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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Verin's Letters

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Because of the maybe not go for Moiraine at all - by the same token, it could be maybe go for Moiraine a bit later than planned, or maybe go for Moiraine exactly when I otherwise would have done - possibly even a bit earlier, although that last is doubtful. It fails as the choice because it wasn't one or the other, the possibility of both always existed, he had nothing to say that was not still an option.

 

Mat himself said he doesn't dare to open the letter because it could have something like "Walk on your hands from Caemlyn to Tar Valon" or something like that. And he'd have to do it because he swore to do so.

 

So the safe thing to do is open the letter AFTER you're done with Moiraine. I, personally, think that the letter had more potential to delay or even prevent him from going to his trip to Moiraine rather than make him able to go sooner or in time.

 

I'd have done the same thing Mat did.

You can only open the letter after rescuing Moiraine if you wait until after the 30 days have expired before even leaving. So the chances are if anything in the letter was time sensitive, the time will have passed. Safe, but useless. Now, I consider Mat's refusal to find a way around his oath, to discover what was in the letter without agreeing to do what was in it, to be a moral failing. He should have done something like get Talmanes to open it. He thinks this would still oblige him to follow through, I accept that, but I still consider this a flaw on his part. What was actually in the letter would not have delayed him at all, but I accept there are any number of important things (walking on his hands anywhere was never likely to be the subject of the letter) that it could have asked him to do that would delay him. But delay is not cancellation, which was my point. Thus he helps Verin and Moiraine.

You find it to be a flaw in Mat that he feels bound by his oath, and bound by the intent rather than the word?

Since when did Mat become an Aes Sedai skirting the oath of speaking no lies - or are AS showing commendable behaviour when manipulating their words so as to technically speak the truth, while lieing by omission or misleading, knowing full well how what they say will be understood?

 

This part of Mats character is not a flaw, but commendable, he lives by his word, and he lives by the intent of his word, not just the technicalities - he refuses to cheat.

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The 'he always keeps his word" trait isn't a positive, it's a flaw. Sometimes people, even heroes have to break their word for the greater good.

 

 

In fact, it's rather similar to the "He always does what is right" trait exhibited by Galad that's so infuriating (and wrong).

 

I don't see it that way. Mat had no way of knowing that this actually was one of those times. The fact that Verin was an Aes Sedai made him doubt it, since he sees them as people who would try to improve their own position and prospects even one foot in the grave.

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Because of the maybe not go for Moiraine at all - by the same token, it could be maybe go for Moiraine a bit later than planned, or maybe go for Moiraine exactly when I otherwise would have done - possibly even a bit earlier, although that last is doubtful. It fails as the choice because it wasn't one or the other, the possibility of both always existed, he had nothing to say that was not still an option.

 

Mat himself said he doesn't dare to open the letter because it could have something like "Walk on your hands from Caemlyn to Tar Valon" or something like that. And he'd have to do it because he swore to do so.

 

So the safe thing to do is open the letter AFTER you're done with Moiraine. I, personally, think that the letter had more potential to delay or even prevent him from going to his trip to Moiraine rather than make him able to go sooner or in time.

 

I'd have done the same thing Mat did.

You can only open the letter after rescuing Moiraine if you wait until after the 30 days have expired before even leaving. So the chances are if anything in the letter was time sensitive, the time will have passed. Safe, but useless. Now, I consider Mat's refusal to find a way around his oath, to discover what was in the letter without agreeing to do what was in it, to be a moral failing. He should have done something like get Talmanes to open it. He thinks this would still oblige him to follow through, I accept that, but I still consider this a flaw on his part. What was actually in the letter would not have delayed him at all, but I accept there are any number of important things (walking on his hands anywhere was never likely to be the subject of the letter) that it could have asked him to do that would delay him. But delay is not cancellation, which was my point. Thus he helps Verin and Moiraine.

You find it to be a flaw in Mat that he feels bound by his oath, and bound by the intent rather than the word?

Since when did Mat become an Aes Sedai skirting the oath of speaking no lies - or are AS showing commendable behaviour when manipulating their words so as to technically speak the truth, while lieing by omission or misleading, knowing full well how what they say will be understood?

 

This part of Mats character is not a flaw, but commendable, he lives by his word, and he lives by the intent of his word, not just the technicalities - he refuses to cheat.

I find his absolutist stance of never breaking his word, ever, under any circumstances, to be a character flaw. Mat was given a letter and told it was important. He agreed to either open the letter and do as it said, or to not open the letter and wait thirty days. He made no effort to find out what was in the letter, how important it was, whether it would interfere with his plans to rescue Moiraine - all pretty important details. Therefore he was condemned to make diecisions in wilful ignorance. That is not commendable. Nor is it honourable. It is an immature and overly simplistic morality. If he had had someone else open the letter for him on the tenth day then all those people in Caemlyn would still be alive. Just about the only other person with such ability to stop that army attacking Caemlyn was whoever ordered it into the Ways to begin with. Mat is not an AS. Maybe he should take a few lessons.

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Verin did say "open the letter in 10 days and read it".

So no, it's not breaking her oath to GLoD.

 

She added "Then do what it tells you to".

That was the dealbreaker for Mat.

 

She also added "Otherwise wait 30 days"

Which is presumably to ensure he and shen al Calhar is around if he doesn;t read the letter.

That's where it doesn't make sense.

 

All she had to do was to leave it at "open the letter in 10 days and read it" and not say anything more.

 

I don't think verin said read it she said open the letter and do what it says. The only way to make sense out of verin's action is to believe that she was revealing shadows plans so the only way to circumvent DO's oaths is by acting the way she did.

 

Above, I've put exact quotes of exactly what Verin said. .

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Maybe she thought that she wasn't betraying him or anything just telling transferring a letter, it also may have been in her last hour.

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What would go to galad?

 

Might be something about Luc or about his relationship to Rand.

Edited by Theodril

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Verin's mistake was that she underestimated Mat's character, in two ways:

 

1. She assumed he would either break his word, or that his childish curiosity would overcome his obvious hesitation to blindly agree to her orders, and

2. She assumed that her orders for him to follow her instructions would somehow do what Mat's little conscience would not, knowing the danger of the Waygate. Which was both foolish and an underestimation on Verin's part.

 

It's not all that surprising that she underestimates him, though...she only knew him when he was under the influence of the dagger. She literally had not seen him at all since he woke up from being Healed.

 

In all honesty, we dont know if getting Moiraine before the battle is what will end up saving the day. Maybe she have info about secret tunnels, secret weaves, secret info from the 'finns, or something similar.

Maybe Rand seeing Moiraine alive will be such a relief for him that he go in Zen Overdrive mode or that he start to use Callandor with her and Nyn in circle there and then to sort it out.

People seem to assume that the correct way to do things was for Verin

Sure, from her point of view things did not go as planned, but with Lady Luck on Matt's side as ususal, maybe this was the way it was ment to happen.

 

On the other hand, do Verin know that Rand went around to put traps on each of the Waygates to kill all shadowspawn going through them after a little while? "So they dont see the piles of bodies" I believe the reason for the delay was. Did she know Moiraine would come back, the way we the readers and overthinkers knew about it?

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I was just thinking. Would it be a bad thing if Caemlyn fell? Then Rand could funnel the enormous army of Trollocs towards the Seanchan, and let them destroy each other. After that, The Seanchan will be much more agreeable.

 

I believe that the timeline could be about the Waygate, I thought Loial and another Ogier was shutting the Waygates down?

I like the thought of shadowspawn against Seanchan but the Dreadlords are going to give them proof of why all channellers should be leashed. Mind you what will they do with the Men?

On the otherhand for all we know it could be the Seanchan burning Caemlyn as it's close to Tar Valon, the scene only revealed the city burning. Tuon got Travelling from snivelling Elaida I can't believe she tried to bargain her release in exchange of other Aes Sedai?

The city was still having problems with arson even after Elayne secured the throne, so we're all in suspense as to what is really happening within.

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I actually believe that both Verin and Mattrim were acting very much in character during this story arc.

 

Matt does not trust most Aes Sedai, and the few he does trust he does not trust very far, often amazing himself when he realizes it happening. Matt has almost a phobia when it comes to the Aes Sedai, and any hint of manipulation by one of these women would cause him to go to extremes to insure his freedom, whether that was actually threatened or not

 

Verin has spent a long, long life playing both sides and speaking in riddles to protect herself. I don't think she could come right out and say anything clearly and has learned to manipulate to get the results she needs. Only at the end was she able to talk clearly, and then only to someone she respected and while poison was fairly rapidly killing her.

 

Both of these are perfectly in character, and I think the disappointment many feel in the contents of the letter are due more to our vivid imaginations feeding off each other than in any lack in the message itself. It told of a dire threat that was well within the power of Matt and the Band to handle, but he had no knowledge of it and no desire to tie himself any closer to the tower and their manipulations and maneuverings. Even his dealings with Elayne are tinged by his distrust, and only over riden by his need to have Aludra's Dragons built

 

As far as Olver, he is acting as any young man driven by revenge. Viewed as a child of 10 his actions may be seen as extreme, but viewed through the lens of a young man that has seen his country invaded, his father killed and had his mother die, it is understandable. Extreme conditions cause people to mature faster than those who do not live through what this child has. Though he may be 10+ in physical age, his maturity in many areas is probably closer to a mid teenager. He has been raised in an environment of hard men, and has seen many he knows die, and has taken their simple morality to heart. If someone hurts you, hurt them back harder.

 

As always your mileage may vary but that is how I see it

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