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Verin's Letters

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Verin made a mistake, she overestimated Mat's curiosity and underestimated his fear of being tied in Aes Sedai strings. She should have phrased it "Please open this letter in 10 days, you do not have to do what it says unless you wish to do so." Mat would have opened it then, her mistake was binding him to the letter, rather than simply saying it was important.

 

Well, Bob, he had good reason to believe it was. Aes Sedai have been trying to control the 3 of them from the start, the fact she was being forced to do so by his luck wouldn't have changed anything from his point of view, he hates his Ta'veren effect sometimes as well.

 

If Verin accompanies the letter with a throwaway line like, "Please open this letter in 10 days, you do not have to do what it says unless you wish to do so." that just insures that it won't get read. If she doesn't attach dire importance to it, why is Mat supposed to?

 

And, no, no Aes Sedai has ever just messed with him. They are at least responsible enough to only pressure him for things that honestly are important.

 

Mat has an important role to play. The Aes Sedai are insistent that he play it. Mat just wants to be Peter Pan and fly back to Never-Never-Land.

 

That childishness, far more than anything Elayne or anyone else has done, gets people killed needlessly.

 

Mat and Verin actually went back and forth about the conditions of the letter being opened. Obviously it would be read (it's a freaking part of the story, story arc can make him read it. Your argument here is nothing short of silly). And when they were going back and forth, Verin could have said, "Ok, you don't have to do what it says if you don't want to but you must read it." There, problem solved!

 

Mat's part time job is seems to be rescuing AS and all he get's in return is bullying. So yeah, I understand why he kind of sick and tired of them and does not want anything to do with them.

Edited by NetSlider

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Mat has undergone a verbal contract with Verin.

He will get service A if he either commits to B or C in return. Option B entails that he agrees to a second unknown contract, option C entails that he wait no less than 30 days at location X.

His decision to follow option C is not childish at all. It is the responsible and safe option. His personal opinions about Aes Sedai, women etc are secondary to this.

Edited by Haran

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Mat and Verin actually went back and forth about the conditions of the letter being opened. Obviously it would be read (it's a freaking part of the story, story arc can make him read it. Your argument here is nothing short of silly). And when they were going back and forth, Verin could have said, "Ok, you don't have to do what it says if you don't want to but you must read it." There, problem solved!

 

Mat's part time job is seems to be rescuing AS and all he get's in return is bullying. So yeah, I understand why he kind of sick and tired of them and does not want anything to do with them.

 

Rationalize all you want. The truth is Mat behaves like a child here. Waaaaah! It's not fair! Waaaaaah! They're bullies! Waaaaah! They can't make me! Waaaah!

 

C'mon Mat, Cowboy up. Other people's bad behaviour does NOT excuse your own.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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Mat has an important role to play. The Aes Sedai are insistent that he play it. Mat just wants to be Peter Pan and fly back to Never-Never-Land.

 

 

If by "fly back to Never-Never-Land," you mean "fulfill his promise to Thom to help him go rescue Moiraine, fulfill his obligation to Aludra and all the people whose lives will be saved by having the Dragons made, and do it all while keeping the soldiers under his command relatively safe," then I guess you could say that that's all Mat wants.

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Mat has an important role to play. The Aes Sedai are insistent that he play it. Mat just wants to be Peter Pan and fly back to Never-Never-Land.

 

 

If by "fly back to Never-Never-Land," you mean "fulfill his promise to Thom to help him go rescue Moiraine, fulfill his obligation to Aludra and all the people whose lives will be saved by having the Dragons made, and do it all while keeping the soldiers under his command relatively safe," then I guess you could say that that's all Mat wants.

 

Opening the letter precludes none of those scenarios. In fact, it enhances all of them.

 

With the Waygate destroyed, there is no invasion, no threat to Aludra's dragons, and no immediate threat to the people of Caemlyn from fire or Trolloc. Opening the letter wouldn't even tke any time away from rescuing Moiraine. He already has contact with Birgitte and Elayne, he simply needs to tell them and make Talmanes and his half of the Band available to do the heavy lifting while he, Thom, and Noal gate to the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Mat blew it. By being the south half of a northbound horse yet again.

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Mat has an important role to play. The Aes Sedai are insistent that he play it. Mat just wants to be Peter Pan and fly back to Never-Never-Land.

 

 

If by "fly back to Never-Never-Land," you mean "fulfill his promise to Thom to help him go rescue Moiraine, fulfill his obligation to Aludra and all the people whose lives will be saved by having the Dragons made, and do it all while keeping the soldiers under his command relatively safe," then I guess you could say that that's all Mat wants.

 

Opening the letter precludes none of those scenarios. In fact, it enhances all of them.

 

With the Waygate destroyed, there is no invasion, no threat to Aludra's dragons, and no immediate threat to the people of Caemlyn from fire or Trolloc. Opening the letter wouldn't even tke any time away from rescuing Moiraine. He already has contact with Birgitte and Elayne, he simply needs to tell them and make Talmanes and his half of the Band available to do the heavy lifting while he, Thom, and Noal gate to the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Mat blew it. By being the south half of a northbound horse yet again.

 

Honestly, at this point I'm kind of getting really upset. You keep on saying that it's Mat's fault and making these crazy connections and justifications why. Yet you say I'm the one who rationalizing. R you being serious or are you just massing around? I just really can't see how someone can blame Mat and truly believe it. So, are you for real or are you just pulling our thumbs?

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If by "fly back to Never-Never-Land," you mean "fulfill his promise to Thom to help him go rescue Moiraine, fulfill his obligation to Aludra and all the people whose lives will be saved by having the Dragons made, and do it all while keeping the soldiers under his command relatively safe," then I guess you could say that that's all Mat wants.

 

Opening the letter precludes none of those scenarios. In fact, it enhances all of them.

 

With the Waygate destroyed, there is no invasion, no threat to Aludra's dragons, and no immediate threat to the people of Caemlyn from fire or Trolloc. Opening the letter wouldn't even tke any time away from rescuing Moiraine. He already has contact with Birgitte and Elayne, he simply needs to tell them and make Talmanes and his half of the Band available to do the heavy lifting while he, Thom, and Noal gate to the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Yeah, if only Mat could have magically known beforehand that obeying the letter would only take five minutes of his time and wouldn't conflict with any of his other responsibilities, it would have worked out great. Too bad he can't Foretell, and had no indication of how much trouble the letter would cause him beyond Verin's weird coyness about it.

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Mat knew the letter was important, Verin made the mistake of thinking she could prod him into reading it when that was exactly what she should not have done. Mat would have opened the letter when she asked if it was noncommittal. And he would have done what the letter said anyway, since it was clearly needed. The problem is that Verin underestimated just how sick of Aes Sedai meddling Mat was.

 

Mat was perfectly adult in this situation, in his shoes I would likely have done the same thing; being wrapped in yet another layer of strings just isn't fun.

Edited by Torn Shadow

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Yes, NetSlider, I'm totally serious.

 

Mat blew it.

 

Verin led the horse to water and he refused to drink.

 

 

 

Yeah, if only Mat could have magically known beforehand that obeying the letter would only take five minutes of his time and wouldn't conflict with any of his other responsibilities, it would have worked out great. Too bad he can't Foretell, and had no indication of how much trouble the letter would cause him beyond Verin's weird coyness about it.

 

Conversely, you expect Verin to have known the SUPER SECRET MAGIC INCANTATION that would insure that Mat opened the letter. All she could do is give him the letter in a timely fashion ( which she did ) impress upon him that she'd gone to considerable pains to do so ( she did ), tell him that it was vital he do what the letter instructed if she did not return within 10 days ( she did that, too ), and trust him to understand that she didn't do things like that for giggles ( which sadly he was not mature enough to do ).

 

Mat had the vital information in his hands. He and he alone refused to look at it. Nobody is responsible for that refusal but him.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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Bob, I have say the following and I'm done with this discussion.

 

I agree on a lot of things you say (thought usually not completely) but when it comes to this point, I can't help but feel like you trying to prove unprovable and while you know you're wrong you've invested too much into it. I understand, I've been there before myself. But this being said, I think (without any sarcasm or smartassery) that you are being a complete idiot in defending your opinion. You can have your opinion, but I would think that anyone with any sense of logic would already see how freaking retarded your stance and points are.

 

I know it came out rough but I don't apologize for it as you seem to live in some f*&cking twisted reality where no mater what is said you will still run head first into the same f*&cking wall.

 

I'm done with arguing with you as there is obviously nothing else to be said. I'm looking forward to other conversations on other topics but at this point I'm done with Mat and Verin's letter discussion. It does not mean I conseed to you and your point, it just means I simply refuse to have a converstaion on a subject where logic and rationale left the room long time ago. You know, I never thought to say this about topic like this one (maybe religion and such) but hey, it seems I still have a lot to learn.

 

I still like and don't take this personally.

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Yeah, if only Mat could have magically known beforehand that obeying the letter would only take five minutes of his time and wouldn't conflict with any of his other responsibilities, it would have worked out great. Too bad he can't Foretell, and had no indication of how much trouble the letter would cause him beyond Verin's weird coyness about it.

 

Conversely, you expect Verin to have known the SUPER SECRET MAGIC INCANTATION that would insure that Mat opened the letter. All she could do is give him the letter in a timely fashion ( which she did ) impress upon him that she'd gone to considerable pains to do so ( she did ), tell him that it was vital he do what the letter instructed if she did not return within 10 days ( she did that, too ), and trust him to understand that she didn't do things like that for giggles ( which sadly he was not mature enough to do ).

 

Mat had the vital information in his hands. He and he alone refused to look at it. Nobody is responsible for that refusal but him.

 

Why does anyone have to be "responsible"? Verin made the best choices she saw to make, given the limitations of her oaths and the fact that the Pattern was manipulating her for some unknown reason into relying on Mat; and Mat made the best choices he saw to make, given his experiences with Aes Sedai and his numerous other commitments. The result was that it didn't work out. Is the blame game really necessary?

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Can someone tell me why Verin didn't just tell him to open the letter after a couple of days.. Wouldn't that have made way more sense?

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Yes, NetSlider, I'm totally serious.

 

Mat blew it.

 

Verin led the horse to water and he refused to drink.

 

 

 

Yeah, if only Mat could have magically known beforehand that obeying the letter would only take five minutes of his time and wouldn't conflict with any of his other responsibilities, it would have worked out great. Too bad he can't Foretell, and had no indication of how much trouble the letter would cause him beyond Verin's weird coyness about it.

 

Conversely, you expect Verin to have known the SUPER SECRET MAGIC INCANTATION that would insure that Mat opened the letter. All she could do is give him the letter in a timely fashion ( which she did ) impress upon him that she'd gone to considerable pains to do so ( she did ), tell him that it was vital he do what the letter instructed if she did not return within 10 days ( she did that, too ), and trust him to understand that she didn't do things like that for giggles ( which sadly he was not mature enough to do ).

 

Mat had the vital information in his hands. He and he alone refused to look at it. Nobody is responsible for that refusal but him.

 

 

Verin: "Hey Mat, there's a shadowspawn army headed to Caemlyn through the waygates."

 

Mat: "How do you know anything about a shadowspawn army, and aren't the waygates sealed up?"

 

Verin: "How I know isn't important, and no, the waygates aren't sealed up. [instructions from letter]"

 

the waygate gets sealed up, Caemlyn is saved, Moiraine gets saved sooner...all if verin wasn't so mysterious about it.

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Yeah, if only Mat could have magically known beforehand that obeying the letter would only take five minutes of his time and wouldn't conflict with any of his other responsibilities, it would have worked out great. Too bad he can't Foretell, and had no indication of how much trouble the letter would cause him beyond Verin's weird coyness about it.

 

Conversely, you expect Verin to have known the SUPER SECRET MAGIC INCANTATION that would insure that Mat opened the letter. All she could do is give him the letter in a timely fashion ( which she did ) impress upon him that she'd gone to considerable pains to do so ( she did ), tell him that it was vital he do what the letter instructed if she did not return within 10 days ( she did that, too ), and trust him to understand that she didn't do things like that for giggles ( which sadly he was not mature enough to do ).

 

Mat had the vital information in his hands. He and he alone refused to look at it. Nobody is responsible for that refusal but him.

 

Why does anyone have to be "responsible"? Verin made the best choices she saw to make, given the limitations of her oaths and the fact that the Pattern was manipulating her for some unknown reason into relying on Mat; and Mat made the best choices he saw to make, given his experiences with Aes Sedai and his numerous other commitments. The result was that it didn't work out. Is the blame game really necessary?

 

Truthfully, nobody does "need" to be responsible. If you go back a few pages you'll see a lynch mob forming to hang poor Verin's corpse for her supposed stupidity. I've just been trying to point out that she really wasn't the stupid one, Mat was.

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Personally, I thought that if she said "I have important information that I have put in this letter for safekeeping. I will take you to Caemlyn if you promise to open it after 3 days if I have no returned. Do what you want with the information, but just promise to open it", that would have worked fine.

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Personally, I thought that if she said "I have important information that I have put in this letter for safekeeping. I will take you to Caemlyn if you promise to open it after 3 days if I have no returned. Do what you want with the information, but just promise to open it", that would have worked fine.

 

It might have had a better chance of success. But, this is Mat and his paranoia about all things involving Aes Sedai we're talking about.

 

Truthfully, it wouldn't have mattered what she said. For reasons yet unclear, the plot requires that the letter not be opened and what certainly seems to be an attack to happen.

 

I object to that primarily because I want to like Mat, but the way he's still being written makes that impossible, just as it has been for the last twelve books. I can laugh at the humor, but I cannot like the character.

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To put things in perspective, we've now seen Whitecloaks accept healing. Mat's reaction to Aes Sedai and the One Power borders on psychosis.

 

-- dwn

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It's really surprising to see how few people believe events unfolded as she wanted them to, and how many want to blame verin or mat or talk about how badly she miscalculated. Verin has been one of the craftiest most calculating characters in the series and with a book to go how can everyone jump so quickly to their conclusions. Verin knew enough of Mat to know he wouldn't open the letter if she made him think he had no choice but to follow her instruction and also that it was some mysterious aes sedai plot. So it seems clear to me the whole time limit thing was imposed to have the band present for the invasion. Also, I don't believe she ever intended to return to stop it. As previously stated there was a lot of time b/w getting the band to Caemlyn and her meeting with Egwene. There are tons of possibilities as to why she wanted this attack to proceed and fail rather than stopped before it started and there is a whole book left to explain them. So until then quit bashing one of the coolest characters in the series...lol.

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Truthfully, nobody does "need" to be responsible. If you go back a few pages you'll see a lynch mob forming to hang poor Verin's corpse for her supposed stupidity. I've just been trying to point out that she really wasn't the stupid one, Mat was.

 

Both parties are at fault here. Neither are blameless victims, neither are full culpable. Verin was probably unnecessarily obtuse--she could've just said "Hey Mat, this letter has some important information in it. Will you open it in 5 days and do as you see fit with the information?"

 

Mat was being his stubborn self, with his irrational dislike of the Aes Sedai. He hates being tied up in their plots, but he's actually never been involved in their plots, and they saved his life when the Shadar Logoth dagger would've killed him and driven him insane. He complains bout Aes Sedai ingratitude, but I can't recall him ever thanking the Aes Sedai who saved his life.

 

He was being a bit of a spoiled child in this encounter, especially since Verin straight out told him that the task in the letter was not likely to be onerous to him. Rather than "obey" an Aes Sedai, he decided to cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

If I were to apportion blame I'd lay it at 60% Mat, 40% Verin, but that's just me.

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To put things in perspective, we've now seen Whitecloaks accept healing. Mat's reaction to Aes Sedai and the One Power borders on psychosis.

 

-- dwn

 

Exactly. Especially since they've never done him any wrong.

 

I object to that primarily because I want to like Mat, but the way he's still being written makes that impossible, just as it has been for the last twelve books. I can laugh at the humor, but I cannot like the character.

 

I like parts of Mat's character, and he's fun to read but I wouldn't want to hang out with him.

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She is Aes Sedai who are experts at getting around things. I am sure had she wanted to she could of warned Mat of the danger or let him know the importnace of the letter without breaking her DO oaths.

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It's really surprising to see how few people believe events unfolded as she wanted them to, and how many want to blame verin or mat or talk about how badly she miscalculated. Verin has been one of the craftiest most calculating characters in the series and with a book to go how can everyone jump so quickly to their conclusions. Verin knew enough of Mat to know he wouldn't open the letter if she made him think he had no choice but to follow her instruction and also that it was some mysterious aes sedai plot. So it seems clear to me the whole time limit thing was imposed to have the band present for the invasion. Also, I don't believe she ever intended to return to stop it. As previously stated there was a lot of time b/w getting the band to Caemlyn and her meeting with Egwene. There are tons of possibilities as to why she wanted this attack to proceed and fail rather than stopped before it started and there is a whole book left to explain them. So until then quit bashing one of the coolest characters in the series...lol.

 

 

Very possibly this.

 

People seem to think that because Verin wasn't Evil, that she suddenly wasn't lying in anything other than the bare minimum that we've been forced to see, and otherwise she was a paragon of virtue. Yet for over 70 years, probably for more than 100 years (I don't recall her age), her methodology, her habit, her instinct, has of necessity been to bend and twist anything she says or writes in order to get things done while bending 6 contradictory oaths in an attempt not to shatter any of them beyond repair.

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To put things in perspective, we've now seen Whitecloaks accept healing. Mat's reaction to Aes Sedai and the One Power borders on psychosis.

 

-- dwn

 

I agree. Mat is being childish about this and many other things as well. But I don’t see how this relates to the letter at all. They are two completely separate issues.

 

Verin and Mat made a bargain. Verin provided a service for which Mat had two payment options. Mat chose option 2.

 

It's really surprising to see how few people believe events unfolded as she wanted them to, and how many want to blame verin or mat or talk about how badly she miscalculated. Verin has been one of the craftiest most calculating characters in the series and with a book to go how can everyone jump so quickly to their conclusions. Verin knew enough of Mat to know he wouldn't open the letter if she made him think he had no choice but to follow her instruction and also that it was some mysterious aes sedai plot. So it seems clear to me the whole time limit thing was imposed to have the band present for the invasion. Also, I don't believe she ever intended to return to stop it. As previously stated there was a lot of time b/w getting the band to Caemlyn and her meeting with Egwene. There are tons of possibilities as to why she wanted this attack to proceed and fail rather than stopped before it started and there is a whole book left to explain them. So until then quit bashing one of the coolest characters in the series...lol.

 

 

Very possibly this.

 

People seem to think that because Verin wasn't Evil, that she suddenly wasn't lying in anything other than the bare minimum that we've been forced to see, and otherwise she was a paragon of virtue. Yet for over 70 years, probably for more than 100 years (I don't recall her age), her methodology, her habit, her instinct, has of necessity been to bend and twist anything she says or writes in order to get things done while bending 6 contradictory oaths in an attempt not to shatter any of them beyond repair.

 

Good point. Verin might have betrayed the Dark in the end. But she has been Black Ajah for years and years regardless of her ulterior motive. She has been bad, probably very bad. That probably changed her quite a bit over the years.

 

Verin ate babies to understand the black ajah, but that doesn't change the fact that Verin ate them babies in the first place. The end justifies the means? Is that it Verin? You ment well? Your brown at hearth?

 

No, Verin is no Hero. Verin didn’t take one for the team. Verin was a black sister who in the hour of her death betrayed the rest of the black ajah.

Edited by Haran

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It's really surprising to see how few people believe events unfolded as she wanted them to, and how many want to blame verin or mat or talk about how badly she miscalculated. Verin has been one of the craftiest most calculating characters in the series and with a book to go how can everyone jump so quickly to their conclusions. Verin knew enough of Mat to know he wouldn't open the letter if she made him think he had no choice but to follow her instruction and also that it was some mysterious aes sedai plot. So it seems clear to me the whole time limit thing was imposed to have the band present for the invasion. Also, I don't believe she ever intended to return to stop it. As previously stated there was a lot of time b/w getting the band to Caemlyn and her meeting with Egwene. There are tons of possibilities as to why she wanted this attack to proceed and fail rather than stopped before it started and there is a whole book left to explain them. So until then quit bashing one of the coolest characters in the series...lol.

 

Now that's a really interesting take on what Verin was really up to. The only problem I have with your hypothesis that she intended for him to never open the letter -- and it's not a big one -- is that in her letter she specifically stated that she expected Mat wouldn't be able to resist opening it more than a few days. Of course, she could have simply written that to "explain" herself if he did open it to begin with. Otherwise the time restrictions she made him agree to make sense, especially if she didn't know exactly when the attack was going to happen. She seemed to have been bargaining with him to keep him in Caemlyn as long as possible.

 

If Verin had wanted the Waygate sealed or destroyed to stop the attack, though, she should have never put the qualifier "do what the letter tells you to do" on it. Remember when Verin told Egwene she was wise for not trusting her because she was Black Ajah? Would she think Mat a fool at the same time for not trusting her? Does not compute. If she'd simply have said "Open this letter after x days and read its contents," instead of "these are instructions you are to follow" Mat would never have had to worry about delaying his trip to rescue Moiraine since he wouldn't have felt bound to actually do anything. At the very least she could have had a letter sent by carrier pigeon just before her death telling him he could open the letter if he was curious. It does seem like a very un-Verin lack of foresight.

 

I don't see how anyone could say Mat is to blame in the slightest. What did he do wrong? She gave him a choice to open the letter after 10 days or wait the full 30 and not open it. He did exactly what he gave his word to do -- and he told Verin flat out that he wasn't going to open the letter. It's not his fault if she didn't believe him.

 

I can't see any feasible explanation for why Verin would want the attack to happen -- at this point. But since Mat didn't rip the letter open by accident or leave it around for Olver to open earlier, it seems that the Pattern certainly didn't have any...intention...for lack of a better word...for Mat to know.

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