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Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

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Personally, I don't think it was the Forsaken that won in the Age of Legends, so much as it was the AoL society that beat itself.  They had become complacent, arrogant and corrupt.  Arguably, Lews Therin did as much to help the Dark One as to hurt him.  His arrogance was no small factor in driving many of the male Forsaken to the Dark One.  They were so driven to beat him, they went over.  If you're so arrogant that you cause multiple people to sell their souls to try to bring you down, you're probably kind of a dick.

 

Basically, the AoL had to lose, because they (including Lews Therin) didn't really understand why they should win.  They had lost sight of the importance of hope, the freedom of choice, and the purpose of sacrifice.  

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I'm not too sure, but I doubt they used blunt force, not even Sammael. 

 

He would have to compell an entire nation, which is pretty impossible. 

 

The major difference between Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal: 

 

Rhavin: Used Morgase as a proxy and didn't actually take over for himself. So the people got pissed at her not him. 

 

Sammael: Became pretty much the leader, the head of the Council of Nine, and basically threw the King out of his way. While he likely compelled a few of the other higher-ups, he didn't compel them all. After securing his position, it would seem he ruled with tyranny and fear. The people of Illian weren't exactly fond of how things were going down. 

 

Be'lal: Apparently people liked him. He played on Tear's hatred of Aes Sedai and became popular. Again, he likely compelled a few people here and there to secure his story as a High Lord, but after that he held influence because of his views. (Although no doubt opposition was silenced when necessary) 

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but if the Pattern is contriving means by which Rand can discover what he's fighting for, why didn't it do the same for Lews?

 

This is why the Pattern bothers me so much. Because it can do stuff like plan out the circumstances of a person's birth, and yet it can't keep the male half of the source from being tainted, and we're meant to buy that the DO has a chance of winning.

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Well I'd say the Pattern doesn't contrive means by which Rand can see why they should win. 

 

The Pattern can't shape someone's personality, it can only tug them in directions which could possibly help. Ultimately, it's still up to the person themselves, and the Shadow has as much chance as the Pattern. 

 

While the Pattern arguably leads people through the right situations, the Shadow equally pulls in the other direction. For everything the Pattern contrives, the Shadow counters, so it comes down to the people themselves to decide which to take. 

 

Edit: Oh, and you'll hate this, but the Taint may not have been a mistake. The Pattern may have intended it. Or at least allowed it to happen. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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The 13 black Ajah that get sent to Tear in book 3. Did Mesaana and Be'lal work together. Does Mesaana rent out Black Ajah to whomever asks for them? or did he contact them himself and they left without her blessing? If they could, then how did he get in touch with the elusive Black Ajah?

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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Pretty sure they worked together on it. Likely they came to a compromise of some sort that would see both of them benefit. Be'lal get's Callandor and Mesaana gets...something. I'm not exactly sure. Probably not get killed by the guy with Callandor. 

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They have the most solid alliance. They all help each other out against all the others until they are the only 3 left. Then they would probably start killing each other. 

 

Edit: Mind you, that's Forsaken "help". They don't exactly aid the others when they get in trouble, but the share information and such with each other. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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I'm not exactly sure, but I would say it's because they are the least interested in being the ultimate ruler. Graendal wants everything to herself, Sammael is power hungry, Rhavin is the same. 

 

Demandred just wants Rand dead, he doesn't care about much else. Anything that will help him achieve that he will use. 

 

Mesaana was pissed off with the world. They refused to see how awesome she was, she was made a teacher instead of a researcher. She wants the world to burn. 

 

Semirhage just wants to do her experiments and torture people. She Turned because they gave her the option of swearing an Oath to stop her fun or Severing from the Source. She chose the 3rd option. 

 

Working together achieves their goals. 

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Hm, makes you think that Aginor might've fit well in their little alliance.

 

Oh, and how differently do you think things would've gone had Mesaana and Semirhage showed up when Rand was cleansing Saidin?

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I was going to comment on that. I recall that at least one of those 3 didn't like Aginor. I think it was Demandred. He thought he was a madman like Ishamael. 

 

I don't know about Semirhage, but Demandred at least was pretty disgusted by what Aginor did. Not like he is a good guy, he doesn't want to stop him, he'd just rather not associate with him. 

 

a) Semirhage was apparently there, it was just not shown. Which probably means she didn't really do anything. 

 

I don't think it would have gone any differently. The Forsaken were never going to risk their lives to stop Rand. Most of them didn't want to go, but.. well, you saw Mesaana's punishment. The others weren't as stupid. 

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Actually, why didn't they send actual forces there. Like, I dunno. Couldn't Demandred have poked his head in, seen that they had a means of sensing male channelers, then left via gateway to amass some actual channeling forces then come back?

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I'm not entirely sure. 

 

I think it may have something to do with the Chodean Kal. They didn't want 1) anyone else actually getting their hands on it. 2) any "savage" screwing it up and getting everyone destroyed. 

 

It was a very delicate position they were in, if they pushed Rand the wrong way, they could end up getting everyone killed. That's why they didn't just barrage Rand with attacks. They attacked the defenders, but wouldn't risk Rand until they were close enough to either balefire him, or make sure he died instantly. 

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How is Demandred with Lewis Therin when he goes mad (prologue of EotW)?? Weren't all the Forsaken sealed in the Bore, which caused the Dragon to go mad?

Edited by BlazeTTD

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How is Demandred with Lewis Therin when he goes mad (prologue of EotW)?? Weren't all the Forsaken sealed in the Bore, which caused the Dragon to go mad?

That was Ishamael and he was only partially sealed. He got spun out at various intervals, hence being able to influence Hawkwing etc.

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Has Moiraine had sex with a man before Eye of the World? If so, do you think it was with Lan or somebody else?

 

emphasis on the word man here btw...  :wink:

Please, let us not fall into the quagmire of crappy fanfiction please. 

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That was Ishamael and he was only partially sealed. He got spun out at various intervals, hence being able to influence Hawkwing etc.

Well I feel silly on both counts! Thanks for the answer!

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"Spun out" is probably the wrong way to put it, it implies that the Pattern or the Wheel was spinning out his thread at ~1000 year intervals similar to how it spins out Heroes Birgitte or other, more mundane souls.  More likely, Ishamael was only partly trapped, and his talents with Tel'aran'Rhiod helped him "bypass" his imprisonment from time to time.  

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"Spun out" is probably the wrong way to put it, it implies that the Pattern or the Wheel was spinning out his thread at ~1000 year intervals similar to how it spins out Heroes Birgitte or other, more mundane souls.  More likely, Ishamael was only partly trapped, and his talents with Tel'aran'Rhiod helped him "bypass" his imprisonment from time to time.  

Yes that is what I meant, thanks for that Thrasy...

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Do aes sedai still have loyalties to their nations? I.e. what would happen if the towers best interests were met at the expense of a sisters home country? I suppose I am thinking specifically of elayne and egwene (and mabe nynaeve to a lesser extent). Is egwene elayne's subject? Is elayne's first loyalty to andor or the tower? Would she have to follow an order from egwene that advesely affected andor? I know nynaeve has made it clear she would put lan/malkier before the tower but is that how things actually work?

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They arent supposed to. As it says in the accepted test, the woman is supposed to be washed of all ties that once bound her. The Tower is her home now, 

 

In reality, they still hold whatever loyalties to their homeland. In terms of following orders, yes, they would have to follow orders even if it was to the detriment of their homeland. 

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^ Yeah, but Elayne is a special case. As a Queen she can't renounce her loyalty to her country and doesn't intend to be just a pawn of the White Tower.

 

Edited by David Selig

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They arent supposed to. As it says in the accepted test, the woman is supposed to be washed of all ties that once bound her. The Tower is her home now, 

 

In reality, they still hold whatever loyalties to their homeland. In terms of following orders, yes, they would have to follow orders even if it was to the detriment of their homeland. 

until one gains the shawl, and the experience necessary, her ties to her previous life are broken. They are restored with the shawl, i believe, but (hopefully) the newly raised AS understands the Tower must come first. Why the Tower first? The Tower stands for stability in the world, a beacon of the forces of Light. 

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