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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

False Dragon1991

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  1. I just wanted to talk about the scene in Clash of Kings from a re-read where Jorah gives Dany the peach in the city of bones. Now, this is described as "small" and "over-ripe": however when Dany tastes it its so sweet it "almost makes her cry". Anyway I think there is actually a lot of symbolism and maybe a bit of foreshadowing. The other time a peach comes up in Clash of Kings is the prominent scene between Renly and Stannis. He takes it out and bites it in front of Stannis. He says this represents the richs, wealth and power of the Reach. So there is a clear correlation between land/power and the fruit. Given that in the scene with Dany Jorah goes on to talk about Bear Island as a poor impoverished place and why his first wife left him over money this implies that the peach is a metaphor for Jorahs social status as its a small peach. Obviously relative to Daenerys who is Queen he is far below her in station and this is a topic which comes up as he discusses his wife Lynesse. In addition, the word "over-ripe", suggests something left for too long and this could refer to Jorah being older than Daenerys. If we then take the peach to be Jorah himself then the fact that Dany is thinking initially of appearances could be referring to her thinking that she can't imagine enjoying having sex with Jorah at all. Indeed in that chapter she does exactly this in pretty blunt terms! So I think that it suggests that Dany would actually enjoy having sex with Jorah and is letting appearances and issues of status get in the way just as she did with thinking she wouldn't enjoy eating a small over-ripe peach. It is meant to say that she is actually mistaken in her assumption she wouldn't enjoy it. Do you think there is a bit of symbolism and foreshadowing going on here?
  2. In Andor, its women first regardless of age. But in Cairhein, I guess it should go to the eldest which is clearly Galad from the Damodreds first marriage. So, what gives, how does Elayne have a better claim? Galad isn't a bastard and normally the first marriage has precedence over the second. Its kind of an illogical moment just because its more convenient to make it part of Elaynes story and because Galads story is about something else. So, RJ sort of acts like Cairhein has the same female only rules as Andor?
  3. True but Robert was King for a similar amount f time and Stannis was a member of his council for just as long. So he would have had similar experience to Tywin. . Plus, he has suggested things not that different from Tywins dealing with the Tyrells. He wanted Jon to be a Lord in the North to get the north on side because he knew they would follow Eddards son. This is also patronage and ties John to him. He also accepts that he might let one of his men marry this woman and acquire all of her lands if he performs this very important service to him. So Stannis understands patronage and rewarding his allies just the same as Tywin. The only difference to me is that Tywin buys his support and gets away with it despite supposedly having a worse reputation than Stannis. Also, you can't just always buy your friends and allies. There has to be some measure of personal trust and relationships established. This is especially important because Stannis often has it held against him that he is abrasive, cold and didn't want friends; contrasted to charismatic and social Renly. Tywin, as I remarked from his scenes on the show, he insults every single person he meets. Surely that would make him unsuited for court life in of itself where relationships and alliances are very much personal affairs where charisma is essential. There just seems to be a double standard at work. Oh I really liked this article explaining why Jorah isn't a "nice guy". I especially liked the bit where he says that your typical nice guy does girly things to ingratiate themselves and whines about girls liking big brutish thugs; when Jorah is a big brutish thug. Although personally I think hes more like Danys Darth Vadar. It also stresses their friendship which I think a lot of people forget since they tend to focus on him being in love with Dany as his sole motivation from the beginning of the series for everything hes done. http://drogontheburninator.tumblr.com/post/40293824435/why-jorah-mormont-is-not-a-nice-guy BTW, I really think Varys and Littlefinger are just ridiculous. The things they get away with in this series and fact that they haven't made a single slip-up or mistake is kind of silly. Its just Martin getting these two uber clever guys who are so clever that they run rings around everyone and are gonna get huge armies at the end. Considering most of this is off-screen and just renders other characters struggles to achieve this a little mute. ie Littlefinger being Lord of the Vale at the end of ASOS with its army. Worse, he gets away with murdering Lisa Arryn by convincing an innocent man to testify against himself... Then we have Varys, who obviously has a trap door right up to Tywins quarters so that he can let Tyrion murder the most powerful man in the Kingdom instantly (coz seriously, he would know what was going through dwarfs head and suggested where the tunnel led in the first place). Suffice to say the level of stupidity regarding those two characters goes ridiculous in ADWD. I don't see what point Martin wants to make other than "OMG plotters are so awesome, nobody can touch these 2 clever men mwhahaha". Well, no, they should not be getting away with these things and the amount of plot armor they have is insane. How has nobody ratted out the fact that Littlefinger was borrowing huge sums from Braavos the crown could neverpay back and wasn't a genius accountant? Surely other people handle documents and one of them could rat him out; even by accident? Its just silly and I fear Martin is going to continue down this road going forward with those two. They have not slipped up once between them. Even Tywin Lannister lost a few battles and was at serious risk of losing. Those two, never.
  4. One thing I don't get is how Westeros behaves completely differently towards Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon. Both men are portrayed as ruthless and have committed atrocities. Tywin murders the Targ children and wipes out the Castameres. Stannis is "utterly without mercy". Both have fought in wars and should have won glory. Stannis held Storms End against the Tyrells. Tywin cowed the troublesome bannermen of the Westerlands. Both are shown as arrogant, abrasive and outright disrespectful towards their subordinates and those around them. On the TV show Tywin Lannister has quite literally insulted everyone in Kings Landing in every single scene he is either calling someone a fool or patronising them. He mocks his bannermen publicly for incompetence and rules purely by force n money without any respect or building bridges. However Stannis is ostracized whilst Tywin has such an incredible reputation that none dare defy him. His own bannermen in the stormlands refuse to aid him and his brother defies him. Tywins remain universally loyal during the whole conflict, even when he is losing and the Lannister cause appears hopeless. Part of the problem is that Stannis failure to get allies is because as Renly says "you never wanted friends brother. But a man without friends is a man without power.". But, neither does Tywin Lannister. The early Lannister power-base is entirely something built up by Tywin and his bannermen are just so intimidated they don't need to be won over. He is frankly just as much of a miserable and anti-social guy as Stannis but still has this immense reservoir of support and loyalty.I just don't get how everyone is willing to support Tywin and yet they react totally differently to Stannis. Surely some of the Westerland lords would be unwilling to support Tywin Lannister as Robb Stark defeats him, or because hes supporting Joffery who is a known psychopath, or because he is just evil and Renly has an army of 100,000 marching on the capitol. Things which are held against Stannis and work against him simply do not exist in relation to Tywin Lannister.
  5. I mean I thought it was strange that nobody really made the connection between the Seanchan (Raken/To-raken) apart from once when Rand sees a painter put wings on his flag. So, do you think this creature was around during the Age of Legends and thats where the image is taken from? With the raken/toraken being related to it? Or is it just simply the artist of Lews Therins flag took the wings off for artistic reasons (magic makes it fly not wings?) off a raken which he used as a point of reference?
  6. No, they should have certainly had a neutral title and used spoiler tags in thread. Fair enough I'll edit it.
  7. No, really. For the last year on that board any mention of Jorah involves people saying "he forced himself upon her". Nobody has ever objected to those terms being used even though they apparently mean rape and there is nothing in the text to suggest that. An unasked for but enjoyed advance (which I assumed was what these posters had to be referring to in derogatory language) since theres no suggestion of rape in the text but apparently people on that site don't feel the same way. So we're talking about whether Dany should hold Jorahs jealousy, his kiss and the tension between them against him at the end of ASOS; n I said she shouldn't because its only supposed to be about his spying. Apparently this makes everyone leap up say "you're defending rape" because obviously the natural assumption everyone on that board has made is Jorah forced himself on Dany and raped her; therefore saying Dany shouldn't have held that kiss against him is rape. Now any sensible moderator would know that the suggestion that Dany is raped is trolling. Would read the comments and see that I was referring to the tension which develops as a result of this event and Jorahs jealousy in ASOS. Would know that I consider the idea that Jorah raped Dany a non-opinion not worthy of a response or acknowledgement. But no, apparently, thats the common assumption on that website and the first thing they read into my words is defending rape. Unfortunately I can't complain to the moderators until my account is restored in 2 weeks time. But I am not standing for that accusation being thrown down.
  8. I just got banned from a site for saying she wasn't. How is two close friends kissing in a scene where the author notes through her POV that she kisses him back and thinks "his lips are soft" count as rape? Can somebody please explain that one to me?
  9. So the DO is part of the pattern? If the wheel is meant to balance out good and evil; and the DO is a product of said evil then that seems to contradict the notion he isn't part of the Universal Order. Wouldn't killing the DO just mean all those evil actions would eventually feed the birth of a new evil god ala Slannesh from 40k? The DO isn't part of the pattern, so I don't see how killing him, or even burning him from existence could touch the pattern since he isn't part of it. So nothing Rand does to the DO should affect the Pattern. Unless this suggests that Rand was slightly insane and thinking of creating utopia since he had the chance to alter the pattern. Even though this would wipe the current reality from existence and kill all his friends. I assumed he was just showing visions to the DO of why he is wrong to be a nihilist. Not proposing that he would actually change the world to his vision. But I still don't see how killing him should equate to fundamentally changing part of the pattern.
  10. A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern. To me this really undermined the whole premise and resolution of their confrontation.
  11. Been wondering about how in Wheel of Time you have Fain (Mashadar) and the Dark One as two evil beings trying to corrupt the world. I tink it might be possible that the forces of fire (Rhollor) are trying to do the exact opposite to what the others are doing, a "summer which never ends" by destroying all ice (Great Other) in the world. Those of us who have read Wheel of Time know that a never ending summer is just as bad as a never ending winter. This could very well be the agenda of Quiathe in manipulating Daenerys into fighting ice and going to Westeros as well as other rhollor worshippers. Admittedly though it would be annoying for another fantasy/sci-fi series to suggest that whole Yin Yang balance=good thing. It might very much suit where Martins going but it is really cliché.
  12. OP - Yes and No. I felt that just the sheer mental image of Mashadar pouring suddenly down into the valley and drowning these two vast armies as this unstoppable force was a very strong image. I suppose the threat wasn't embellished enough but if Matt hadn't stopped him then quite simply nothing would and he could well have killed both Rand n the Dark One. Plus, he technically did kill Matt. Just fresh from Egwenes death and having won the great battle it was not inconceivable to me that he might die with his role having been fulfilled. Especially since Perrin who had a grudge against Fain was also there and might have done the deed (red herring on the reveal about his parents BTW) But Yes, I do agree with a lot of what others say. A longer passage could have done it justice. Or, he should have been killed as a threat long before. Frankly I found him a bit too much of a golem character and struggled to take him seriously for most of the series. But the idea of him being this other cthulu monster/force of nature to the DO was a neat idea.
  13. I have no idea. Maybe he thinks he is more clever than he is? The only reason for cliffhangers is to build hype for the next book. ADWD and AFFC are ALL cliffhangers. On the eve of three major battles and a swath of major and minor characters fates were left hanging precariously in the air. I can only assume that after the 11 year slog through Crows and Dragons that either Martin or the editors felt insecure about continuing interest in the series with the big gaps between publication. Really, the only reason for cliffhangers is to keep people hooked into the series.
  14. Wow, I am just gonna put down some of my initial thoughts on the book. There was a lot of good here and some bad. On the whole a satisfying end to the series. -I was STUNNED that Egwene died. I mean, really, I actually couldn't believe she was dead. Nobody dies for 13 books and then the biggest female character dies? Especially since she was a character who most strongly thought towards the future, strengthening the White Tower, reaching out to other groups of channelers, blowing away the cobwebs of the old and her promise to Tuon that she intended to live to see their evil empire fall. Especially in the context of Rand debate with the Dark One over nihilism that was a very powerful moment. Egwene represented promise and hope for the future. Really, GRRM has nothing on that. -The other deaths also had similar effect. I liked Gawyn in this moment where he confessed his failings and took it on himself. Siun as well was another shock. Bryne and the Bashere died offscreen wasn't good. -Really did not like how they had Nynaeve as a wielder of Callandor. I can more or less live with Moiraines limited role but if the idea was that Rand would go with women who have had a formative role on him then this should have been Cadsuane. I really think Nynaeve going with Lan and perhaps saving him at one point as well as bonding with her new Malkieri subjects (she is a Queen now) would have been better. Especially since her testing emphasised that she would chose Lan over being an Aes Sedai. Just having her stand there and give herbs to Alanna was very unsatisfying. Yes, technically she and Moiraine trapped Moridin and defeated the DO. But I would have preferred a more prominent role. -However I disliked how we have four successive people have a crack at Demandred. it does get a little silly and that with hundreds of thousands on the battlefield Galad and Lan literally just rode up him. They were all badass. Galad spitting at the forsakens feet was a nice touch. Also, Lans motivation for taking it on himself to charge up made no sense. I really wanted him to think that he was doing it because Egwene had died and it just felt like he didn't have a motivation beyond general badassery for being the one to take down Demandred. -Incidentally. I understand that most of the Demandred material was put into its own novella. But its a little strange how he is the MAIN villain in this whilst other much more established villains like Moridin, Fain and even the Dark One; are given pretty anti-climatic ends or don't get to do much. Its especially testing when characters who clearly are from that story appear or worse die and when Demandred reflects on how he has changed from his time in Shara. -A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern. -Again, I understand that there were originally going to be outrigger books that would deal with Perrin and Matt. But I felt there was a huge lack of resolution with the Seanchan and even with what Faile becoming Queen of Saldea would mean. Indeed the epilogue was on the whole very lacking and very brief considering the scale of the series. -Perrins duel with Slayer went on FAR too long. It also undercut his arc as developing into and embracing his role as a leader of men. I get that command is Matts moment. But, he kinda leaves his army for most of the story. -I have no idea what Matt was doing or how he could have predicted any of that happening at the right time. Plus, I don't understand how Matt could bottleneck the Sharans with their ability to travel and it was only at the very end that he thought to do this with the Seanchan to trap the enemy. -lol Min is the Pope. :D -I SOOO wanted to see Hawkwing talk to Tuon. :D That would have been hilarious and it never gets mentioned after. :( -Would have been neat to have Mayene described. Berelains constant presence peaked my interest. -Graendal being made Gaishan by her own compulsion was lol worthy as well. -Moghedian is a strange loose end to leave. Ironic that the spider truly did outlast them all. -Personally I thought there was nothing wrong with Lanfear redeeming herself in the end. In fact its strange that this is never done with any of the Forsaken in general. Killing her felt a little too harsh since she was IMO the most reasonable of the Forsaken or that she could have been clever enough to escape.
  15. Then why was it several books long if it was just to set us into a false sense of security before Caemlyns fall? If its point was to be too easy going for Elayne whilst the real threat gets ready then it doesn't require vast embellishment.
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