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False Dragon1991

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  1. In Andor, its women first regardless of age. But in Cairhein, I guess it should go to the eldest which is clearly Galad from the Damodreds first marriage. So, what gives, how does Elayne have a better claim? Galad isn't a bastard and normally the first marriage has precedence over the second. Its kind of an illogical moment just because its more convenient to make it part of Elaynes story and because Galads story is about something else. So, RJ sort of acts like Cairhein has the same female only rules as Andor?
  2. I mean I thought it was strange that nobody really made the connection between the Seanchan (Raken/To-raken) apart from once when Rand sees a painter put wings on his flag. So, do you think this creature was around during the Age of Legends and thats where the image is taken from? With the raken/toraken being related to it? Or is it just simply the artist of Lews Therins flag took the wings off for artistic reasons (magic makes it fly not wings?) off a raken which he used as a point of reference?
  3. So the DO is part of the pattern? If the wheel is meant to balance out good and evil; and the DO is a product of said evil then that seems to contradict the notion he isn't part of the Universal Order. Wouldn't killing the DO just mean all those evil actions would eventually feed the birth of a new evil god ala Slannesh from 40k? The DO isn't part of the pattern, so I don't see how killing him, or even burning him from existence could touch the pattern since he isn't part of it. So nothing Rand does to the DO should affect the Pattern. Unless this suggests that Rand was slightly insane and thinking of creating utopia since he had the chance to alter the pattern. Even though this would wipe the current reality from existence and kill all his friends. I assumed he was just showing visions to the DO of why he is wrong to be a nihilist. Not proposing that he would actually change the world to his vision. But I still don't see how killing him should equate to fundamentally changing part of the pattern.
  4. A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern. To me this really undermined the whole premise and resolution of their confrontation.
  5. OP - Yes and No. I felt that just the sheer mental image of Mashadar pouring suddenly down into the valley and drowning these two vast armies as this unstoppable force was a very strong image. I suppose the threat wasn't embellished enough but if Matt hadn't stopped him then quite simply nothing would and he could well have killed both Rand n the Dark One. Plus, he technically did kill Matt. Just fresh from Egwenes death and having won the great battle it was not inconceivable to me that he might die with his role having been fulfilled. Especially since Perrin who had a grudge against Fain was also there and might have done the deed (red herring on the reveal about his parents BTW) But Yes, I do agree with a lot of what others say. A longer passage could have done it justice. Or, he should have been killed as a threat long before. Frankly I found him a bit too much of a golem character and struggled to take him seriously for most of the series. But the idea of him being this other cthulu monster/force of nature to the DO was a neat idea.
  6. Wow, I am just gonna put down some of my initial thoughts on the book. There was a lot of good here and some bad. On the whole a satisfying end to the series. -I was STUNNED that Egwene died. I mean, really, I actually couldn't believe she was dead. Nobody dies for 13 books and then the biggest female character dies? Especially since she was a character who most strongly thought towards the future, strengthening the White Tower, reaching out to other groups of channelers, blowing away the cobwebs of the old and her promise to Tuon that she intended to live to see their evil empire fall. Especially in the context of Rand debate with the Dark One over nihilism that was a very powerful moment. Egwene represented promise and hope for the future. Really, GRRM has nothing on that. -The other deaths also had similar effect. I liked Gawyn in this moment where he confessed his failings and took it on himself. Siun as well was another shock. Bryne and the Bashere died offscreen wasn't good. -Really did not like how they had Nynaeve as a wielder of Callandor. I can more or less live with Moiraines limited role but if the idea was that Rand would go with women who have had a formative role on him then this should have been Cadsuane. I really think Nynaeve going with Lan and perhaps saving him at one point as well as bonding with her new Malkieri subjects (she is a Queen now) would have been better. Especially since her testing emphasised that she would chose Lan over being an Aes Sedai. Just having her stand there and give herbs to Alanna was very unsatisfying. Yes, technically she and Moiraine trapped Moridin and defeated the DO. But I would have preferred a more prominent role. -However I disliked how we have four successive people have a crack at Demandred. it does get a little silly and that with hundreds of thousands on the battlefield Galad and Lan literally just rode up him. They were all badass. Galad spitting at the forsakens feet was a nice touch. Also, Lans motivation for taking it on himself to charge up made no sense. I really wanted him to think that he was doing it because Egwene had died and it just felt like he didn't have a motivation beyond general badassery for being the one to take down Demandred. -Incidentally. I understand that most of the Demandred material was put into its own novella. But its a little strange how he is the MAIN villain in this whilst other much more established villains like Moridin, Fain and even the Dark One; are given pretty anti-climatic ends or don't get to do much. Its especially testing when characters who clearly are from that story appear or worse die and when Demandred reflects on how he has changed from his time in Shara. -A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern. -Again, I understand that there were originally going to be outrigger books that would deal with Perrin and Matt. But I felt there was a huge lack of resolution with the Seanchan and even with what Faile becoming Queen of Saldea would mean. Indeed the epilogue was on the whole very lacking and very brief considering the scale of the series. -Perrins duel with Slayer went on FAR too long. It also undercut his arc as developing into and embracing his role as a leader of men. I get that command is Matts moment. But, he kinda leaves his army for most of the story. -I have no idea what Matt was doing or how he could have predicted any of that happening at the right time. Plus, I don't understand how Matt could bottleneck the Sharans with their ability to travel and it was only at the very end that he thought to do this with the Seanchan to trap the enemy. -lol Min is the Pope. :D -I SOOO wanted to see Hawkwing talk to Tuon. :D That would have been hilarious and it never gets mentioned after. :( -Would have been neat to have Mayene described. Berelains constant presence peaked my interest. -Graendal being made Gaishan by her own compulsion was lol worthy as well. -Moghedian is a strange loose end to leave. Ironic that the spider truly did outlast them all. -Personally I thought there was nothing wrong with Lanfear redeeming herself in the end. In fact its strange that this is never done with any of the Forsaken in general. Killing her felt a little too harsh since she was IMO the most reasonable of the Forsaken or that she could have been clever enough to escape.
  7. Then why was it several books long if it was just to set us into a false sense of security before Caemlyns fall? If its point was to be too easy going for Elayne whilst the real threat gets ready then it doesn't require vast embellishment.
  8. I wouldn't say gritty realism. But it did come across as though her victory was inevitable and theres a distinct lack of hurdles to cross in her arc. We get a few attacks by the black ajah where they capture Elayne but after all the times this has been done it would take quite a lot to convince me that she is going to be in true danger. Actually the same goes for Dany, the attempts on her life by assasians, angry dothraki and everything else are obviously not going to kill her; because its been done so many times. Also, ASOIAF is NOT realistic where everyone is either a nihilist, a sadist, insane and view normal standards of humanity as weakness. Also, Elaynes actual enemies aren't really a threat. Despite one battle sequence where they attack the gates to remind us of their presence they really can't affect her. Its also offset by the fact that her position seems to get stronger throughout her arc without her actually doing anything. Houses declare for her, important lords decide they like her and the old Queensguard rejoin her; all aided by the kinswomen n seafolk gateways. It didn't feel like they were really putting the pressure on Elayne and the POVs from their perspective (as is often the case in WoT) only serves to make them seem less of a threat and incompetent.
  9. I mean she was working with Verin for a long time in the Two Rivers n we later learn her allegience and the advantage of bonding Rand to learn where he is would have been a huge advantage. Plus, it would explain her odd behaviour when linked to the dragon.
  10. I'm unsure what you are looking for. She has made plenty of mistakes, but has recovered from them. If she had made a total mess of things, she would have been de-throned and killed. Her story is one of unifying Andor. She hits many speed bumps along the way and makes several mistakes, but ultimately comes out as Queen. So in that sense, no, she doesn't make any grievous errors, because she can't afford to. Unless you are saying she should have been killed, she acted how a Queen needs to act to keep her throne. Well, usually victory should come at some great cost, the difficulties should be considerable and come across as challenging. Plus, some of the heroes actions simply shouldn't work or backfire. You would expect important people or allies she cares about to die. I understand that we need Elayne to have an army and many people alive for the Last Battle. However that does come at the expense of her cause being in serious danger; chiefly because her real enemy is largely absent in the shadows and doesn't kill her in the two times they have her at their mercy. Given how many times the supergirls have been captured and escaped during the series I am not going to believe that Elayne is going to die. So, I would have expected her to have lost people around her and for her forces to have taken major damage securing Andor (not be strengthened exponentially by it). Plus, frankly, she could have lost Rands children. Incidentally I read that chapter and I don't see how Elayne can be at fault. She is in her palace going to talk to a shielded black ajah, surrounded by her guards and kinswomen. That is the safest place she could possibly be. The simple fact that the Black Ajah and Mellar could just materialise out of thin air really can't be held against Elayne. I could get if she went to a den of black ajah pretending to be a forsaken. But in those circumstances theres no reason to assume that there is a great personal risk, any more than just talking to the prisoner normally. I wouldn't say that Elayne faces a major challenge or setback until the final book. Same goes for Egwene. In fact the difference in situation is huge compared to how their arc went for most of the novel.
  11. I still fail to see how it could have altered her circumstances enough to be a great failure. She is Queen of Andor and Cairhein. She resolves all of the disunity and discord in these countries and unites them for the Last Battle. Her circumstances aren't changed and her victory is still virtually total by the end of ToM. I didn't read that scene but the repercussions seem non-existent. All that came from it is that Elayne realizes that Birgitte was right to watch over her and that she should be more cautious. Though TBH, her behavior and role in MoL seems to make even that resolution seem tenuous at best.
  12. Well then, yeah, thats not really a failure of her as a leader its just a slip up to make her realise Birgitte was in the right and resolve that little sub plot. This would be after she is secure as Queen then? Don't know how she avoided a stabbing affecting her children either, with healing this just leaves her walking away unscathed. ps- So this is another instance where Elayne being able to blow people up with her mind is ignored then? How no plucky darkfriend never decided to just stab Ishmael or Lanfear for gain is beyond me if its this easy to attack a strong channeler.
  13. It happens A LOT in this series. Especially to the supergirls who are beyond useless at this. Despite us knowing that the servants of shadow are supposedly ruthless killers without scruple none of them will ever just slit the throat of any of our main character. Why take the risk and time of corrupting them? Plus in later books where the likes of Elayne are clearly enemies of the shadow they still refuse to just kill Elayne when they have her at her mercy. To me, especially given the sheer number of instances where this happens, it is really silly and unrealistic. If your opponents are supposed to be ruthless and void of humanity then they should have no qualms in murdering unarmed prisoners. Yet the supergirls repeatedly walk away from captivity without injury or anything missing? What happened to being caught by the shadow being a fate worse than death itself?
  14. Impersonating a forsaken got her stabbed and a fox head medallion lost. When was that? In Caemlyn? Was that when the Black Ajah captured her? Though that does remind me of the knife assasians in the throne room to gain her trust where another reason is provided why she can't channel. Yeah, the plot does make out that Elayne should take Birgittes advice about personal safety seriously. Though since she comes out of every captivity uninjured due to healing and her enemies not just cutting her throat when the opportunity presents itself and never learns this lesson about personal unnecessary risk I don't really see the point of that sub plot. So thats more about the personal relationship between them rather than a failing of Elayne which gives her enemies a huge advantage over her.
  15. She didn't bring Elenia and Naean to the capital through Gateway, which allowed Arymilla to capture them and increase her army and political support by a lot. She gets more troops for an army which can't besiege a city where the enemy ship all the supplies it wants in? Political support only matters if Elayne would actually step down if another candidate got enough votes to be made a Queen; else it comes down to a military confrontation. Arymilla can't affect things or people inside the capitol so her political support doesn't increase her position in the siege. Basically this makes no real or significant impact to the course of events and its a fairly minor mistake. It just means X number of troops have joined an army X numbers strong and are able to do what they've already been doing unsuccessfully for several books.Not really a game changer. I don't even remember that happening or who Elenia and Naean are. Its also totally countered by Elayne getting a bigger army all the time with her travelling and support from the old queens guard and other houses as well as recruitment of levies. So its a mistake that doesn't really change anything in the plot. Also, that sounds more like an oversight than a mistake. Something she could not have foreseen. Plus, I can't see why she wouldn't use a gateway anyway. Sounds very contrived that she wouldn't. IMO its just to provide some imagined setback and make it seem like she is facing difficulties when really her situation stays the same. Any other mistakes? Big ones which cause big shifts in her arc?
  16. What are those intricacies and nuance exactly? List a single mistake Elayne makes that doesn't turn out for the better? I have asked this several times but nobody seems to have an ansawr because she doesn't make any. @Suttree. Don't be cute. My response acknowledges you were right about the detail of the borderlanders being able to purchase the vast stocks of food available in Andor without resorting to pillage. It does not change my general opinion about Elaynes arc being a load of mary sue nonesense. Your point only clarifies that because it is one of several instances in which the plot creates circumstances which make her look good and smart. You don't seem to get that the point of a discussion is that two people have a position and they go back and forth with different evidence and rapidly evolving takes on the situation. What, you expect that with one line I should accept Elaynes arc is perfect OMG best thing evaz and stop commenting on the thread? Thats just silly and not a discussion. You want to hear me say you're right? Is that it? Whatever. You are right about the thing about channeling being a political disaster. Don't know why I brought it up from another thread. Don't care about it in Elaynes arc. Don't care to talk about that issue in Elaynes story either. Just part of a general trend in the series that annoys me and not particular to her arc.
  17. I don't like a series which misleads you into thinking the female channelers are gonna at some point be as badass as Moiraine and then spends 13 books of them avoiding any fighting with the OP.
  18. List one mistake that Elayne does in her arc that doesn't turn out for the better? Wait, wasn't she captured...no, that just let her capture all the Black Ajah and put her cavalry right behind the rebel army....
  19. I don't. Beslan has no problem with the Seanchan using channelers and the One Power to kill; nor do any of their other allies. If people object so vehemently to the idea of women using the power to kill then why does nobody have a problem with them doing it more than anyone else. People don't seem to mind it at all. Plus, I am sorry, but if they accept the dragon having an army of men who can channel who he uses as weapons on his enemies then I fail to see how Elayne doing so would cause a fateful loss of respect for the WT; nor do I believe that would happen in the story. When has the reputation of these characters because of their actions ever mattered? Aes Sedai are already despised supposedly and nothing assauges that belief. Weighing the opinions of people who already hate you against alleviating the suffering of people in Caemlyn should have been an issue for Elayne. But no,instead she is handed a plot device to bring in food from Tear and so its never a problem. List one mistake that Elayne makes in her arc that doesn't turn out for the better?
  20. Discussions move on. What do you mean goal posts? I say its silly that Elayne bringing in the borderlanders would have killed thousands because they would have had to pillage the land to feed themselves. You point out there is a line saying they bought their food. I say thats ridiculous and a contrivence of the plot to not make Elayne look bad so that she can dismiss the childish protests of her advisors. In the real world, an army that big would have been like a plague of locusts and pushed an already weary land into famine. Hence, its still about the original point of Elaynes arc being dumb and unrealistic and therefore bad. Don't be cute.
  21. I frankly don't see why there was a need to make Elayne and Aviendha a channeler, or to put such emphasis on Nynaeve n Egwene being powerful channelers. With the example of Moiraine this clearly set me down a wrong line of thinking. I assumed this meant they would all come into their own and get to fight like Moiraine. Instead, they do just about everything other than channeling and it becomes more a half mentioned quirk than anything else. Is there any reason Aviendha couldn't have been a normal non-channeler Wise One or remained a Maiden of the Spear? If her arc doesn't involve her being a channeler then why make her one and much less a supposedly powerful one? Same with Elayne. If her main deal is to be a leader and rule Andor then why bother making her a channeler and much less a supposedly very strong one? Nynaeve I can understand to a degree but theres no reason this can't just be a talent for healing. It would barely have changed their arcs for most of the series.
  22. You only sell food if you have a surplus and people are willing to sell. Given that there was a much longer winter and the impact of the dark ones touch there really shouldn't be any crops to feed a force of 100,000 men from the surplus. If theres going to be a famine, local farmers do not sell their produce. In fact it was physically impossible for any army before the modern era to not live off the land (much less one 100,000 strong). So the author having a polite purchase of produce by this army as it peacefully moves through Elaynes country is absurd. It is a plot device to make her seem smart when in fact what she just did should have gotton thousands of people killed and driven many times that into famine. An army that size should and would strip the land bare at the very least. This is why her arc is bad, she never puts a foot wrong and faces mistakes. To make a comparison to Song of Ice and Fire. Danys inaction and her slaver crusade directly leads to the destruction of Astapor and the death of 250,000 people. So, to me, Elaynes arcs comes across as her just winning and the plot providing circumstances that make her seem oh so so smart with all the possible negative consequences of her actions not even considered or airbrushed. Also, how is use of the OP on her subjects worse than hacking them up with bits of metal or shooting them full of holes until they bleed to death? I really don't get fantasy writers obsession with equating use of nuclear and chemical weapons to use of magic. Its just another tool, why would it be viewed any differently? Elayne isn't killing defenceless civilians, she is fighting people intent on killing her and sacking Caemlyn.
  23. They could not have fed 100,000 soldiers and all their followers hundreds of miles from their homeland without resorting to living off the land in a medieval setting. This involves looting, stealing and raping and deaths as people try to keep what they have. Elayne doesn't even keep this a secret (in the real world people would have found out that Elayne was there of course; anyone in contact with the borderlanders would have learned) and cockily tells her allies she did this... Even if it didn't. She twisted a foreign army into invading. How does that not piss off the nationalistic Andorans or cause her followers to question her? Frankly, she should have ended up like Cersei given some of her "smart" decisions.
  24. Her personal relations with the people she interacted with were all far too cordial, most of the high seats just went "shez awesome" and the others she militarily defeated. A few others she just went "Last Battle" and they caved anyway. That is not an interesting political story. Its a mary sue being handed success after success by the plot. How does she get away with manipulating an army into entering Andor (pillaging, looting and ravaging the land for fodder BTW which could kill hundreds and make thousands homeless) and then tells people that she has done this? Does this cause high seats to abandon her and call her a traitor? No. Because this is apparently a "smart" move and we are meant to applaud Elayne for this. To be frank I was often reminded of Cersei in A Feast for Crows and how she thinks she is being awesome and smart when really she is being stupid and grasping; making everything worse by her efforts. Only, in Randland, this sort of thing works... I don't see how the people of Caemlyn would view Elayne using her power to break the siege, let food flow into the city again, bring peace and prevent the city being sacked by the rebel army as a bad thing. I wouldn't view that as a bad thing. There is a difference between being trained and being an actual Aes Sedai loyal to the order and the amyrlin. There is not even a whif of suspicion that she is an Aes Sedai pawn. Even though she has dozens of women who channel in the city with her.
  25. OP Personally I never felt Elayne was in serious danger or faced with a major challenge or threat. Strange, considering she starts off with no army and her foes lay siege to the city. However, her opponents come across as incompetent, ironically, by the very chapters meant to tell us who they actually are. I also struggle to understand what her arc was about. Shes already a strong and capable leader who has been tutored. She has no real lessons to learn. She is able to ignore all of the hardships or obstacles she has by use of travelling to bring in troops who are loyal to her (dues ex machina) and foodstuffs to resolve the siege. We also see the complete lack of attention to things we have been told should be an issue. Egwene is an Aes Sedai; why does this not cause problems in the streets? The intrigue is very weak because she has no enemies on the city, people rapidly fall in line behind Elayne and her enemies are outside; doing nothing. Theres also this plot about using the borderlanders which goes nowhere. Finally theres the pointless Black Ajah thread where Elayne gets herself captured (AGAIN) and needs to be rescued (AGAIN!). Finally her forces win easily and her rivals surrender. Elayne never puts a foot wrong, even when she does things that should rightly antagonise people, like giving away Andoran land to the Sea Folk and the Cairhenian. The result is that her story is stupid, boring and you are basically just waiting for her to win in the most anti-climatic fashion. This was supposed to prove her as a leader and a master of the game. How? Theres no serious challenge or obstacle for her to overcome and certainly no personal daemons. Such a story does not need to be as long as it does. Also, it is hard to take the situation seriously when Elayne could just single-handedly destroy her opponents with the OP (she even thinks this). But apparently the people are fine with an Aes Sedai queen but object to her using her power to defend them. Obviously.
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