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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Ferdawoon

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  1. I was under the impression that Elan was the most "dangerous" Forsaken, and the most trusted, because he did not really do it for profit or gain. He think he had concluded that as time pass, the number of times the Dark One try to break free reach infinity and thus the odds that one of the times the Dragon (or whoever is fighting) will fail also reach infinity. It was basicly just a matter of time until the Dark One won. Why prolong the fighting, the suffering and the agony? Checking this against the WoT-wiki I find this almost word for word: wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ishamael "He was unique among the Forsaken as being the only member of the group who did not join for the promise of power or immortality (at least not per se), but because his logic concluded that the Dark One must inevitably win against the Dragon, and therefore the only path was to join him and rule for a time."
  2. Honestly, I have seen much worse dancing around in these forums with ideas that seem to be taken seriously.. Where words and quotes are really picked apart to its smallest threads to try to get ideas across. Especially so when it comes to the prophecy-discussions.. You linked a quote where Jordan say the Creator is completly off the chart as far as influencing events goes. I linked one where it was hinted that maybe the Creator is not completly abascent. Then you link a few qoutes about how the Creator will not help Randland win the Last Battle in an attempt by RJ to show that he wont just be using the Creator as a sudden "solve every problem"-thing. I dont see how that is dancing around to make things fit. Also, no point asking Brandon I guess: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/01/brandon-sandersons-wheel-of-time-answers-from-torchat So I guess unless it will be in the encyclopedia or some spin-off story, we will never really know.
  3. The question is: Why is the Creator ignoring Randland? RJ reply with "Who say the creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind?" So, there is no reason to believe that the creator is not in the equation at all. Completly abscent or just on vacation. RJ have said that they can expect no help from the Creator, that Rand cannot tap into the powers of the Creator in (my ears similar to how the Forsaken tap into the True Power) and things like that..However, To me that sound like the Creator have left the fight to mankind: If you want to persist, you need to fight for it. You need to understand why it is worth it to keep fighting, maybe even why the Creator made the world in the first place! It dont mean that after the fight, the Creator won't step in to give a prize to his/her/its champion, the transmogrification of the soul into a new body. Except there are many other quotes aside from the one you give where RJ makes clear the Creator takes no part. The Creator is not influencing anything. The Creator would not step in to help defend the world. The Creator would not be next to Rand when he battled his emotions. The Creator would not make a huge "Shadowspawn-homing missile" like the one Rand did in Tear to help the good guys win. The Creator would not suddenly give Rand access to his/her own version of the True Power. Reading your quotes from the top of the page, nothing of what I just said contradict that. This is the only thing that could be read as the Creator not even being close to the Pattern (as much as someone can be far away from anything in a void or a plane of non-existence). Like how the constructionworker build a house and once it is finished never set a foot inside it again. But that could be countered with my quote where Jordan tease that the Creator might peek in through the windows of his house to check how things are doing inside. This is as I said. No one is going to step in to help. The Creator might be curious about how things are going, but no help will come. No help to fix what they did wrong when the borde the whole. They have now fixed what they did wrong, the Dark one is out of the pattern again and the bore is mended ("forged anew"), and the Creator did not help to make that happen in any way. Again, the Creator will not participate in the fight in any way. No divine favors. "You fekked things up, you sort it. I can always just creat a new world.". Jordan also say specificly: "in defeating the Dark one".. Helping Rand at the end, is not really participating or affecting the outcome. The Last Battle has been won (for now) and the world need to recover. In no way did the Creator affect the outcome of the Last Battle and in no way is the Creator helping to rebuild the world or even help stabilize the pattern (all the dark fissure of void on the ground could be mended by the Creator but according to Sanderson: "All of the cracks from balefire use are still present in the world, but will eventually heal themselves." ). The Creator will not be affecting anything, or admitting any imperfections, if he/she would like to congratulate his/her champion. In analogy with the christian theology (probably other myths as well but that's the one I'm familiar with) Rand "died on the cross" to save mankind and all that. Now he has been allowed to enter a new body in which he can live out a life in peace and harmony, being one with the world. God, the Creator, helped to make that transition happen. Unless we accept that Rand had the power to soul-swap all by himself or that the Balefire-crossing somehow enabled a link to let it happen automaticly or subcounciously for some reason. Either Rand switched bodies on his won somehow, or Nakomi was the one to do it with a weave, ter'angreal or using a similar force as we see Rand use to light his pipe. Either that, or the Creator did it. We only know one force that can move souls if done close to the moment of death and that is the Dark One. I doubt the Dark One, just being sealed out of the Pattern, could still have that kind of influence over the world. We do know that Nyms were made alive by borrowing a soul from the "reservoir" of souls awaiting rebirth so at least people knew how to "borrow" souls. Or, simply, as is mentioned in the TOR-chat summary: "Regarding Nakomi: “With all of the homages to global myths/legends in WoT is it fair to consider Nakomi as a Wandering Jew/Jenn?” Brandon’s response: “That’s a very clever question that nobody has yet asked me. I’m not going to say more, however.” Or, Nakomi could just be a correction mechanism of the Pattern, ment to try to avoid the bad stuff going to happen to the Aiel. Either way, I still argue that the Creator is not "never ever looking in to see what is going on", but rather taking a stroll through the lands from time to time, as a gardener would go in to see how things are progressing. Not to help the plants grow or take care of them, but just to admire how things are progressing.
  4. The question is: Why is the Creator ignoring Randland? RJ reply with "Who say the creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind?" So, there is no reason to believe that the creator is not in the equation at all. Completly abscent or just on vacation. RJ have said that they can expect no help from the Creator, that Rand cannot tap into the powers of the Creator in (my ears similar to how the Forsaken tap into the True Power) and things like that..However, To me that sound like the Creator have left the fight to mankind: If you want to persist, you need to fight for it. You need to understand why it is worth it to keep fighting, maybe even why the Creator made the world in the first place! It dont mean that after the fight, the Creator won't step in to give a prize to his/her/its champion, the transmogrification of the soul into a new body.
  5. As you quote yourself, and as people love to mention that the Big White Book is seen as from the PoV of a Randland person, he do say "That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul.". The key words being "It is the belief of the world". Just as everyone knew that stilling / gentling could not be healed. We also get a hint from Berelain that think being burned out should also be possible to heal somehow.. Notice how he do not actually say "this is how it works". He say "This is how people in my world think it works." Also, the last quote with the name of the female hero forgotten could very well be Nakomi.
  6. (my highlighting) Well, we know what happened to the boat Nynaeve was in when she gave up on life and her block regarding channeling vanished. Someone Balefired. The oarsmen were balefired, meaning Nynaeve found herself back out on the water again. Also, the boat was already sinking. I admit to not remembering details enough to say something definitive. However I also remember this question to Brandon, which towards the end mention my example with Nynaeve. Basicly, the balefire through the boat made it so that the hole had been in the boat for a while, meaning that instead of starting to sink at current time, it had been sinking for a minute or two and now that effect caught up with the current time, meaning the boat was halfway to the bottom by then.
  7. This is his early work, before he turn to the Shadow!
  8. I knew I had seen it somewhere: There is also this, to a lesser extent I remember seeing somewhere that he say that each age is similar to the same age the previous turning, in the same way that two tapestries can look the same at a glance, and at a distance, but once you get closer you see differences. Not sure if this mean that something as significant as which side of the One Power that is tainted is too great of a change or not. Remember that men cannot link without women, for example, which could cause issues. There is also this to explain why it was that the male half was the corrupte one in this turning.
  9. I was reviewing the scene of Rand exploring his ancestor's memories of the breaking and the scene where Callandor is observed the Aes Sedai are speaking of two men who will come to them the next day, it is obvious that these are two "Who are newly raised and thus less prone to the madness than the others" are all a part of the party that created the Eye as LTT's banner was also spread across and falling off the table while Callandor lay atop it. I am wondering if it wasn't just concentrated Saidin, but Saidin intertwined with Saidar. The women Aes Sedai all died from the taint as they used themselves as filters for the taint to create that pool of the One Power. I am wondering if the quest for finding a new power source that both could use that led to the bore being drilled eventually led them to discover some way of working the link to where not only was Saidin preserved for the Last Battle, but somehow made more potent with Saidair in it as well. We see the healing of the Forsaken drawing on it, and the power doesn't really do that. Rand smote an entire army of trollocs in Tarwin's Gap, traveled, and did all kinds of other things with it. It was and likely is the largest and most powerful well known to exist. Take into account that we have Ashamen and Rand who have felt Saidar, and women who through linking can feel Saidin and how it is so contrasting to the power that they know. Surely the Aes Sedai were able to figure out how to blend the power of both male and female halves to create a whole and true One Power that is equal in strength to the DO's own True Power. What else could possibly seal the bore if not both the male and female half, which is why the taint happened and the patch wasn't effective. When it is done correctly, tens if not hundreds of thousands of years will pass and the DO will be forgotten of, soldiering will be forgotten of, and swords will be a game where no one knows its origin. With both the Chodan Kal destroyed, Rand has Callandor, but the women have...what, Vora's Sa'angreal? It just isn't equal. Nimbus of power, blasting Raken out of the sky for a few hours, snapping open A'dam it's great and all powerful, but pales beside Callandor. Saidin and Saidar can Never be mixed. That is one of the fundamental parts of the One Power. We see how Rand use a conduit of Saidar to funnel Saidin into Shadar Logoth, and that way cleanse the Taint. if there was any way that the two halves could have mixed, that would have been a nightmare. Taint slipping over to the female half of the Power instead of into Shadar Logoth? it is also said many times that the One Power is Saidin and Saidar. Working together but at the same time also locked in a constant struggle. I believe you are right in that they used themselves as filters to cleanse the taint from the Saidin they put into The Eye, but in no way could they merge the powers. it is said that men and women working together could accomplish great feats that could not be done with only one half of the power, but that is when in a link. Not by actually mixing the powers. But maybe I just missunderstood your statement. Also, the Forsaken (Aginor?) drawing upon The Eye did not regenerate due to The Eye, but due to the True Power from the Dark one. Dont have the link to the interview-Database here atm but pretty sure there is RJ talking about it somewhere in there. He also mention, at the same time, that the fact that Rand channel Light and Power during that episode is important. So maybe the Well had another effect on Rand?
  10. Part of me want to say: Successful troll is successful.. Anyway, to the topic. As have been said, the Pattern, nor the Wheel, are not sentient. RJ have said that the Ages are not complete copies each time. That the tapestries of the same age over many cycles might look the same from afar but if you get closer you see a lot of differences. Maybe the next time around it will be the women who go mad and not the men? The general idea is there, the painting is made with a very crude brush. It's a bit like those childrens coloring books. The pattern have a basic outline of how the tapestry should look, but it might get the colors all wrong, Like the Pattern have been watching too many Picasso paintings, it know the parts a human have, but not really got the grasp of how they all fit together. It is like a CAD-machine with just the general shape programmed. All the details are left out. As long as the outer edges are not affected, or seriously going to be affected, the Pattern have no reason to react. It is like a bacteria. Once the body sense something is wrong, events are set in motion to try to prevent (further) damage and try to isolate and destroy the problem. The action by the body is in proportion to the danger percieved. Minor danger might mean no action at all while an aggressive virus might cause the body to launch everything it have. As long as the bacteria work within the rules of the body and dont make too much of a fuss, maybe even working in symbiosis towards a common goal (bacteria get nutrients while the body get something that the bacteria can produce, such as vitamins) then no action is taken. Yes, some events are pre-destinied. There is also a balance. Always a balance. If there is Creation there is Destruction. If there is Good there must be Bad. If there is Light, there must be Dark. If there is Yin, there must be Yang. If there is Saidin, there must be Saidar. If there is the Creator, there must be the Dark One. The pattern try to uphold the balance. Some events in the Pattern may tilt that balance, such as the Dark One suddenly getting more influence, and so the Pattern add more influential threads to try to get everything back on track. Those threads may still get cut off in advance, or end up making the whole thing even worse, so the Pattern might try to make those important threads have less of an effect (remove their ta'vereness) and grant it to another thread instead. It is like driving a car with auto-pilot or a GPS. The car just goes straight ahead and follow the road. It might sway back and forth a bit, but it still stay on the road. Sometimes a gentle nudge is required to stay on track but sometimes the road might end in a cliff and more drastic measures are required. The algorithms in the autopilot then fire off some extra events to prevent you from falling down the hole. You are still free to keep the road on track as ususal, but with dire consequences. The autopilot might notice something a long time in advance and nudge you to take another way but you say "Meeeh, this looks perfectly safe!" and 5 minutes later you get stuck in a traffic jam, or fall down that cliff. Ta'vereness is a bit like playing war games. You can play out your big tank, and it might seem invincible and it might seem like you are sure to win. But if it get overrun, or if it gets ambushed, it is gone. Then you are back to building a new supertank, but it might all be too late and the war is lost.
  11. Well, seeing this quote: Rand channel Power and Light during the Eye of the World event, and he do the same during Maradon after his epiphany. When he return after Maradon he say that he was exhausted and that he was too close to an actual confrontation. Basicly, he was fighting as the Champion of Light against the forces of evil. if he fought with Light during the Eye event as well, he was fighting as the champion of Light as well. he was just not aware of it. This lead me to two scenarios: 1) Could we assume that the Dark One don't really get involved personally but rather let hit Nae'blis do all the dirty work (bubbles of evil etc are just indirect actions from the Dark one, induced by him getting closer and closer to the world and not him saying "Here I wasnt something bad to happen".) then that would mean that Aginor was not the Chosen by the Dark one, ishy was the Nae'blis quite a few times in the past if I understand things right. The fight would be between ishy and Rand and that Aginor was on his own here. That was not ment to be THE fight. Basicly, it was the Dark one saying that he would take no part in that fight as it was not ment to be the Last Battle. 2) That Rand was not yet the chosen by the Light. He had not yet had his epiphany. Thus, the fight between Light and Dark was not with Rand as the Chosen Champion of the Light. he had just got a freebie-well with Light-power. I made a post a while back considering the dualities of the Powers and pondering if there was a Dark one Power (True Power) as the far Evil on the scale, a Creator power (light-power) and the One Power as a mix in the middle. I was shown a quote tho that there was no such connection between Rand and the Creator. He could not draw power from the Creator the way the Forsaken can draw True Power from the Dark One. We have also seen quotes here in the thread where RJ have said something along the lines of "What makes you think the Creator takes no interest in what happens to humanity?". Basicly, it was the Creator saying that Rand is on his own, should he become the Champion (and not turn Dark), and that the fight is for humans to settle.
  12. I'm sorry, but this is inane. If a certain age is called The Third Age, and the subsequent age is called the Fourth Age, then guess what - they are numbered. That's what the numerals 3 and 4 stand for. Numbering. As to whether or not the numbering is relative or absolute... who cares? That's not the point. Except the naming scheme is arbitrary. That was my point. There is no beginning nor ending to the turnings of the Wheel of Time. The First Age didn't start with the creation of the universe. The Seventh Age doesn't end with the end of the universe. It's simply what some people in the universe call it for whatever reason. The "Fourth Age" isn't the fourth age in the cycle, there is no first or second or third or what-have-you Age in the cycle. Any starting point is arbitrary. It's simply what people call it. Except that there are absolutely no religious practices or authorities anywhere in the WoT universe, not even the slightest shred. The people just take it for a fact that the Creator, the Wheel of Time, the Pattern, and the Third Age exist, despite lacking any evidence or documentation, or social/political mechanisms enforcing this point of view. They doubt the existence of Shadowspawn and the Dark One - sometimes - but not other concepts with no presence in anyone's life. Selective skepticism? They certainly do have religious and spiritual beliefs. There's just no organized prayer or worship. These beliefs are part of their culture, and was passed down because it's important to people. Family's aren't going to remember all history, and what didn't get incorporated into the religion ultimately will be lost more quickly to the non-scholars, but some things get integrated into those religious beliefs. They don't study this from history books. The people during the Breaking passed it down to their children, who pass it down to theirs, who pass it down to theirs... It's not too complicated. They don't need a holy book to pass these things down. Ever hear of oral traditions? http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=183#7 Paraphrasing a part of that interview:
  13. We don't know enough about the Warder Rage when the warder has four bond holders. I think it would be interesting to see wha happens if she is killed. Since his other three bond holders were done in secret (was it made public?), I would like to see Alanna killed and the killer expect the warder rage only to have calm Rand there. Well, in a way we do. Moiraine made arrangements to transfer her bond with Lan to (Was it Myrelle?). Lan is still a bit edgy if I recall correctly (ages since I read it so can get this wrong) but he is not on a Warder-rampage. Is this because the bond was not broken, just transfered, or maybe because it is just the maintaining of the bond that keep them from going berserk? That who they are bonded to is not that important, as long as a bond is maintained. I think Rand is the only example we have of a warder with multiple Aes Sedai though. We see Aes Sedai with more than one warder, but never the other way around. However, seeing how Alanna slipped into a coma when the three girls bonded Rand, it is understandable if it dont happen very often =P
  14. "Father of lies", as they call him.. ishy / Moridin is the only real brainiac here. He argued (think this was from the BWB, but might have been from the wiki or another fansite) that sooner or later the Dark One would win. As time goes towards infinity, the chance / risk that the Dark One will win also go towards infinity. It was only really a matter of time. So he reason, why not let it end now, why go through all the struggle? He had the kind of thoughts that Rand had before Veins of Gold.
  15. Also, Aginor (as an example) was a brilliant scientist, working with advanced gene modifications and works on the very foundation of the genetic level. That don't mean that he knew how a shocklance worked, or even how to make ter'angreals or heal difficult ailments of the body. Semirhage is the healer of the Forsaken, not Aginor, even though his knowledge of genetics, anatomy and how the body work would indicate that he know a fair bit about biology and anatomy. It is just not the right kind of knowledge to be a good healer. Something that happen a lot ijn the Real WOrld is when someone who is a professor in something turn to the media about a topic he is NOT educated in.. Had a professor of mathematics who was interviewd about matters of sociology, medicin and other areas, as if his title alone made him all-knowing about everything.
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