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@Whizbang: Thanks for your answers. I understand your point r.e. my third question , and that is how I understood it from the books but that doesn't seem right with what we know of TAR. From Egwene's and Perrin's training we learn that a large part (maybe 70-80%) of controlling TAR is will power - being unshakeable in your belief of what you want to be there, and being able to completely dismiss anything you dont like, whether its a nightmare or a change inflicted on you by another dreamwalker. We are told numerous times by RJ and other forsaken that Moghedian is the best in TAR. If she cannot simply 'unbelieve' something an untrained, untalented (and unconvinced - Nynaeve takes several moments to shore up her conviction r.e. the a'dam - then what exactly is she master of? She knows its not real? Why can't she just make it disappear?

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Maybe the problem with Moghi is that she was trained in the AoL, when everything was defined and had rules and had been taught for hundreds of years. Moghi knew all the tricks of TAR, but not the fundamental cause and effect of TAR, which is force of will. She knew what she knew, which was a lot, but in knowing so much, she forgot that it all boils down to willpower. The a'dam was not something she was familiar with or expected. She didn't know any tricks to escape it, and so she panicked.

 

Plus, I get the impression that Moghi will always lose in a contest of wills. She plans and traps. In TAR, this means she works behind the scenes and lets the other dreamer convince themselves what they are seeing is real. She doesn't go face to face and try to force something on another. She only does so with Nyn because she underestimates her. She is overconfident of her training and experience. Nyn won in that contest of wills by default because Nyn = stubborn and Moghi = crafty and careful, but avoids direct confrontations with equals (which she did not consider Nyn to be until after she was captured).

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Thanks for that link, Suttree, very helpful. It has given me some more questions about TAR though! Who are the actual dreamwalkers in the series? Are the Forsaken all dreamwalkers or can some only enter in the flesh? Can anyone enter TAR in the flesh? What are the differences between Perrin's and Egwene's skills, or are they both capable of the same things (minus the wolf connection for Egwene)? And what can Dreamwalkers do that non-Dreamwalkers can't? Is it juat enter TAR without a ter'angreal and enter other peoples dreams?

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Perrin can "Smell" the destination when someone wills themselves elsewhere. Hopper says that anyone can do this... as long as they can smell as well as a wolf. So, there is that in the plus column for Perrin over other dreamerwalkers. I think Perrin is getting the much better training out of him and Egwene. The Aiel dreamwalkers are great and have a lot of knowledge, but wolves LIVE in the dream all the time. Though, Egwene and other dreamwalkers seem to be able to go to that place in between that allows them to view/enter dreams of normal people.

 

Re: dreamwalkers vs mundanes with a ter'angreal

I belief the difference in TAR itself is negligible, except perhaps more experience or intuition. The will is all.

Edited by Whizbang
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The True Power comes from the DO.  It can be accessed by men and women, but only those who the DO has given permission/the ability to use it.

 

The One Power comes from the True Source, which is the force made by the Creator to keep the Wheel of Time turning.  It is differentiated into saidar (accessible for women), and saidin (accesible for men).  Only people with the ability to channel can use it.

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Thanks... I was just confused because I read somewhere in the series that Elayne channeled the true power which didn't make much sense

 Maybe you were confused as the place the one power is drawn from is sometimes referred to as the "True Source". That trips people up sometimes.

Edited by Suttree
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Thanks... I was just confused because I read somewhere in the series that Elayne channeled the true power which didn't make much sense

 Maybe you were confused as the place the one power is drawn from is sometimes referred to as the "True Source". That trips people up sometimes.

ohh... yeah that's probably what it was

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Perrin can "Smell" the destination when someone wills themselves elsewhere. Hopper says that anyone can do this... as long as they can smell as well as a wolf. So, there is that in the plus column for Perrin over other dreamerwalkers. I think Perrin is getting the much better training out of him and Egwene. The Aiel dreamwalkers are great and have a lot of knowledge, but wolves LIVE in the dream all the time. Though, Egwene and other dreamwalkers seem to be able to go to that place in between that allows them to view/enter dreams of normal people.

 

Re: dreamwalkers vs mundanes with a ter'angreal

I belief the difference in TAR itself is negligible, except perhaps more experience or intuition. The will is all.

I believe that none of the forsaken, except perhaps lanfear, were dreamwalkers; but TAR was likely a basic part of AS training in AoL. I imagine, just as there is a weave that can create a gateway to TAR, there is likely a weave, or 'concentration' that allows one to dream themselves into TAR, much like dreamwalkers do, without needing a terangreal or needing the specific Dreaming Talent. 

Alternatively, the Forsaken were chosen for a wide range of abilities including dreamwalking among other talents; otherwise it seems to be stretching coincidence too far that all the Forsaken could Dream.

It also appears that in the AoL, TAR was taught (as mentioned before) differently than dreamwalkers. You were taught how to do stuff, but not what you can do. 

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We have this quote...

 

 

 

Terez (herid)

When you said some Forsaken are Dreamers, you meant they have prophetic dreams, right? Or are they just Dreamwalkers?
Brandon Sanderson

I did mean Dreamers. People have been trying to pin me down on that one.

TEREZ

Yeah, everybody has been like convinced that you were just confused...

BRANDON SANDERSON

...that I was just confused. No. I meant Dreamers. I DID INDEED MEAN DREAMERS.

TEREZ

I know you did, but...just verifying.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. And I’m like 95% on that one. We’ll put an asterisk on it. I actually sent Maria deeper into the notes, but I know at least one is, and I’m pretty sure one of each gender is.

Footnote
The most likely candidates seem to be Moridin, Cyndane, and Moghedien, who are undeniably the most skilled at getting into people's dreams and using Tel'aran'rhiod. These talents seem to go together, and all three of them are still alive as of Towers of Midnight (out of five remaining Forsaken).
While some of the Forsaken were trained there are also some of them(though not all) that are dreamers and dreamwalkers.
Edited by Suttree
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The ones who aren't can always enter in the flesh- I believe I am right in saying that it is only a weave that allows it to happen.

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What is the significance of Elayne and Aviendha becoming first-sisters?  I can't recall whether it has any plot related significance or is actually ever mentioned again after the event? (I don't remember Aviendha and Elayne even interacting much after it, but I haven't done a re-read for years and probably have the timing of events all mixed up).

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What is the significance of Elayne and Aviendha becoming first-sisters?  I can't recall whether it has any plot related significance or is actually ever mentioned again after the event? (I don't remember Aviendha and Elayne even interacting much after it, but I haven't done a re-read for years and probably have the timing of events all mixed up).

I just finished a re-read and I don't believe that there is much significance, other than Elayne now having an "in" among the Aiel, and Rand being able to marry both Elayne and Avi (do Aiel require that sister wives become first sisters first?)

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Is there a detailed "map" of the descendants of the Dai'shan Aiel? We know of four groups; the Tu'athan (Tinkers), the Aiel (of course), the Athan Me'ire (Sea Folk) and the Annyar (sp) (Sea Folk "natives").

It's been suggested that Shara may be another, and I think that the Seanchan can be related, based on their odd rules of honor, i see a lot of "almost-but-different" similarities with the Aiel.

 

Where there any more?

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About Elayne & Aviendha, they spent much time together until mid Knife of Dreams.


About Daishan descendants, I recall the books telling only Tuathan and Aiel.
Do not recall any book suggesting Shara; that probably was reader speculation.
Seanchan, not sure; their honor seems to be significantly different than the Aiel's. And Aiel's ji'e'toh seems to have been developed sometime after they departed from the "Way of the Leaf".

I take there are 3 ways for two (or more) groups to have similarities::
-the groups having 1 common group of ancestors
-the groups having common acquaintances
-the groups "sharing" similar events
Each of those 3 not always so.

Edited by mb
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I guess the adam can control only touch of the 5 senses; maybe also emotion.

As far as I recall, the only terangreal (shown on-screen in the books) that let others control all 5 senses is the one for the Accepted to Aes Sedia test.  Maybe also emotion for this also.

Telaranrhiod seems to allow people to control all 5 senses of others.  And Dreamwalkers I guess can control all 5 senses within ordinary dreams.  I guess also emotion for these 2 also.

Not entirely sure, but Compulsion might be able to control all 5 senses (and emotion).

Sort of changed mind about some things I told there.

 

the adam; the damane might have memories of the other 4 senses if she experienced similar things when not wearing an adam.

 

another terangreal that might let others control all 5 senses::  the Chair of Remorse.

Maybe emotion also.

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I guess the adam can control only touch of the 5 senses; maybe also emotion.

As far as I recall, the only terangreal (shown on-screen in the books) that let others control all 5 senses is the one for the Accepted to Aes Sedia test.  Maybe also emotion for this also.

Telaranrhiod seems to allow people to control all 5 senses of others.  And Dreamwalkers I guess can control all 5 senses within ordinary dreams.  I guess also emotion for these 2 also.

Not entirely sure, but Compulsion might be able to control all 5 senses (and emotion).

Sort of changed mind about some things I told there.

 

the adam; the damane might have memories of the other 4 senses if she experienced similar things when not wearing an adam.

 

another terangreal that might let others control all 5 senses::  the Chair of Remorse.

Maybe emotion also.

AFAIK there is no way for one person to control another persons emotions. However, one skilled in manipulating people can 'encourage' an emotional response. I.e for a suldam, she can reward or punish her damane, which would 'encourage' an emotional response of pleasure, affection, fear, hurt or anger. Compulsion can stimulate adoration or affection, as does the Crystal Throne. But those are the exeptions i think (does the crystal throne use compulsion?)

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"Tia'mi aven Moridin isande vadin" - Chapter 52, The Eye of the World, when they find the Horn of Valere.

 

"The Grave is no bar to my call" or perhaps, "Moridin is no bar to my call".

It just seems to be a little too much of a coincidence. Can this be foreshadowing Moridin's "rebirth"?

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the books give 2 meanings for "moridin":: the grave; death.

there can be a difference between those 2 meanings.  "the grave" often implies some physical place; in relation to that phrase, perhaps telaranrhiod.  "death" often implies a non-physical state; the Heroes could be considered not dead since they live in telaranrhiod.

Moridin the name I take uses that later meaning.  Which kind of makes sense; since his former body became dead and since his current body was taken from some dead person.

 

By the way; I have not considered him (or any of the others) to be reborn, but resurrected.

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maybe one or both of these::

-this marriage being because of love

-former marriage being because of duty/obligation

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I wonder if the Andoran royalty lines keep the woman's name in all marriages, or if they only keep them if they are currently royalty.

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