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The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

 

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

Edited by Agitel

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Never thought about this until today, while reading in The Shadow Rising when Asmodean tells Rand's crew and the Aiel a post-Breaking tale, and it got me wondering... The Forsaken have only been free for a little while, and with the exception of Ishamael they have been unaware of the world. How do they know so much about the people and customs of Randland? They never show any knowledge gaps when interacting with people, and have no problem speaking the common tongue, and seem to have a better grasp than most about what's been going on for the past few thousand years. It seems like, in Asmodean's case, memorizing a ballad about Manetheren would be pretty low on the todo list after being free for the first time in over three thousand years

 

Jordan's said that the Forsaken could essentially observe the world in a limited fashion while they were sealed.

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Never thought about this until today, while reading in The Shadow Rising when Asmodean tells Rand's crew and the Aiel a post-Breaking tale, and it got me wondering... The Forsaken have only been free for a little while, and with the exception of Ishamael they have been unaware of the world. How do they know so much about the people and customs of Randland? They never show any knowledge gaps when interacting with people, and have no problem speaking the common tongue, and seem to have a better grasp than most about what's been going on for the past few thousand years. It seems like, in Asmodean's case, memorizing a ballad about Manetheren would be pretty low on the todo list after being free for the first time in over three thousand years

The common tongue is derived from the Old Tongue, and is comparatively easy to learn. As for Asmo, for a man with his interests learning about the music of the Age is surely going to be somewhere on the agenda, especially as he is posing as a gleeman. Mostly, we don't see them in situations where their knowledge gaps would show.

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Is it ever explained who or what determines when a novice/Accepted is ready to be Tested?  With all the "The hour waits on no woman" and "The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills," it almost seems like some outside force chooses the timing, or maybe something about the women themselves causes the Testing to be imminent, like a biological or magical alarm clock going off, for lack of a better term.

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The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

 

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

Then we come back to that age old question. If reality is warping everything around the main characters an dactively shuffling events so that they happen in the way the Pattern wants then where is the TENSION? Where is the belief that evil has a chance of winning? This is not an EXPERIMENTAL story. This is a 14 book several year long investment of time and energy just to read it. You need to buy that the characters are in danger and that they could actually die.. You need to buy that the bad guys could actually achieve their flaming goals.

 

The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, yet everything the heroes and villains do bends itself to the pattern's wishes when Ta'veren are around. The Pattern obviously isn't going to let itself be destroyed... so where's the chance that the Dark One might win? What reason do I have to care while I'm reading?

 

I've heard people talk about this element forever and yet they never seem to comprehend my underlying issue. THERE. IS. NO. TENSION.

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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Is it ever explained who or what determines when a novice/Accepted is ready to be Tested?  With all the "The hour waits on no woman" and "The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills," it almost seems like some outside force chooses the timing, or maybe something about the women themselves causes the Testing to be imminent, like a biological or magical alarm clock going off, for lack of a better term.

 

The impression I got from the books is that they are tested whenever the AS teaching them think they are ready.  I think "The hour waits on no woman" etc. is just more evidence of the typical AS love for mystery.

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THERE. IS. NO. TENSION.

Incorrect. The DO is far stronger than the pattern/wheel alone; but the Bore limits his power OVER the pattern.

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Why does Egwene lie and say she is an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah to the Wise Ones?  It has all sorts of unpleasant ramifications for her later on, and Moiraine disapproves (she tightens her mouth when Egwene says it).  I can understand why Eg, Nyn, and El pretended to be AS in the Wetlands where they needed to be treated with respect to do what they had to do, but I don't understand why Egwene chooses to continue the lie with the Wise Ones.

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unanswered questions (some of them edited)::

 

How did Verin find out about the shadowspawn attack on Caemlyn ( roughly several months before it happened)?
My guesses::
-another Darkfriend telling her
-she eavesdropping or overhearing a conversation about it
-the ordering Forsaken visiting somewhere near her location
-someone happening to predict it in her hearing

I guess she found out sometime after she left Rand; is this correct?

How come Mat seems to be the only Light-sided character she sent word to about it?

the word "went" in the letter; which did it mean?
-that the shadowspawn went before she found out
-that the shadowspawn went before she written the letter
-that the shadowspawn went before the time she indicated in the letter
-that the shadowspawn went at some other time than those


Elayne got an indicator of the attack through interrogating a Black.  Did Elayne tell anybody else or did she forget?

When, where, and through whom did that Black find out?



After Ramshalan told his mission, Graendal did a gateway but closed it afterward.  Where exactly was she going to go?  One of the places she was at later in the book or somewhere else?  If one of the places, which one?


Where did Ramshalan get the name Lady Basene?  Arangar, Delana, or Graendal's servants telling him?

And was she disguised by the Illusion weave?  If so, same disguise she showed Sammael much earlier?

 

 

 

unrelated question::

the telaranrhiod battle (Towers of Midnight Chapters 36-38); how many were on both sides?

 

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The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

 

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

Then we come back to that age old question. If reality is warping everything around the main characters an dactively shuffling events so that they happen in the way the Pattern wants then where is the TENSION? Where is the belief that evil has a chance of winning? This is not an EXPERIMENTAL story. This is a 14 book several year long investment of time and energy just to read it. You need to buy that the characters are in danger and that they could actually die.. You need to buy that the bad guys could actually achieve their flaming goals.

 

The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, yet everything the heroes and villains do bends itself to the pattern's wishes when Ta'veren are around. The Pattern obviously isn't going to let itself be destroyed... so where's the chance that the Dark One might win? What reason do I have to care while I'm reading?

 

I've heard people talk about this element forever and yet they never seem to comprehend my underlying issue. THERE. IS. NO. TENSION.

They aren't guaranteed safety, even as ta'veren, they can still die. Anyway, this is why the DO has called the Fotsaken off of one on one confrontations with Rand. They haven't been working. The Dark One's playing a different game now and using Rand's ta'veren-ness to his advantage.

 

 

 

Side-note: Rand's partially based on the Norse god of single combat.

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Why does Egwene lie and say she is an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah to the Wise Ones?  It has all sorts of unpleasant ramifications for her later on, and Moiraine disapproves (she tightens her mouth when Egwene says it).  I can understand why Eg, Nyn, and El pretended to be AS in the Wetlands where they needed to be treated with respect to do what they had to do, but I don't understand why Egwene chooses to continue the lie with the Wise Ones.

It started when she met Alys in T'A'R, I believe. She didn't know who she was sealing with. I think she wasn't quite sure how to get out of that one once it started. It just snowballed. She may have been afraid that if she told the truth the Wise Ones would atop her training.

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unanswered questions (some of them edited)::

 

How did Verin find out about the shadowspawn attack on Caemlyn ( roughly several months before it happened)?

My guesses::

-another Darkfriend telling her

-she eavesdropping or overhearing a conversation about it

-the ordering Forsaken visiting somewhere near her location

-someone happening to predict it in her hearing

 

I guess she found out sometime after she left Rand; is this correct?

yes

How come Mat seems to be the only Light-sided character she sent word to about it?

personality? predictability?

the word "went" in the letter; which did it mean?

-that the shadowspawn went before she found out

-that the shadowspawn went before she written the letter

-that the shadowspawn went before the time she indicated in the letter

-that the shadowspawn went at some other time than those

 

Elayne got an indicator of the attack through interrogating a Black.  Did Elayne tell anybody else or did she forget?

RAFO

When, where, and through whom did that Black find out?

Orders from her superiors, most likely. Does it matter?

After Ramshalan told his mission, Graendal did a gateway but closed it afterward.  Where exactly was she going to go?  One of the places she was at later in the book or somewhere else?  If one of the places, which one?

 

Where did Ramshalan get the name Lady Basene?  Arangar, Delana, or Graendal's servants telling him?

 

And was she disguised by the Illusion weave?  If so, same disguise she showed Sammael much earlier?

read the prologue to ToM.

 

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Did read the prologue; it did not specify any of those answers.

 

Your "RAFO"; which chapter contains the answer?

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The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

 

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

Then we come back to that age old question. If reality is warping everything around the main characters an dactively shuffling events so that they happen in the way the Pattern wants then where is the TENSION? Where is the belief that evil has a chance of winning? This is not an EXPERIMENTAL story. This is a 14 book several year long investment of time and energy just to read it. You need to buy that the characters are in danger and that they could actually die.. You need to buy that the bad guys could actually achieve their flaming goals.

 

The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, yet everything the heroes and villains do bends itself to the pattern's wishes when Ta'veren are around. The Pattern obviously isn't going to let itself be destroyed... so where's the chance that the Dark One might win? What reason do I have to care while I'm reading?

 

I've heard people talk about this element forever and yet they never seem to comprehend my underlying issue. THERE. IS. NO. TENSION.

If no-one comprehends your underlying issue, then perhaps you should stop and think why. Is it because you are making your point badly, or is it because you are making a bad point? As it is, we tell you over and over that the Shadow can win, that ta'veren does not guarantee victory, that the Shadow wins several victories throughout the series and has won (albeit not completely) in Ages past. We even tell you over and over that the Pattern doesn't have any wishes to bend people to. There are mechanisms to correct the drift of the pattern, not to stop it drifting to begin with. If you've already freed Shai'tan before the Wheel can put things back on track, it's too late. The reach of a ta'veren's ta'maral'ailen isn't infinite, they can't be everywhere, so if you create chaos everywhere that a ta'veren isn't it will take a lot of time and effort to put right. If they can't deal with everything before it's too late, you've won. You keep going on about the concepts that destroy the tension, but they don't. So, what's the problem?

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Did read the prologue; it did not specify any of those answers.

 

Your "RAFO"; which chapter contains the answer?

a. It shows you exactly what happens from Granny's POV

 

b. I don't know, havent read MoL yet. RAFO :P

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Why does Egwene lie and say she is an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah to the Wise Ones?  It has all sorts of unpleasant ramifications for her later on, and Moiraine disapproves (she tightens her mouth when Egwene says it).  I can understand why Eg, Nyn, and El pretended to be AS in the Wetlands where they needed to be treated with respect to do what they had to do, but I don't understand why Egwene chooses to continue the lie with the Wise Ones.

It started when she met Alys in T'A'R, I believe. She didn't know who she was sealing with. I think she wasn't quite sure how to get out of that one once it started. It just snowballed. She may have been afraid that if she told the truth the Wise Ones would atop her training.

Amys?

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Why does Egwene lie and say she is an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah to the Wise Ones?  It has all sorts of unpleasant ramifications for her later on, and Moiraine disapproves (she tightens her mouth when Egwene says it).  I can understand why Eg, Nyn, and El pretended to be AS in the Wetlands where they needed to be treated with respect to do what they had to do, but I don't understand why Egwene chooses to continue the lie with the Wise Ones.

It started when she met Alys in T'A'R, I believe. She didn't know who she was sealing with. I think she wasn't quite sure how to get out of that one once it started. It just snowballed. She may have been afraid that if she told the truth the Wise Ones would atop her training.

Amys?

Whoops. Yes, her. Not the kin woman

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Towers of Midnight Chapters 36 through 38; 2 groups of saidar channelers fight each other in telaranrhiod.  What was the total number of participants in both of those groups?

 

Around that time, Perrin and some wolves fought Slayer.  How many wolves participated in that fight?

 

What was Mesaana doing while Seachan attacked the White Tower?  (Gathering Storm Chapters 40-41)

Also, did she get word of it from anyone either before or during the attack?  If so, who told her and through what means?

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I missed a book sighing and would like A firts print of the last book sighed by Harriet. I was tinking of buying the book and sendng it with paid postage but di not know where to send it or if this would work?

Any info will help>

Thnaks

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About to start book 10.

 

Why exactly is this one so hated by the fandom exactly?

 

It's pretty much a catch up novel for all the plotlines that fell behind in Winter's Heart. This means you don't get to see reaction to the results of that novel, and some of the plotlines you're most eager to see advance after the last one . . . don't. Also, some major arcs barely seem to advance much at all, meaning that they stretch over three to four books. Add on top of that that many fans had to wait two years after Winter's Heart for this book, and then had to wait four (?) years for Knife of Dreams because Jordan chose to write a prequel novel after CoT, and you have a recipe for a book a lot of fans just don't like and even Jordan admitted he would have done differently if given another chance.

 

If you don't mind the slower pace, CoT won't be too bad at all. The prose is pretty great. You also have the advantage of not having to wait since finishing WH and won't have to wait to start KoD. As you read, keep in mind that CoT and KoD were intended as one book by Jordan. KoD starts wrapping up a lot of plotlines and brings about their actual climaxes, and is where Jordan demonstrated that he could still write a popularly paced novel that could deliver plot gratification with great writing. The way I see it, Jordan opened up a lot of plotlines in PoD, too many to handle at a popular pace, and they were all forced through a bottleneck which took a while to resolve.

 

I use the term "popular pace" instead of "good pace" because popular is less subjective.

Edited by Agitel

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Couple reasons. Mainly because there was a long wait and then not much advancement of the plot(it also focuses on plot lines that some fans don't care for). It is essentially the first half of KoD and revolves around different groups reactions to the Cleansing. It could have used a tighter editor but the writing is top notch. When read straight through with the others it's not a bad book at all.

Edited by Suttree

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Perrin trying to rescue Faile, Elayne's political struggle for the throne, and the rebel AS camped outside of Tar Valon.

Edited by Suttree

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