "a lover not a figter" he'd rather talk his way out of a conflict than go had to head. HBO is using the little legit time they have for screen with his character to build a decent perception and background for him. again, with Loras, Renly doesn't really become a developed or well intorduced character until book 2.

 

the shaving scene ... seeing how their progressing with the plot line, and knowing what is comming; if HBO was goign to include a scene like that, it was really the best place to do so. anywhere else right now wouldhave felt out of place and forced in, while where they put it flowed very well with the series. again, this scene could have easily been left out until next season, the lok they gave eachother during the tourney was enough to hint to people "hey theres somethign with those two" and Roberts convo of "making the 8" and Renlys reaction of disgust woud have more than helped further the hint. but HBO wanted to use this for two reasons in my opinion, appeal to a different demographic & once again use what little space they had to help explain the background most readers already know so its not having to be done in a rush "oh crap we need to explain this before we show this sceen" type way.

 

 

as for the issue people have with the lack of extras, well i have to say seeing as the budget for this show is ungodly expensive and the amount of detail they've put into the food, art, clothes ect of the show; i'm not that disheartened by the lack of "crowds' they have for certain scenes. especailly since the cost of that many extras could well cause the show not to be fundable. also, with the two scenes you guys are talking about, the hunt with Robert & the scene in Winterfell, the focus is once again on character building. in these two situations, i think having a bunch of extras walking in the background would detract away or distract from the character building & background laying HBO was trying to acomplish.

 

 

as to last night episode, i LOVED the scenes with Danny!!! my god the "crowning" scene was EPIC, though i was just as disgusted by the heart eating scene as i was in the books lol!!! the actor who played Viserys was wonderful, and i love that they used the time to hint at Moromounts lust for Danny as well. i did think i rememebred Danny being the one to tell Visery's that he couldn't take the Dragon Eggs though. i also loved the hint about the eggs too, with Danny's hands not getting burned and her now fixation on Dragons (btw i so cannot wait for the season finale either!!!! this epi and the last were the two i've been looking forawrd to most since i heard they were making this show)

 

another part of the epi i loved, the look on Sean Ben's face when that light bulb went off when Sansa was talking about Joff being nothing like Robert. PERFECT!!!!!! absolutely loved it!!!

 

 

the only beef i have is the lack of the Direwovles during the hunt scene, and the lack of the Direwolf prescence as a whole. it makes me rather fearful of what HBO will do, considering how important the Direwolves and Starks are later on in the series.

[Visar Falmaien]

Great post Red! I agree with you on Loras and Renly. Though, I don't recall Loras actually fighting until the Blackwater battle...

 

And I loved what they've done with the Dany arc in the time they've had. Yeah, you don't actually see 40,000 dothraki running around. One, I'd rather not see too many CGI warriors. And two, I can use my imagination and enjoy what they give me ;) There seemed to be 50-100 people in the tent with the "crown of gold" scene at the end. And that's just Drogo's "court" and/or family and retainers.

 

Anybody else think the actor who plays Mormont is doing a fantastic job? I like how they're handling him being a, well a you know what, with Dany. And Viserys's comment about his lust for her was great to hear.

 

What does everyone want to see in the next episode? I personally feel like we haven't seen Jon at the Wall in a long time, so I think they'll go back to that as well as do some crucial king's landing. Perhaps they'll also show Tyrion meeting someone who likes to say "cut off his ___ and feed it to the goats?"

[Red2111]

thanks Visar!!

 

yes! the actor playing Mormount is great!!! he's got that standoffish attitude, yet you can see the protective and caring side he has for Danny. i love that like the books, Danny see's him more as a father figure right now; and you can see withthe actor the internal struggle from the logning looks to the composed self restrained look he has when near Danny. you can see the internal conflict in him through the actor, which is absolutely brilliant given how that plot progresses.

 

 

who i really want to meet, more than the guy your talking about, is Tywin Lannister. i can't wait to see how the actor does with this character and to see this manipulating master mind of a cold hearted .... well you know lmao. anyways, i can't wait to see how he's played on screen. so far, all the actors are hitting their characters great now, even the actress that plays Cerscie (thoguh i still feel they're making her too sympathetic) is starting to show the Cerscie we all love to hate.

 

 

and OMG, did anyone else want to reach into the screen and slap Sansa across her face for acting liek a spoiled little brat!!! i kept muttering "naive little bird" the entire time. that little actress is pegging her to a tee!!! i love it. and Ayra, my gosh it's like she's literally jumped off the pages and onto the screen!!! even down to the snarky look and gruff exasperated "i'm a GIRL". the children actors in this show are stealing the screen everytime they're on there. including little Robert in ther Errie. he was spaced out, had a blood lust for the battle and a screechy little voice that i'd expect from that character. and i forgot to mention that i agree about Cat's sis, once again (and i see i'm repeating myself here) the actress is doign great. you can see that under that little calm exterior facade theres a truely mad woman who is mentally imbalanced. did you guys see how the actress was when Bron won the fight, it was a truely manic moment the switching of emotions that played on her face from anticipation, to anger at losing, to a smug grin of "i'll call him out on cheating and still have the Imps head".

 

and i might add while i'm at it, Bron was excellent!!

 

 

to say what i expect to see next episode woudl be spoiling stuff for those who haven't read the books, which is something i want to avoid, so i'll use the spoiler tag lmao

 

before i do that, i think the areas we'll see are Dothraki, Kings Landing and most likely Castlerly Rock, maybe a bit of Winterfell. i don't think we'll get back to the Wall until epi 8, and then it should focus on John for that entire epi to play catch up *nods* i dunno if they will have enough time, with the supper jaw dropping events about to happen in Kings Landing, to focus on much else tbh

 

 

as for what i expect to see inthis next episode is

 

- attempt on Danny's life

- Robert's death (i really hope HBO shows the Boar attack too, it was one thing that happened in the background that i had wanted to see)

- Ned exposing he knows about Cersies dirty little secret to her

- the fire in the Hand's Tower

- meeting Tywin & maybe a hint as to what will happen in season two as far as the wars and such

- more info about Dragons and Danny's family

- maybe Tyrion getting taken hostage by the Mountain guys

 

and of course, ending the apisode with Cersie eating the hog that killed Robert and saying "Boar has never tasted so good"

 

[Rufae]

The actor who plays Tywin is the same one who played Patrician Vetinari in the BBC Discworld movies recently. He did an awesome job playing ubber creepy and sneaky Vetinari. I have no doubt as to what he will bring to Tywin.

 

 

[Elend]

On future episodes:

 

 

I'm 90% sure episode 8 will concentrate on Ned's arrest and the politics surrounding that. Its name, "The Pointy End", is a direct reference to Arya killing the stableboy in her escape. So we'll likely get up to Ned's arrest.

 

Episode 9 will be Ned's execution. The name of the episode is Baelor- Ned was executed on the steps of the Great Sept, I believe called Baelor's Steps or something like that.

 

Episode 10 will be Dany. Fire and Blood- it'll be her attempt to revive Drogo, and the ensuing dragons. They will likely interweave the events leading up to the major events together though, so we may see Drogo being wounded in 8 or 9, etc.

 

I don't recall Jon doing much on the Wall in the first book. Does he actually leave and go beyond it at the end, or is that the start of book 2? Either way they can put that in season 2 if they have to, so we may not see much more Jon this season.

 

 

My favorite scene in episode 6 has to be when Arya and Sansa are being told their going. Maise Williams just killed in that scene, with her running commentary on Sansa's objections.

 

But I'm really sad to see Viserys go. I mean, I know he dies in the book and its entirely necessary, its just the actor absolutely killed in that role. If I'm put to the question I have to acknowledge Harry Lloyd as having taken a character and completely made it his own. If Maise seems pulled straight from the books to play Arya, Lloyd feels like the opposite- that the book version came from the TV version. That's just how much he rocked the role.

 

ETA: Also, on Renly, I kinda like what they've done with the character. It's a bit extreme, I know, what with the whole afraid of blood thing. But I think he's fairly sympathetic.

[SingleMort]

On future episodes:

 

 

I'm 90% sure episode 8 will concentrate on Ned's arrest and the politics surrounding that. Its name, "The Pointy End", is a direct reference to Arya killing the stableboy in her escape. So we'll likely get up to Ned's arrest.

 

Episode 9 will be Ned's execution. The name of the episode is Baelor- Ned was executed on the steps of the Great Sept, I believe called Baelor's Steps or something like that.

 

Episode 10 will be Dany. Fire and Blood- it'll be her attempt to revive Drogo, and the ensuing dragons. They will likely interweave the events leading up to the major events together though, so we may see Drogo being wounded in 8 or 9, etc.

 

I don't recall Jon doing much on the Wall in the first book. Does he actually leave and go beyond it at the end, or is that the start of book 2? Either way they can put that in season 2 if they have to, so we may not see much more Jon this season.

 

Well not entirely

 

 

Ned is arrested at the end of episode 7. I don't think you'll see much of him in episode 8. I think you're right about 9 and 10 though.

 

But I'm wondering where they're going to end Catelyn's and Robb's story because we know that the other Tully's aren't in the cast this season so they can't make it to Riverrun. Does that also mean they'll cut out the battle of the camps and whispering wood? I hope they at least have "The King in the North". But it might be a but weird if they proclaimed Robb a king before he'd actually done anything.

 

[Elend]

So I just watched episode 7.

 

Jesus Christ, best episode yet, in every single way. The first Littlefinger scene was pretty over the top in terms of sex but... wow, did it really provide backstory and in a pretty entertaining way. And not just due to the sex.

 

Khal Drogo finally got some dialogue in this and I realize Jason Momoa was the perfect pick for his character.

 

Final scene=epic. That is all.

 

ETA:

 

On when I think Jon Snow's plot will end this season

 

 

I'm guessing Fire and Blood. It makes sense, considering how he deals with the two wights in the camp. I'd forgotten about it until they showed Ghost with the hand. It'll work well in the final episode, considering the series opener also featured wights and an Other.