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I know what CAUSED the link.

 

My issue is whether the creation of the link was intentional.

 

Moridin could've crossed the streams on purpose. or the Dark One could've altered probability using his influence over the pattern to make sure Moridin's stream hit Rand's

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I know what CAUSED the link.

 

My issue is whether the creation of the link was intentional.

 

Moridin could've crossed the streams on purpose. or the Dark One could've altered probability using his influence over the pattern to make sure Moridin's stream hit Rand's

 

We should RAFO this for now.

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I assumed that the Dark One tugged on the pattern when Moridin fired his stream, causing the two to connect.

 

I know that Rand goes mad due to using the True Power, however, without this link, he wouldn't have been able to do that. What would Moridin have done then?

 

Sorry, I just want the Forsaken to be cunning, y'know?

 

And I still want to know why Mesaana (the one who orchestrated the tower schism and manipulated every remaining tower sister into hating each other) didn't believe one of her best agents about a plot to uncover the Black Ajah but the Dark One did. Could the Forsaken stop losing IQ points the second they appear on page? yeesh!

You use the tools you have. If they didn't have the link, they would have used something else to push him over the edge. I'm not aware of any indicator the link was deliberately caused, though.

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I assumed that the Dark One tugged on the pattern when Moridin fired his stream, causing the two to connect.

 

I know that Rand goes mad due to using the True Power, however, without this link, he wouldn't have been able to do that. What would Moridin have done then?

 

Sorry, I just want the Forsaken to be cunning, y'know?

 

And I still want to know why Mesaana (the one who orchestrated the tower schism and manipulated every remaining tower sister into hating each other) didn't believe one of her best agents about a plot to uncover the Black Ajah but the Dark One did. Could the Forsaken stop losing IQ points the second they appear on page? yeesh!

You use the tools you have. If they didn't have the link, they would have used something else to push him over the edge. I'm not aware of any indicator the link was deliberately caused, though.

 

but do you buy that they could've found another means that was just as effective?

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I assumed that the Dark One tugged on the pattern when Moridin fired his stream, causing the two to connect.

 

I know that Rand goes mad due to using the True Power, however, without this link, he wouldn't have been able to do that. What would Moridin have done then?

 

Sorry, I just want the Forsaken to be cunning, y'know?

 

And I still want to know why Mesaana (the one who orchestrated the tower schism and manipulated every remaining tower sister into hating each other) didn't believe one of her best agents about a plot to uncover the Black Ajah but the Dark One did. Could the Forsaken stop losing IQ points the second they appear on page? yeesh!

You use the tools you have. If they didn't have the link, they would have used something else to push him over the edge. I'm not aware of any indicator the link was deliberately caused, though.

 

but do you buy that they could've found another means that was just as effective?

Quite possibly. Rand had plenty of weak points that could have been attacked, and the Taint was having a noticeably negative effect on his sanity - to attack those he loves or to increase the stress on him to beyond breaking point, if Semi had dragged him back with the Domination Band rather than torturing him, these are all viable options. It was killing a woman that was one of the big things that pushed him over the edge - crossing the red line he had drawn for himself. The TP helped a lot, but there were enough other contributing factors that it might well have happened even without the link.

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Like another person told, the crossing balefires caused the link.

Main reason for Moridin's balefire seems to be to prevent Mashadar from being balefired.

they both were defending themselves from Mashadar, both attampted to balefire Mashadar at the same time, and balefire touching balefire is never a good idea. I believe the link was unintentional; Moridin becomes very melancholy and nihilistic because of Rand's darkness and moodyness. However, the link was a tool that they took advantage of.

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The Dark One tugging at the Pattern so that Moridin's balefire could hit Rand's?  I am not so sure about that.

I think the Dark One either allows or disallows True Power use, and maybe also specific True Power weaves; not much beyond those.

the direction of True Power weaves seems doubtful to me.

 

I take only taveren tug at the Pattern; never the Dark One.  The most involvement of the Dark One toward the Pattern seems to be to unravel it.

 

 

Moridin aiming his balefire toward Mashadar? possibly.

I first thought that Moridin did his balefire seconds after Rand.  From re-reading the scene, that still seems probable to me.

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I always took it that the Dark One's effect on the pattern only extends to stuff relating to his own forces most of the time. Like how Shaidar Haran's reality warping only seems to work on Darkfriends and Forsaken.

 

It's mentioned several times that it seems like the Dark One's influence over the pattern has been growing. in book 1 he's able to hold winter in place and then later on he can hold summer in stasis too.

 

I just assumed he could pull strings a little. Making sure Darkfriends happen to see certain things, making sure that certain attacks hit home. Not often, and nowhere near to the extent of Ta'veren, but nudges here and there as he gets stronger.

 

Like, say, making sure that the Balefire Mogheiden fired at Nynaeve actually hit the boat, rather than missing completely. Or making sure that the Seanchan found the male A'dam

 

 

The Dark One tugging at the Pattern so that Moridin's balefire could hit Rand's?  I am not so sure about that.

I think the Dark One either allows or disallows True Power use, and maybe also specific True Power weaves; not much beyond those.

the direction of True Power weaves seems doubtful to me.

 

 

 

When I said making sure the Balefire hits Rand's. I didn't mean moving the flows themselves, but making it more probable that Moridin would aim in that direction.

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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I've got no idea. I don't think it's mentioned at all. 

I can't see her with Lan, they don't have that type of relationship it seems to me. 

 

I suppose it's anyone's guess. 

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Well in New Spring she seemed interested in that guy who turned out to be a Darkfriend. They were travelling for a long time and must have met plenty of people in their travels. I find it hard to believe Moiraine would have taken the blue ajah thing quite that severely. 

 

Weren't there originally some plans to do more books after New Spring about Lan n Moiraines adventures hunting the dragon? 

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Yeah, there was going to be 2. One about Tam and how he found Rand. The other was going to be Lan and Moiraine and how they arrived in the Two Rivers in time. 

 

As far as I know, we don't know any of the details about those books - at least not if there are any sex scenes ;). 

 

I suppose it's up to the reader to interpret it how they will. 

 

I could see it either way. Moraine is pretty liberal with her role as AS, I don't think she would tow the line with that if the opportunity presented itself she would be fine. 

 

However, she is pretty damn driven, I can see her being solely focused on finding Rand and fighting the DO she doesn't have time for it. She would be travelling all around the world with Lan, unless she developed a relationship with him at some point, I can't see her randomly getting with some guy. 

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Well there aren't any sex scenes in WoT at all. This is from somebody whose read Ice n Fire with its "pink masts" and "Myrish swamps"; seriously that man deserves to burn in hell for those. But even Wars of Light n Shadow and the Crucible Trilogy was much more explicit scenes even if it wasn't ALL the time as it is with GRR Martin. Nothing wrong with WoT being more tongue in cheek about sex. Min and Aviendha outside as Elayne was doing Rand was quite funny; whilst the whole touchy feely stuff is still nice. Plus I still don't quite understand the concept of writing porn.

Edited by False Dragon1991

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Personally, I'm not a fan of explicit sex in books. I'm fine reading it, but I don't find it to be something that makes a book better. 

 

I mean, I'm not sure why a book would have to describe someone having sex unless it is a plot-point (in which case, fair enough.) it's not like the reader needs to know how it works. If they haven't figured that out by now, they probably shouldn't be reading an adult fiction book. 

 

WoT doesn't have "on-screen" sex, but some of the things that are implied are pretty saucy if you read between the lines. 

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Yeah I prefer if its more suggestive rather than explicit. Else it just sounds ridiculous and defeats the point. With Martin, I don't think its relevant to the plot to know that Dany "didn't know if he was inside her or if she was inside him"....

 

Yeah, there is a lot of very suggestive things and scenes in WoT. 

Edited by False Dragon1991

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Why did the Dark One spare Aginor? He's utterly useless in this time period. And he proves to be useless even AFTER coming back.

 

He doesn't save the more competent Darkfriends that the forsaken kill off. Like that guy in Fires Of Heaven who Lanfear skins alive.

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RJ did answer this. 

 

Basically, the DO is misinformed. He thinks the Forsaken are the greatest because they come from a more advanced time - and they are the ones he gets most of his info from, and while he doesn't rely solely on the Chosen for info, he is bias towards them. So he thinks that they are the best tools for the job and the 3rd Age people are not as good. Also, resurrecting someone isn't a walk in the park, he can't just pull up dead people at will. So he chooses what he thinks is the most effective. Aginor is pretty useless in context, but to the DO at the time, he was still useful. He did best Lews Therin once, and is the second most Powerful channeler behind Rand and Ishamael. Turns out he doesn't do much, but the potential was much more than a random Darkfriend that can't channel, the chances of the random Darkfriend being useful again besides the chances with Aginor pale in comparison. 

 

Nonetheless, he doesn't turn a blind eye to all of them. He does make special exceptions for those deemed worthy enough. Alviarin being the no.1 example so far. If she died, I would say the DO may bring her back. There are also other special people the DO gives his approval to, but IIRC, none have died, or if they have, they've been balefired etc.. so he is unable to bring them back. 

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RJ did answer this. 

 

Basically, the DO is misinformed. He thinks the Forsaken are the greatest because they come from a more advanced time - and they are the ones he gets most of his info from, and while he doesn't rely solely on the Chosen for info, he is bias towards them. So he thinks that they are the best tools for the job and the 3rd Age people are not as good. Also, resurrecting someone isn't a walk in the park, he can't just pull up dead people at will. So he chooses what he thinks is the most effective. Aginor is pretty useless in context, but to the DO at the time, he was still useful. He did best Lews Therin once, and is the second most Powerful channeler behind Rand and Ishamael. Turns out he doesn't do much, but the potential was much more than a random Darkfriend that can't channel, the chances of the random Darkfriend being useful again besides the chances with Aginor pale in comparison. 

 

Nonetheless, he doesn't turn a blind eye to all of them. He does make special exceptions for those deemed worthy enough. Alviarin being the no.1 example so far. If she died, I would say the DO may bring her back. There are also other special people the DO gives his approval to, but IIRC, none have died, or if they have, they've been balefired etc.. so he is unable to bring them back. 

Ok. The Dark One has been at this for the entirety of reality. It's kinda said that things go in a cycle. Something is built. There's a breaking. Then there's the last battle, and since reality is still around, that kinda implies that he's LOST all those times as well. Now, if he's lost every single time, why would he have a bias towards those from a more advanced time, since the people from after the various breakings from across history have been the ones who've beaten him and his forces every single time.

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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If a swordsman beat someone with a gun every time, would you chose to scrap the gun and try and wield a sword? I suppose some people might, but the DO isn't exactly a person.  

 

The DO sees people as tools, nothing more. The gun is a more effective tool that the sword for killing things, so the DO goes with the gun. 

 

Nonetheless, the DO has tried many methods. He doesn't always have to go with the more civilized. It's just that in this turning, he thinks it is the best strategy. 

 

Besides, they worked well in the AoL, the DO basically won that, if not for the last minute save by Lews Therin. So having efficient tools is not exactly what makes the DO win or lose. They help, but they are not necessary. 

 

As seen in the AoL example, even if the DO dominates the world, it doesn't necessarily mean he wins. He wants to destroy the Pattern, which is something his servants can't do. 

 

Edit: Still doesn't take away from the fact that Aginor fails. He was a scientist, not a warrior. But the DO just looks at how effective he COULD be. AoL knowledge with weaves and extreme power. I don't think personality even comes into the DO's "mind". 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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Where was the Pattern in the AoL? Was it taking a nap. How come it wasn't beating the hell out of the Chosen like it is now? Sammael is a brilliant strategist and managed to fend off Lews Therin on a few occasions?! That's... not really how it came off in the third age. Granted, he seemed pretty smart, but he also didn't bother to check to see if any chanelers were going through any of his OTHER gateways. Not the mark of someone considered a great military planner.

 

The pattern REALLY couldn't contrive a way to beat him in the AOL?

 

Or Mogheiden. A woman who was foiled by goddamn PIGEONS!!!

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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In the AoL, the Shadow was far, far stronger. 

 

Half of the world served the Shadow, humans and Shadowspawn. 

 

In the Third Age, there are a handful of Darkfriends and Shadowspawn (which have lessened, there were more hardcore Shadowspawn in the AoL but they don't have the tech to re-create them). 

 

Sammael basically tricked an entire kingdom into fighting the Dragon Reborn. 

 

In the AoL, half of the world knew they were fighting for the shadow and the Forsaken didn't need to hide. They had the bigger armies. 

 

Nonetheless, Lews Therin beat Sammael both on the field and personally. That's how he got his scar. 

 

That's why the Shadow doesn't just start killing people, because they don't have the resources to do what they did in the AoL. So they contrived the plan to manipulate the world into fighting each other while the Shadow sits back and waits for the DO to become powerful enough, building the Shadowspawn armies for the final strike. 

 

That's why the Shadowspawn are absent for a long time, the DO is holding them back so people forget the Shadow and fight amongst themselves. 

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1. The Dark One can only win when his prison is large enough. He can't win at any time. If his prison was large enough, he could destroy the Pattern no matter how many Dragon Reborn's came at him. 

 

So yeah, the Last Battle is one of those times when the DO's prison is open enough for him to win. I suspect the end of the AoL was another. Some people have theorized that the DO actually needs the Dragon to open the prison (either for the Shadow or for the Light) to win. 

 

So  the DO's plan is pretty solid overall, if risky. If he just converted the Dragon to the Shadow, the Pattern would come up with another person to fix it. But if he drives the Dragon to despair - still fighting for the Light - he may just help out the DO without meaning to. A very risky plan, as Mesaana thinks in LoC, but the potential payoff is huge. 

 

Also to note, the DO isn't really desperate either. As far as the DO is concerned, he literally has all the time in the world to break free. So he plays around trying different methods of winning, like a dog testing a cage. So he can try out ridiculous plans and shrug off the loss. 

 

I'm not saying that this time it's a waste of time and the DO is messing around, but it isn't the most efficient option for him either. He is trying something with high-stakes. If he wins, he wins big. 

 

2. In the Third Age with Illian. In the AoL he didn't need to trick people. He had millions of "Darkfriends" to fill his armies. 

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