Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[clutzyninja]

Well, I hypopthesized that his STATED goal of destroying the pattern is bluster.  And it was more just a thought than what I actually think.  But it could be that his true goal is just to reign supreme over the world, remaking things the way he wants.  Either way, destroying the pattern or ruling the world, it would still be a victory.

[EmperorAllspice]

It could be more like a demented Arcade game for him.

 

I've heard people describe the Pattern as a chess playing program and the dark one has been trying to beat it forever

 

You know how you could never BEAT arcade games. You just played forever and tried to get a high score. Imagine if that's what the dark one was trying with his attempts.

[clutzyninja]

It could be more like a demented Arcade game for him.

 

I've heard people describe the Pattern as a chess playing program and the dark one has been trying to beat it forever

 

You know how you could never BEAT arcade games. You just played forever and tried to get a high score. Imagine if that's what the dark one was trying with his attempts.

It could certainly explain why he's so grumpy.

[EmperorAllspice]

Dark One never really struck me as THAT grumpy.

[EmperorAllspice]

So did the Eye of the World even do or mean anything in the grand scheme of things?

 

Like, I thought Ishamael said that he'd spread word of it and made sure that the Dragon became aware of the Eye so that his Ta'vereness would lead him there so that the Forsaken could claim it... but so what if they did? The other Forsaken can freely use Saidin without fear of corruption, what use would they have for a pool of filtered Saidin?

[mb]

Earlier in the book, Moiraine told that the Eye had enough Power to break the Seals of the Dark One's prison.  That might have been what they were attempting when they arrived.

I am not entirely sure why Ishamael mentioned it to the 3 taveren.  One reason might be that the Shadow could not find it without them.

Only guessing with those things.

[Agitel]

RJ stated that the DO is aware of what the men channel because of the filter, and Aginor may have wanted to do some things without the DO peering over his shoulder.

[Rhienne]

Does the oath rod allow Aes Sedai to lie via sarcasm?  I ask because of a scene in tGS when Cadsuane meets with one of her eyes and ears in Bandar Eban.  He informs her that there are many Aiel in the city, and she replies 'I hadn't noticed.' when clearly she has.

[Agitel]

Some people don't think that would have happened under Jordan, but turns of phrase and idioms are allowed under the Oath, the argument is that sarcasm is too.

[EmperorAllspice]

I swear they also make really outlandish threats about boxing ears and tanning hides and breaking people in half that I don't think they should be able to say if they had to tell the truth.

[jedman67]

An AS cannot tell what she believes to be an untruth plainly, but I would assume expressions and sarcasm could work because she doesn't believe that she is saying an untruth; its an expression. RJ stated that there are a thousand loopholes in the three oaths

[clutzyninja]

Right, they are only preventing things they consider lies.  Cadsuane wasn't actually trying to convince the person that she really hadn't noticed the Aiel, so she's good to go.

[jedman67]

Why did Egwene call Siuan to the carpet right after she was raised to Amyrlin? (quote) [Egwene]"This won't do, Siuan. I know everything. Daughter."

[mb]

Why did Egwene call Siuan to the carpet right after she was raised to Amyrlin? (quote) [Egwene]"This won't do, Siuan. I know everything. Daughter."

After Siuan entered the room, it seemed that Siuan was about to leave the room when she saw Moghedien/"Marigan".  Earlier, Elayne & Nynaeve told to Egwene about the involvement with Moghedien; and about the ones that knew.  Siuan was one of them.

[Rhienne]

A few questions after re-reading tGS:

 

1) How much exactly does linking increase strength? In the attack by the Seanchan, Egwene (who can barely channel due to fork root) links with Nicola and two/three (she lists three other Novices, but later the description says she is linked with Nicola and two others) other of the strongest Novices in the Tower.  Nicola is listed as level 13 on the 13th depository saidar ranking, so I assume the other two would at least be level 10.  Egwene says that while linked to them (prior to getting Vora's sa'angreal) that with the circle she can channel nearly as much saidar as she could normally channel on her own.  On the other hand, in aCoS two linked Black Sisters, Falion and Ispan (both level 8) are able to overpower Nynaeve (level 18).  Is Egwene's circle reduced because she is under the influence of fork root?  Does that limit the overall maximum strength of the circle?

 

2) After the battle against the Seanchan, Egwene reflects on why Siuan disobeyed her, and comes to the conclusion that it was because she didn't share enough information with her.  To me, the obvious reason would be that Siuan knew Egwene was dosed by forkroot, and as far as she could know, would still be guarded and unable to protect herself from the Seanchan.  Not sharing information about her success against Elaida seems like a minor detail when the Seanchan were capturing every channeler they could.  Am I missing something?

 

3) Is it really possible for an Aes Sedai and a Warder to have a proper romantic relationship?  I know we hear about Green Sisters marrying their Warders, but we never get to see inside their heads and the nature of their relationship.  Gawyn's and Egwene's relationship just doesn't seem right to me because they are clearly not equals in it.  Nynaeve's and Lan's at least gets around this a little by making Nynaeve in charge in public and Lan in charge in private.  But seeing Egwene and Gawyn makes me wonder whether without this kind of set-up a 'healthy' relationship is really possible?

 

4) We have the juxtaposition of Rand's killing Graendal's compelled minions with Balefire, and Egwene deliberately targeting raken carrying captured Aes Sedai during the Seanchan raid.  Both characters state something roughly equivalent to 'they're better off dead', but Rand's action comes off as much worse (to me anyway), and I'm not sure why.  Rand's goal is killing a Forsaken he doesn't know how to defeat otherwise; Egwene's is preventing Seanchan from having more damane and from learning Travelling - both good goals, I think.  The people Rand kills are essentially unhealable given that we now know what happens to people when Compulsion is removed, while the Aes Sedai Egwene kills would theoretically (depending on their mindset and length of captivity) be rescuable without too much lasting harm - this makes Egwene's action look slightly worse from a moral perspective.  In terms of results, both of them are only partly successful - Rand drives Graendal away and destroys her power base but doesn't kill her, and Egwene kills many of the Seanchan, but is unable to kill all of the captured Aes Sedai with the result that they learn Travelling anyway.  In terms of mind frame, neither Rand nor Egwene feels bad about what they are doing, they both think they are making the right decision.  So why does Egwene's scene come off as a crowning moment for her, while Rand's makes him seem a monster?

Edited July 25, 2013 by Rhienne

[clutzyninja]

 

4) We have the juxtaposition of Rand's killing Graendal's compelled minions with Balefire, and Egwene deliberately targeting raken carrying captured Aes Sedai during the Seanchan raid.  Both characters state something roughly equivalent to 'they're better off dead', but Rand's action comes off as much worse (to me anyway), and I'm not sure why.  Rand's goal is killing a Forsaken he doesn't know how to defeat otherwise; Egwene's is preventing Seanchan from having more damane and from learning Travelling - both good goals, I think.  The people Rand kills are essentially unhealable given that we now know what happens to people when Compulsion is removed, while the Aes Sedai Egwene kills would theoretically (depending on their mindset and length of captivity) be rescuable without too much lasting harm - this makes Egwene's action look slightly worse from a moral perspective.  In terms of results, both of them are only partly successful - Rand drives Graendal away and destroys her power base but doesn't kill her, and Egwene kills many of the Seanchan, but is unable to kill all of the captured Aes Sedai with the result that they learn Travelling anyway.  In terms of mind frame, neither Rand nor Egwene feels bad about what they are doing, they both think they are making the right decision.  So why does Egwene's scene come off as a crowning moment for her, while Rand's makes him seem a monster?

I suppose the easy answer is that Rand used balefire, and Egwene didn't.  As readers we've had it ingrained in us that balefire is bad bad bad.

[Mr Ares]

A few questions after re-reading tGS:

 

1) How much exactly does linking increase strength? In the attack by the Seanchan, Egwene (who can barely channel due to fork root) links with Nicola and two/three (she lists three other Novices, but later the description says she is linked with Nicola and two others) other of the strongest Novices in the Tower.  Nicola is listed as level 13 on the 13th depository saidar ranking, so I assume the other two would at least be level 10.  Egwene says that while linked to them (prior to getting Vora's sa'angreal) that with the circle she can channel nearly as much saidar as she could normally channel on her own.  On the other hand, in aCoS two linked Black Sisters, Falion and Ispan (both level 8) are able to overpower Nynaeve (level 18).  Is Egwene's circle reduced because she is under the influence of fork root?  Does that limit the overall maximum strength of the circle?

Exactly how much does it increase it? Unknown. All that is known is that some (probably most, certainly not all) of the AS's strength is added to the link. Egwene has little strength to contribute to the link, due to her being dosed with forkroot. Don't get too hung up on "levels" - RJ had a level listing mainly for the purpose of keeping AS hierarchy straight, and 13th Depository's extrapolation is imperfect. We don't know how strength progresses from one level to another.

 

3) Is it really possible for an Aes Sedai and a Warder to have a proper romantic relationship?  I know we hear about Green Sisters marrying their Warders, but we never get to see inside their heads and the nature of their relationship.  Gawyn's and Egwene's relationship just doesn't seem right to me because they are clearly not equals in it.  Nynaeve's and Lan's at least gets around this a little by making Nynaeve in charge in public and Lan in charge in private.  But seeing Egwene and Gawyn makes me wonder whether without this kind of set-up a 'healthy' relationship is really possible?

Given that romance and equality are not the same thing, I don't see why the inequality is a barrier to a romantic relationship. A relationship can be healthy and unequal.

 

4) We have the juxtaposition of Rand's killing Graendal's compelled minions with Balefire, and Egwene deliberately targeting raken carrying captured Aes Sedai during the Seanchan raid.  Both characters state something roughly equivalent to 'they're better off dead', but Rand's action comes off as much worse (to me anyway), and I'm not sure why.  Rand's goal is killing a Forsaken he doesn't know how to defeat otherwise; Egwene's is preventing Seanchan from having more damane and from learning Travelling - both good goals, I think.  The people Rand kills are essentially unhealable given that we now know what happens to people when Compulsion is removed, while the Aes Sedai Egwene kills would theoretically (depending on their mindset and length of captivity) be rescuable without too much lasting harm - this makes Egwene's action look slightly worse from a moral perspective.  In terms of results, both of them are only partly successful - Rand drives Graendal away and destroys her power base but doesn't kill her, and Egwene kills many of the Seanchan, but is unable to kill all of the captured Aes Sedai with the result that they learn Travelling anyway.  In terms of mind frame, neither Rand nor Egwene feels bad about what they are doing, they both think they are making the right decision.  So why does Egwene's scene come off as a crowning moment for her, while Rand's makes him seem a monster?

Egwene has been traumatised at the hands of the Seanchan, and so believes that she's saving these women from a fate worse than death. Rand simply doesn't care, he's killing these people not to save them, but merely because it's expedient, because the best way to kill Graendal is to nuke her entire palace and everyone in it. Rand's actions are thus demonstrative of his lack of humanity.

[Suttree]

 

4) We have the juxtaposition of Rand's killing Graendal's compelled minions with Balefire, and Egwene deliberately targeting raken carrying captured Aes Sedai during the Seanchan raid.  Both characters state something roughly equivalent to 'they're better off dead', but Rand's action comes off as much worse (to me anyway), and I'm not sure why.  Rand's goal is killing a Forsaken he doesn't know how to defeat otherwise; Egwene's is preventing Seanchan from having more damane and from learning Travelling - both good goals, I think.  The people Rand kills are essentially unhealable given that we now know what happens to people when Compulsion is removed, while the Aes Sedai Egwene kills would theoretically (depending on their mindset and length of captivity) be rescuable without too much lasting harm - this makes Egwene's action look slightly worse from a moral perspective.  In terms of results, both of them are only partly successful - Rand drives Graendal away and destroys her power base but doesn't kill her, and Egwene kills many of the Seanchan, but is unable to kill all of the captured Aes Sedai with the result that they learn Travelling anyway.  In terms of mind frame, neither Rand nor Egwene feels bad about what they are doing, they both think they are making the right decision.  So why does Egwene's scene come off as a crowning moment for her, while Rand's makes him seem a monster?

Egwene has been traumatised at the hands of the Seanchan, and so believes that she's saving these women from a fate worse than death. Rand simply doesn't care, he's killing these people not to save them, but merely because it's expedient, because the best way to kill Graendal is to nuke her entire palace and everyone in it. Rand's actions are thus demonstrative of his lack of humanity.

 

Indeed. That was a very low moment for Dark Rand. It's also important to point out that there are various levels of compulsion, not all are turned into mindless slaves and certainly don't fit into a "better off dead" category. Finally Nynaeve sure as hell would have wanted a shot at healing those people. I would bet on her to succeed eventually.

[Rhienne]

 

 

4) We have the juxtaposition of Rand's killing Graendal's compelled minions with Balefire, and Egwene deliberately targeting raken carrying captured Aes Sedai during the Seanchan raid.  Both characters state something roughly equivalent to 'they're better off dead', but Rand's action comes off as much worse (to me anyway), and I'm not sure why.  Rand's goal is killing a Forsaken he doesn't know how to defeat otherwise; Egwene's is preventing Seanchan from having more damane and from learning Travelling - both good goals, I think.  The people Rand kills are essentially unhealable given that we now know what happens to people when Compulsion is removed, while the Aes Sedai Egwene kills would theoretically (depending on their mindset and length of captivity) be rescuable without too much lasting harm - this makes Egwene's action look slightly worse from a moral perspective.  In terms of results, both of them are only partly successful - Rand drives Graendal away and destroys her power base but doesn't kill her, and Egwene kills many of the Seanchan, but is unable to kill all of the captured Aes Sedai with the result that they learn Travelling anyway.  In terms of mind frame, neither Rand nor Egwene feels bad about what they are doing, they both think they are making the right decision.  So why does Egwene's scene come off as a crowning moment for her, while Rand's makes him seem a monster?

Egwene has been traumatised at the hands of the Seanchan, and so believes that she's saving these women from a fate worse than death. Rand simply doesn't care, he's killing these people not to save them, but merely because it's expedient, because the best way to kill Graendal is to nuke her entire palace and everyone in it. Rand's actions are thus demonstrative of his lack of humanity.

 

Indeed. That was a very low moment for Dark Rand. It's also important to point out that there are various levels of compulsion, not all are turned into mindless slaves and certainly don't fit into a "better off dead" category. Finally Nynaeve sure as hell would have wanted a shot at healing those people. I would bet on her to succeed eventually.

 

I thought there was a quote from one of the other Forsaken that Graendal was exceptionally heavy handed with the compulsion?  I may be thinking of something Rand said though, which might not be too reliable. 

 

I don't think its completely right for Egwene to say those Aes Sedai are better off dead.  After all, she survived her captivity, and I don't think she wanted to be 'put out of her misery' while she was captive.  Alivia is another example of an ex-damane who was leashed for hundreds of year, and I think (could be wrong) that in WH/CoT some of the captured damane are beginning to adapt to freedom.  There is also the former Aes Sedai who has adapted completely to being a damane.  I don't think she wants to die.  Regardless, I don't think its Egwene's choice to make for them, just as it isn't Rand's choice not to give Nynaeve (or Sumeko, Flin, etc.) a chance to Heal the compulsion. 

[Suttree]

I thought there was a quote from one of the other Forsaken that Graendal was exceptionally heavy handed with the compulsion?  I may be thinking of something Rand said though, which might not be too reliable.

Well she is at times, that often makes people forget though that she is the most skilled person alive with the weave. She has everything from mindless slaves to people that are barely touched.

 

I don't think its completely right for Egwene to say those Aes Sedai are better off dead.  After all, she survived her captivity, and I don't think she wanted to be 'put out of her misery' while she was captive.  Alivia is another example of an ex-damane who was leashed for hundreds of year, and I think (could be wrong) that in WH/CoT some of the captured damane are beginning to adapt to freedom.  There is also the former Aes Sedai who has adapted completely to being a damane.  I don't think she wants to die.  Regardless, I don't think its Egwene's choice to make for them, just as it isn't Rand's choice not to give Nynaeve (or Sumeko, Flin, etc.) a chance to Heal the compulsion.

 

For all that it's what she personally believes, there is also the need to try and keep the Seanchan from gaining more channelers and potentially travelling. It's a tough moment to be sure. Again though as Mr Ares said:

 

Rand simply doesn't care, he's killing these people not to save them, but merely because it's expedient, because the best way to kill Graendal is to nuke her entire palace and everyone in it. Rand's actions are thus demonstrative of his lack of humanity.

 

That is why it comes of worse to the reader IMO.

[MasterAblar]

While I believe Rand that anyone near Graendal would have suffered the same kind of compulsion as the boy Nyneave healed, partly because Rand isn't looking for any justification at this point and is really just telling it as it is, or at least as he perceives it, what makes it worse is that it's not at all certain that Rand particularly cares that those people can't be saved. It's entirely possible, and even probable that he would acted the same way even if didn't believe everyone was under compulsion.

[Plato]

 

I thought there was a quote from one of the other Forsaken that Graendal was exceptionally heavy handed with the compulsion?  I may be thinking of something Rand said though, which might not be too reliable. 

 

 

 

I don't think its completely right for Egwene to say those Aes Sedai are better off dead.  After all, she survived her captivity, and I don't think she wanted to be 'put out of her misery' while she was captive.  Alivia is another example of an ex-damane who was leashed for hundreds of year, and I think (could be wrong) that in WH/CoT some of the captured damane are beginning to adapt to freedom.  There is also the former Aes Sedai who has adapted completely to being a damane.  I don't think she wants to die.  Regardless, I don't think its Egwene's choice to make for them, just as it isn't Rand's choice not to give Nynaeve (or Sumeko, Flin, etc.) a chance to Heal the compulsion. 

 

 

Didn't Nynaeve, when curing the courier boy's compulsion, find that it had so many layers and layers and layers that nothing was left of the boy himself.  Then he died anyway from the shock of it.  And if Graendal had that many layers of compulsion just for her courier, imagine what she has for her favorites. 

 

I agree that it is due to Rand being so dark and nihilistic that caused him to bail-nuke the whole palace.  But there weren't a lot of options to begin with when dealing with Graendal.

[Suttree]

The thing to keep in mind with Graendal is she was a healer of the mind without compare in the AoL. It is explicitly stated in the books that her "favorites" were so heavily compulsed it made people forget how subtle and light her touch could be.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Suttree

[jedman67]

Also, Rand was acting callously - harder than hard, and quite depressed and somewhat insane as well to boot. It wasn't just that he balefired them, in his mind they were already dead (i would like to hypothesize that the CK Balestream contributed to the pattern breaking down in the last books, much like its been theorized that Demmy was instructed to unleash balefire in service to the DO - i think on Theoryland theres an essay on that).

 

True, he did end up killing a Forsaken and a black sister, but he didnt nail Granny.

 

For Egwene, it was war - there is almost no chance of rescuing a damane before its too late; she herself was lucky. If the seanchan didn't learn Travelling, they would still learn valuable information about the AS and powerful weaves for other damane that could be used against them. It was a difficult but necessary decision for her - kill her sisters who would otherwise be - for all intents and purposes - irredeemably enslaved; or allow her enemies to learn WT secrets.

 

The thing to keep in mind with Graendal is she was a healer of the mind without compare in the AoL. It is explicitly stated in the books that her "favorites" were so heavily compulsed it made people forget how subtle and light her touch could be.

 

It's also mentioned - i think by Sammael - that her slaves were virtually worthless from Granny's Compulsion. 

Edited July 25, 2013 by jedman67

[mb]

Is Moiraine still bound to the Oaths (since she still lives) or were they "disconnected" (since her bond with Lan was disconnected)?