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Verin's Letters

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who delivered Galad his letter? he didn't get it from Verin. i assume that would be a PoV we would see...

 

I think the reason why Verin worded her request the way she did was because ta'veren actually means "how to justify dramatic plot twists"

 

It's not DRAMATIC for Elayne to close the waygate. It is dramatic for caemlyn to burn and the secrets of gunpowder to nearly be stolen.

They're in Andor, there are lots of people coming through a Gate. No telling who delivered it.

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who delivered Galad his letter? he didn't get it from Verin. i assume that would be a PoV we would see...

 

I think the reason why Verin worded her request the way she did was because ta'veren actually means "how to justify dramatic plot twists"

 

It's not DRAMATIC for Elayne to close the waygate. It is dramatic for caemlyn to burn and the secrets of gunpowder to nearly be stolen.

 

Ayup. It's just not good organic drama. It's that cheap imported drama, laced with asbestos and other cancer causing impurities.

 

If Caemyln has to burn and if getting it to do so has to be this labored and nonsensically forced then the Last Battle is gonna get really ugly in a lot of ways.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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At first I too thought it was just a foolish misunderstanding of the character of Mat but since Verin knew she was gonna be dying soon. But I come to realize it seems she absolutely calculated to perfection all variables to keep her safe from betraying her dark oaths before dying. She knew he was stubborn....a product of his Two Rivers upbringing and Manetheren blood which is notoriously stubborn stock. She did however miscalculate how long he would wait. But her having him in position and knowing he would know how to retake Caemlyn better than anyone else should he wait too long was pretty well thought out as a just in case contingency plan.

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Did Perrin's Asha'man go with him, or did he wait with the Band? If it comes down to Mat going to the Field of Merrilor and being sent to Caemlyn news will reach that gigantic army on the field that Caemlyn is being overrun and Birgitte will turn to Elayne and say "I told you so." Elayne's never going to live this one down.

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Did Perrin's Asha'man go with him, or did he wait with the Band? If it comes down to Mat going to the Field of Merrilor and being sent to Caemlyn news will reach that gigantic army on the field that Caemlyn is being overrun and Birgitte will turn to Elayne and say "I told you so." Elayne's never going to live this one down.

Mat wants a ride back to Caemlyn - he specifically told Perrin that he would return to Caemlyn, before he Gated to ToG.

It doesn't matter where Grady is, so long as he opens a Gate at noon near ToG. He can give Mat a Gate back to anywhere except the BT.

We're also assuming that Mat comes out in time to help with the Caemlyn attack - the last time he was an hour in the Finn realm, he came out nine days later.

The only picture we have post-ToG is Mat seeing Rand eating in Min's company. That could be anywhere.

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That's true, but I meant if the asha'man went with Perrin to the field then when he opens the gateway for Mat to step through Mat will step through into the field as well. After that the Caemlyn gate would be a direct contact between the massive good guy army and the trolloc invasion.

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According to the timelines I've seen, Verin met Mat almost a month before she met with Egwene in TGS. She made Mat promise to wait at least 10 days before opening it.

 

How come then she says in the letter "If you are reading this, then I am dead"? She must've been absolutely convinced she'd be dead or released from her oath not to reveal the DO's plans in 10 days when she gave Mat the letter, right? Otherwise the dark oaths wouldn't have allowed her to do it.

 

 

Those timelines are wrong, as soon as she dropped off Mat she went to the WT and met Egwene, perhaps a few hours after Mat finished arriving. This is rather clear from her "I expect to return in one day..." The only reason she would not have returned is because she was dead.

 

Either way we have not seen the last of Verin, I'm with the group that suspects she got Hero status for what she did, it seems to fit Hawkwing's description of what one must do rather well.

Edited by Torn Shadow

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According to the timelines I've seen, Verin met Mat almost a month before she met with Egwene in TGS. She made Mat promise to wait at least 10 days before opening it.

 

How come then she says in the letter "If you are reading this, then I am dead"? She must've been absolutely convinced she'd be dead or released from her oath not to reveal the DO's plans in 10 days when she gave Mat the letter, right? Otherwise the dark oaths wouldn't have allowed her to do it.

 

 

Those timelines are wrong, as soon as she dropped off Mat she went to the WT and met Egwene, perhaps a few hours after Mat finished arriving. This is rather clear from her "I expect to return in one day..." The only reason she would not have returned is because she was dead.

 

Either way we have not seen the last of Verin, I'm with the group that suspects she got Hero status for what she did, it seems to fit Hawkwing's description of what one must do rather well.

 

Those timelines aren't far wrong.

 

"...That bloody Brown brought us here. Haven't seen her in over two weeks, now."

 

-- ToM, A Teaching Chamber, p. 707

 

So when Perrin arrives in Caemlyn, Mat's already been there for more than 20 days, at a minimum. Mat certainly had enough time to wait around on Elayne for a while, see to the gholam, and start production and early testing of Aludra's dragons.

 

-- dwn

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But the time Perrin arrives in Caemlyn is about 2 weeks after he saw Rand in VoG if i have my count right, and we know Verin died before the white tower was attacked, which was a couple days before VoG.

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But the time Perrin arrives in Caemlyn is about 2 weeks after he saw Rand in VoG if i have my count right, and we know Verin died before the white tower was attacked, which was a couple days before VoG.

 

There are counts in other threads putting Perrin there just a few days after VoG. There's definitely something screwy with Mat's timeline--BS has stated he was in Caemlyn 30 days before VoG. The sequence of events works out just fine; the only real problem is Mat's supposed 30 day countdown. There's a whole bunch of posts about it in the typo/errata thread.

 

-- dwn

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But the time Perrin arrives in Caemlyn is about 2 weeks after he saw Rand in VoG if i have my count right, and we know Verin died before the white tower was attacked, which was a couple days before VoG.

 

There are counts in other threads putting Perrin there just a few days after VoG. There's definitely something screwy with Mat's timeline--BS has stated he was in Caemlyn 30 days before VoG. The sequence of events works out just fine; the only real problem is Mat's supposed 30 day countdown. There's a whole bunch of posts about it in the typo/errata thread.

 

-- dwn

 

We know Mat was in Caemlyn for at least 20 days before VoG.

Lots of evidence both from Mat himself as well as Elayne's PoVs.

The dragons are demonstrated at VoG-5 or so -- so allowing for the fact that bellfounders had to work with Aludra etc, after El met Mat, and Mat having hung around for over 10 days by SSL without having met Elayne, the 20 day period is minimal.

 

Verin gave him the letter and transported him the same day.

We know Verin died in WT, the night before VoG.

 

The puzzle is that she intended to be back in one day and release him from his bargain if she could, according to her letter.

That implies she was hoping to free herself of her oaths immediately.

But she apparently didn't return to the WT until the night she died.

Did she get held up somewhere on one of her schemes?

Either it's a textual inconsistency that we'll never work out or somewhere along the line, we'll be able to piece Verin's timeline together.

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But the time Perrin arrives in Caemlyn is about 2 weeks after he saw Rand in VoG if i have my count right, and we know Verin died before the white tower was attacked, which was a couple days before VoG.

 

There are counts in other threads putting Perrin there just a few days after VoG. There's definitely something screwy with Mat's timeline--BS has stated he was in Caemlyn 30 days before VoG. The sequence of events works out just fine; the only real problem is Mat's supposed 30 day countdown. There's a whole bunch of posts about it in the typo/errata thread.

 

-- dwn

 

We know Mat was in Caemlyn for at least 20 days before VoG.

Lots of evidence both from Mat himself as well as Elayne's PoVs.

The dragons are demonstrated at VoG-5 or so -- so allowing for the fact that bellfounders had to work with Aludra etc, after El met Mat, and Mat having hung around for over 10 days by SSL without having met Elayne, the 20 day period is minimal.

 

Verin gave him the letter and transported him the same day.

We know Verin died in WT, the night before VoG.

 

The puzzle is that she intended to be back in one day and release him from his bargain if she could, according to her letter.

That implies she was hoping to free herself of her oaths immediately.

But she apparently didn't return to the WT until the night she died.

Did she get held up somewhere on one of her schemes?

Either it's a textual inconsistency that we'll never work out or somewhere along the line, we'll be able to piece Verin's timeline together.

 

The other half of the weirdness is that Mat seems to have entered the Tower of Ghenjei around VoG+28, which means he was in Caemlyn for 50-60 days rather than 30. Apparent BS has acknowledged some timeline issues in TGS and ToM, so it's really just one of those 'close your eyes and think of England' moments.

 

With Mat, Elayne and Perrin left out of TGS for the most part, it's not surprising that some wires were crossed. At least it's the sort of thing that can be fixed without screwing up the sequence of events.

 

-- dwn

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Somewhere along the line a piece of this timeline got dropped, because everything is just too inconsistent for it to be otherwise. Perhaps in trying to fit everything together BS couldn't make all of the pieces fit together so he took a hammer to it and nailed them in place, irregardless of the inconsistencies that pop up if you look closely enough.

 

And wait, VoG happened the day after the Seanchan raid? I always thought that there was a several day gap between the Seanchan raid (which was when Verin died) and VoG.

 

There is a theory to fix that inconsistency, Dwn, basically: in the last chapter Egwene is being given an assessment of Perrin's forces, we know this is the day before rand is going to give his announcement. Many seem to assume that Perrin was the one to have just arrived, but if you instead say Egwene just arrived and that Perrin had been there for some time it works out better. Futhermore, Mat could have spent any amount of time the ToG due tot he warped nature of time there.

 

If the common theory that Olver won the game of Snakes and Foxes at the same time Mat escaped is correct, it could mean that Mat was in the tower for a matter of weeks to the outside world if he went in at the proper time. Don't forget that about 5 minutes the last time ended up being around 7 days.

Edited by Torn Shadow

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Well shows that.

 

1. Verin didn't truely understand Mat, if she thought he would open it out of curiousity.

2. Verin, if she was truely good should of just told Mat this, but writing it and just assume he will read it isn't very smart. Alot of deaths in Caemyln can be laid at her feet now.

3. I have given up trying to figure out time in the books, I just go with it now. Gives me less headaches that way.

4. Wonder what else she put in Rands letter, assuming the letter Rand was given was from her.

Edited by Sabio

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But the time Perrin arrives in Caemlyn is about 2 weeks after he saw Rand in VoG if i have my count right, and we know Verin died before the white tower was attacked, which was a couple days before VoG.

 

There are counts in other threads putting Perrin there just a few days after VoG. There's definitely something screwy with Mat's timeline--BS has stated he was in Caemlyn 30 days before VoG. The sequence of events works out just fine; the only real problem is Mat's supposed 30 day countdown. There's a whole bunch of posts about it in the typo/errata thread.

 

-- dwn

 

We know Mat was in Caemlyn for at least 20 days before VoG.

Lots of evidence both from Mat himself as well as Elayne's PoVs.

The dragons are demonstrated at VoG-5 or so -- so allowing for the fact that bellfounders had to work with Aludra etc, after El met Mat, and Mat having hung around for over 10 days by SSL without having met Elayne, the 20 day period is minimal.

 

Verin gave him the letter and transported him the same day.

We know Verin died in WT, the night before VoG.

 

The puzzle is that she intended to be back in one day and release him from his bargain if she could, according to her letter.

That implies she was hoping to free herself of her oaths immediately.

But she apparently didn't return to the WT until the night she died.

Did she get held up somewhere on one of her schemes?

Either it's a textual inconsistency that we'll never work out or somewhere along the line, we'll be able to piece Verin's timeline together.

 

The other half of the weirdness is that Mat seems to have entered the Tower of Ghenjei around VoG+28, which means he was in Caemlyn for 50-60 days rather than 30. Apparent BS has acknowledged some timeline issues in TGS and ToM, so it's really just one of those 'close your eyes and think of England' moments.

 

With Mat, Elayne and Perrin left out of TGS for the most part, it's not surprising that some wires were crossed. At least it's the sort of thing that can be fixed without screwing up the sequence of events.

 

-- dwn

Yes he entered as Perrin saw Rand talking to Borderlanders, that is VoG +26.

So definitely 50-odd days.

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Somewhere along the line a piece of this timeline got dropped, because everything is just too inconsistent for it to be otherwise. Perhaps in trying to fit everything together BS couldn't make all of the pieces fit together so he took a hammer to it and nailed them in place, irregardless of the inconsistencies that pop up if you look closely enough.

 

And wait, VoG happened the day after the Seanchan raid? I always thought that there was a several day gap between the Seanchan raid (which was when Verin died) and VoG.

 

VoG occurs as Egwene takes charge in WT - that's Seanchan raid + 1 night (40-odd hours after)

 

There is a theory to fix that inconsistency, Dwn, basically: in the last chapter Egwene is being given an assessment of Perrin's forces, we know this is the day before rand is going to give his announcement. Many seem to assume that Perrin was the one to have just arrived, but if you instead say Egwene just arrived and that Perrin had been there for some time it works out better. Futhermore, Mat could have spent any amount of time the ToG due tot he warped nature of time there.

Perrin sees Rand talk to borderlanders as Grady drops Mat off. So we know when Mat left for the ToG. VoG+25/26

 

If the common theory that Olver won the game of Snakes and Foxes at the same time Mat escaped is correct, it could mean that Mat was in the tower for a matter of weeks to the outside world if he went in at the proper time. Don't forget that about 5 minutes the last time ended up being around 7 days.

True we don't know when he came out. But it appears time didn't stretch that much, maybe not at all - he was in the ToG for 2 days max if the Caemlyn raid occurs while FoM is on.

Edit: typos

Edited by Sharaman

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Well shows that.

 

1. Verin didn't truely understand Mat, if she thought he would open it out of curiousity.

2. Verin, if she was truely good should of just told Mat this, but writing it and just assume he will read it isn't very smart. Alot of deaths in Caemyln can be laid at her feet now.

3. I have given up trying to figure out time in the books, I just go with it now. Gives me less headaches that way.

4. Wonder what else she put in Rands letter, assuming the letter Rand was given was from her.

Verin barely knew Mat. She couldn't have told him directly, due to her Oaths, and Mat has all those deaths at his feet as well, don't forget.

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Verin barely knew Mat. She couldn't have told him directly, due to her Oaths, and Mat has all those deaths at his feet as well, don't forget.

 

I disagree with Mat being to blame in any way, shape, or form. He didn't know what was in the letter, and Verin didn't make it sound important. While it's likely to blame him, I think it borders on baroque to have /any/ logic that makes Mat to blame. :)

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I think Camelyn is relatively safe. First of all Talmanes is gunning straight for those Dragons, which, when he gets to them I believe will push back the trollocs pretty nicely. Second, the Kin is still in the city, and while Elayne wouldn't force them to fight for Camelyn against intruders I have no reason to doubt that they will take up arms against the Trollocs. Then there are the AS that are also in Camelyn. Im sure all the sell swords around Camelyn will fight alongside the Band. All in all I see a blood bath for the trollocs if Talmanes can get to those Dragons fast enough. If Camelyn is not under the dreamspike Elayne will surely be notified, she is at TG with about a million soldiers and many AS...she would bring Perrin and his troops back along with a few more AS and the Trolloc invasion is a mere inconveinence. If Taim and his cronies decide to join in against Camelyn that could change things quite a bit. I, however, don't think this will happen. I believe Taim will have his hands full with Logain and his faction/the "tower" and "rebel" AS (funny how Pevara nad her group consider themselves the real AS...cant wait to see what happens when all these women find out Egwene has taken the seat.

 

I'm hoping for the best...but I still wouldnt mind seeing Elayne put in her place.

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I agree Mat is in no way to blame for the deaths caused by the attack. He was given an option to read it or not and Mat being wary of Aes Sedai wanted no part of it. Had she said thousands of people will die if you don't read this, then yes I would agree Mat would be to blame. Maybe Verin couldn't of said it straight out but she is Aes Sedai I m sure she could of made clear how important the info in the letter was. She gave a choice to one of the most distrustful people of Aes Sedai.

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It's clearly Verin's fault, not Mat's.

 

All she had to do to make certain he'll open the letter was to omit the part in their deal that he had to follow the instructions written in it. Then he had no reason not to open it after 10 days. If he knows an invasion is coming and he is Caemlyn at the time, of course he'll alert the Queen.

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Verin barely knew Mat. She couldn't have told him directly, due to her Oaths, and Mat has all those deaths at his feet as well, don't forget.
I disagree with Mat being to blame in any way, shape, or form. He didn't know what was in the letter, and Verin didn't make it sound important. While it's likely to blame him, I think it borders on baroque to have /any/ logic that makes Mat to blame. :)
He didn't know what was in the letter because he refused to open it. He had the information, and failed to act. That is clearly his fault. Verin said that if she didn't need him to do what was in the letter, she'd come back and take it from him. She didn't, so she needs it done, surely an indication that it is somewhat important? So, he failed to do something that he knew was important to Verin, at the very least. His fault. His dislike of AS is irrational - how often have they acted against him, rather than saving his life? His fault. Hell, Verin has saved his life before. People can also say that he refused to open the letter because then he would have been forced to do as it said - but doing as it said would be his choice. He chose not to open it, and he chose not to act on the information within. Clearly, Mat is at fault here too.

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Verin barely knew Mat. She couldn't have told him directly, due to her Oaths, and Mat has all those deaths at his feet as well, don't forget.
I disagree with Mat being to blame in any way, shape, or form. He didn't know what was in the letter, and Verin didn't make it sound important. While it's likely to blame him, I think it borders on baroque to have /any/ logic that makes Mat to blame. :)
He didn't know what was in the letter because he refused to open it. He had the information, and failed to act. That is clearly his fault. Verin said that if she didn't need him to do what was in the letter, she'd come back and take it from him. She didn't, so she needs it done, surely an indication that it is somewhat important? So, he failed to do something that he knew was important to Verin, at the very least. His fault. His dislike of AS is irrational - how often have they acted against him, rather than saving his life? His fault. Hell, Verin has saved his life before. People can also say that he refused to open the letter because then he would have been forced to do as it said - but doing as it said would be his choice. He chose not to open it, and he chose not to act on the information within. Clearly, Mat is at fault here too.

 

Well he made a vow that he would follow what was in the letter. So while the letter was important to Verin, it might not have been to Mat. For all we know, it could have said: "A friend of mine got captured by the Seanchan and is being held at Falme. Please help her escape." Considering Mat had like a billion things to do, that would have been yet another complication while important to Verin, was not to the overall picture. Obviously it wasnt that, but it could have been for all Mat knew. And thats the thing, it could have been anything. And while Verin may have implied it was important, she never actually said so.

 

And how is his dislike of Aes Sedai irrational? Since the very start of the series they have tried to use him. Granted not to the same extent as Rand, but still, they have attempted to. Mat has saved enough Aes Sedai in his time - and gone out of his way to do so - that he owes absolutely nothing to them. And I cant blame him for not being caught up in Aes Sedai schemes. Not to mention, Mat hardly knew her. He liked her (for an Aes Sedai) but hardly knew her. Come on, why would he open that letter. And Verin implied in book 3 that they could just let Mat die and chose their own person to blow the Horn; so she wasnt exactly on Mats side of the fence, so to speak.

 

In the end I dont think Mat is to blame. however, he will blame himself.

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Ok, I'm not sure if this was discussed yet or mentioned, but did any one feel that the whole letter was complete sh$t? I hate to say it, but it was so...forced. I mean, out of all of the people Verin is the one who leaves letter with Mat instead of...oh, I don't know, the f*&king queen of Andor (not like the woman didn't know her for God's sake). The whole situation is very fishy and smells of very poor set up for a plot and I was very, very unimpressed. I mean, we readers can only be fooled and pulled by the nose so far and it must be done masterfully. So, to be frank (if I wasn't so far) the whole thing is bad and almost pointless (I get why she had to use the means and not betraying th LoG within an hour of death and all, but still I say, f'ing pointless).

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