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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

False Dragon1991

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  1. In Andor, its women first regardless of age. But in Cairhein, I guess it should go to the eldest which is clearly Galad from the Damodreds first marriage. So, what gives, how does Elayne have a better claim? Galad isn't a bastard and normally the first marriage has precedence over the second. Its kind of an illogical moment just because its more convenient to make it part of Elaynes story and because Galads story is about something else. So, RJ sort of acts like Cairhein has the same female only rules as Andor?
  2. I mean I thought it was strange that nobody really made the connection between the Seanchan (Raken/To-raken) apart from once when Rand sees a painter put wings on his flag. So, do you think this creature was around during the Age of Legends and thats where the image is taken from? With the raken/toraken being related to it? Or is it just simply the artist of Lews Therins flag took the wings off for artistic reasons (magic makes it fly not wings?) off a raken which he used as a point of reference?
  3. So the DO is part of the pattern? If the wheel is meant to balance out good and evil; and the DO is a product of said evil then that seems to contradict the notion he isn't part of the Universal Order. Wouldn't killing the DO just mean all those evil actions would eventually feed the birth of a new evil god ala Slannesh from 40k? The DO isn't part of the pattern, so I don't see how killing him, or even burning him from existence could touch the pattern since he isn't part of it. So nothing Rand does to the DO should affect the Pattern. Unless this suggests that Rand was slightly insane and thinking of creating utopia since he had the chance to alter the pattern. Even though this would wipe the current reality from existence and kill all his friends. I assumed he was just showing visions to the DO of why he is wrong to be a nihilist. Not proposing that he would actually change the world to his vision. But I still don't see how killing him should equate to fundamentally changing part of the pattern.
  4. A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern. To me this really undermined the whole premise and resolution of their confrontation.
  5. OP - Yes and No. I felt that just the sheer mental image of Mashadar pouring suddenly down into the valley and drowning these two vast armies as this unstoppable force was a very strong image. I suppose the threat wasn't embellished enough but if Matt hadn't stopped him then quite simply nothing would and he could well have killed both Rand n the Dark One. Plus, he technically did kill Matt. Just fresh from Egwenes death and having won the great battle it was not inconceivable to me that he might die with his role having been fulfilled. Especially since Perrin who had a grudge against Fain was also there and might have done the deed (red herring on the reveal about his parents BTW) But Yes, I do agree with a lot of what others say. A longer passage could have done it justice. Or, he should have been killed as a threat long before. Frankly I found him a bit too much of a golem character and struggled to take him seriously for most of the series. But the idea of him being this other cthulu monster/force of nature to the DO was a neat idea.
  6. Wow, I am just gonna put down some of my initial thoughts on the book. There was a lot of good here and some bad. On the whole a satisfying end to the series. -I was STUNNED that Egwene died. I mean, really, I actually couldn't believe she was dead. Nobody dies for 13 books and then the biggest female character dies? Especially since she was a character who most strongly thought towards the future, strengthening the White Tower, reaching out to other groups of channelers, blowing away the cobwebs of the old and her promise to Tuon that she intended to live to see their evil empire fall. Especially in the context of Rand debate with the Dark One over nihilism that was a very powerful moment. Egwene represented promise and hope for the future. Really, GRRM has nothing on that. -The other deaths also had similar effect. I liked Gawyn in this moment where he confessed his failings and took it on himself. Siun as well was another shock. Bryne and the Bashere died offscreen wasn't good. -Really did not like how they had Nynaeve as a wielder of Callandor. I can more or less live with Moiraines limited role but if the idea was that Rand would go with women who have had a formative role on him then this should have been Cadsuane. I really think Nynaeve going with Lan and perhaps saving him at one point as well as bonding with her new Malkieri subjects (she is a Queen now) would have been better. Especially since her testing emphasised that she would chose Lan over being an Aes Sedai. Just having her stand there and give herbs to Alanna was very unsatisfying. Yes, technically she and Moiraine trapped Moridin and defeated the DO. But I would have preferred a more prominent role. -However I disliked how we have four successive people have a crack at Demandred. it does get a little silly and that with hundreds of thousands on the battlefield Galad and Lan literally just rode up him. They were all badass. Galad spitting at the forsakens feet was a nice touch. Also, Lans motivation for taking it on himself to charge up made no sense. I really wanted him to think that he was doing it because Egwene had died and it just felt like he didn't have a motivation beyond general badassery for being the one to take down Demandred. -Incidentally. I understand that most of the Demandred material was put into its own novella. But its a little strange how he is the MAIN villain in this whilst other much more established villains like Moridin, Fain and even the Dark One; are given pretty anti-climatic ends or don't get to do much. Its especially testing when characters who clearly are from that story appear or worse die and when Demandred reflects on how he has changed from his time in Shara. -A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern. -Again, I understand that there were originally going to be outrigger books that would deal with Perrin and Matt. But I felt there was a huge lack of resolution with the Seanchan and even with what Faile becoming Queen of Saldea would mean. Indeed the epilogue was on the whole very lacking and very brief considering the scale of the series. -Perrins duel with Slayer went on FAR too long. It also undercut his arc as developing into and embracing his role as a leader of men. I get that command is Matts moment. But, he kinda leaves his army for most of the story. -I have no idea what Matt was doing or how he could have predicted any of that happening at the right time. Plus, I don't understand how Matt could bottleneck the Sharans with their ability to travel and it was only at the very end that he thought to do this with the Seanchan to trap the enemy. -lol Min is the Pope. :D -I SOOO wanted to see Hawkwing talk to Tuon. :D That would have been hilarious and it never gets mentioned after. :( -Would have been neat to have Mayene described. Berelains constant presence peaked my interest. -Graendal being made Gaishan by her own compulsion was lol worthy as well. -Moghedian is a strange loose end to leave. Ironic that the spider truly did outlast them all. -Personally I thought there was nothing wrong with Lanfear redeeming herself in the end. In fact its strange that this is never done with any of the Forsaken in general. Killing her felt a little too harsh since she was IMO the most reasonable of the Forsaken or that she could have been clever enough to escape.
  7. Then why was it several books long if it was just to set us into a false sense of security before Caemlyns fall? If its point was to be too easy going for Elayne whilst the real threat gets ready then it doesn't require vast embellishment.
  8. I wouldn't say gritty realism. But it did come across as though her victory was inevitable and theres a distinct lack of hurdles to cross in her arc. We get a few attacks by the black ajah where they capture Elayne but after all the times this has been done it would take quite a lot to convince me that she is going to be in true danger. Actually the same goes for Dany, the attempts on her life by assasians, angry dothraki and everything else are obviously not going to kill her; because its been done so many times. Also, ASOIAF is NOT realistic where everyone is either a nihilist, a sadist, insane and view normal standards of humanity as weakness. Also, Elaynes actual enemies aren't really a threat. Despite one battle sequence where they attack the gates to remind us of their presence they really can't affect her. Its also offset by the fact that her position seems to get stronger throughout her arc without her actually doing anything. Houses declare for her, important lords decide they like her and the old Queensguard rejoin her; all aided by the kinswomen n seafolk gateways. It didn't feel like they were really putting the pressure on Elayne and the POVs from their perspective (as is often the case in WoT) only serves to make them seem less of a threat and incompetent.
  9. I mean she was working with Verin for a long time in the Two Rivers n we later learn her allegience and the advantage of bonding Rand to learn where he is would have been a huge advantage. Plus, it would explain her odd behaviour when linked to the dragon.
  10. I'm unsure what you are looking for. She has made plenty of mistakes, but has recovered from them. If she had made a total mess of things, she would have been de-throned and killed. Her story is one of unifying Andor. She hits many speed bumps along the way and makes several mistakes, but ultimately comes out as Queen. So in that sense, no, she doesn't make any grievous errors, because she can't afford to. Unless you are saying she should have been killed, she acted how a Queen needs to act to keep her throne. Well, usually victory should come at some great cost, the difficulties should be considerable and come across as challenging. Plus, some of the heroes actions simply shouldn't work or backfire. You would expect important people or allies she cares about to die. I understand that we need Elayne to have an army and many people alive for the Last Battle. However that does come at the expense of her cause being in serious danger; chiefly because her real enemy is largely absent in the shadows and doesn't kill her in the two times they have her at their mercy. Given how many times the supergirls have been captured and escaped during the series I am not going to believe that Elayne is going to die. So, I would have expected her to have lost people around her and for her forces to have taken major damage securing Andor (not be strengthened exponentially by it). Plus, frankly, she could have lost Rands children. Incidentally I read that chapter and I don't see how Elayne can be at fault. She is in her palace going to talk to a shielded black ajah, surrounded by her guards and kinswomen. That is the safest place she could possibly be. The simple fact that the Black Ajah and Mellar could just materialise out of thin air really can't be held against Elayne. I could get if she went to a den of black ajah pretending to be a forsaken. But in those circumstances theres no reason to assume that there is a great personal risk, any more than just talking to the prisoner normally. I wouldn't say that Elayne faces a major challenge or setback until the final book. Same goes for Egwene. In fact the difference in situation is huge compared to how their arc went for most of the novel.
  11. I still fail to see how it could have altered her circumstances enough to be a great failure. She is Queen of Andor and Cairhein. She resolves all of the disunity and discord in these countries and unites them for the Last Battle. Her circumstances aren't changed and her victory is still virtually total by the end of ToM. I didn't read that scene but the repercussions seem non-existent. All that came from it is that Elayne realizes that Birgitte was right to watch over her and that she should be more cautious. Though TBH, her behavior and role in MoL seems to make even that resolution seem tenuous at best.
  12. Well then, yeah, thats not really a failure of her as a leader its just a slip up to make her realise Birgitte was in the right and resolve that little sub plot. This would be after she is secure as Queen then? Don't know how she avoided a stabbing affecting her children either, with healing this just leaves her walking away unscathed. ps- So this is another instance where Elayne being able to blow people up with her mind is ignored then? How no plucky darkfriend never decided to just stab Ishmael or Lanfear for gain is beyond me if its this easy to attack a strong channeler.
  13. It happens A LOT in this series. Especially to the supergirls who are beyond useless at this. Despite us knowing that the servants of shadow are supposedly ruthless killers without scruple none of them will ever just slit the throat of any of our main character. Why take the risk and time of corrupting them? Plus in later books where the likes of Elayne are clearly enemies of the shadow they still refuse to just kill Elayne when they have her at her mercy. To me, especially given the sheer number of instances where this happens, it is really silly and unrealistic. If your opponents are supposed to be ruthless and void of humanity then they should have no qualms in murdering unarmed prisoners. Yet the supergirls repeatedly walk away from captivity without injury or anything missing? What happened to being caught by the shadow being a fate worse than death itself?
  14. Impersonating a forsaken got her stabbed and a fox head medallion lost. When was that? In Caemlyn? Was that when the Black Ajah captured her? Though that does remind me of the knife assasians in the throne room to gain her trust where another reason is provided why she can't channel. Yeah, the plot does make out that Elayne should take Birgittes advice about personal safety seriously. Though since she comes out of every captivity uninjured due to healing and her enemies not just cutting her throat when the opportunity presents itself and never learns this lesson about personal unnecessary risk I don't really see the point of that sub plot. So thats more about the personal relationship between them rather than a failing of Elayne which gives her enemies a huge advantage over her.
  15. She didn't bring Elenia and Naean to the capital through Gateway, which allowed Arymilla to capture them and increase her army and political support by a lot. She gets more troops for an army which can't besiege a city where the enemy ship all the supplies it wants in? Political support only matters if Elayne would actually step down if another candidate got enough votes to be made a Queen; else it comes down to a military confrontation. Arymilla can't affect things or people inside the capitol so her political support doesn't increase her position in the siege. Basically this makes no real or significant impact to the course of events and its a fairly minor mistake. It just means X number of troops have joined an army X numbers strong and are able to do what they've already been doing unsuccessfully for several books.Not really a game changer. I don't even remember that happening or who Elenia and Naean are. Its also totally countered by Elayne getting a bigger army all the time with her travelling and support from the old queens guard and other houses as well as recruitment of levies. So its a mistake that doesn't really change anything in the plot. Also, that sounds more like an oversight than a mistake. Something she could not have foreseen. Plus, I can't see why she wouldn't use a gateway anyway. Sounds very contrived that she wouldn't. IMO its just to provide some imagined setback and make it seem like she is facing difficulties when really her situation stays the same. Any other mistakes? Big ones which cause big shifts in her arc?
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