Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Eleint]

It's actually the opposite, in re the TP vs the OP.  Jordan said they were equal and so did BS.  This was explicitly said in a signing when someone asked about the TP Rand was channeling by BS, and RJ said it earlier.  So no, the TP is /not/ more powerful than the OP.

 

Anyone wanna pull up the quotes?

[Mr Ares]

He can't spend forever in Camelyn because the way I see it the asskicking and nametaking has to start soon and Mat at least has to be there for most of it. On a personal note, Moraine must be healed by a man so she can do some damage too.

Why does she need to be healed by a man? Are you assuming that she was stilled.. we have no proof of that.

No proof, but the evidence does suggest it.

 

Yes.. but then, they went into a ter'angreal, where you can make three wishes. We don't really know what happened in there at all. There's too many seperate factors here. We know the Finns don't want to deal with anything that touches on the Shadow.. so how would they react to one of the Forsaken fumbling through their doorway? Maybe Moridin's mindtrap on her is limiting her power... we just don't know. I give it to you, you do make fair points, but it's very hard to tell with all the mystery surrounding what really happened that day.

The Eelfinn have no reason to grant any wishes, we don't know how they'd deal with a Chosen, but it apparently involves keeping her prisoner, Moggy isn't shown to be at all limited in her strength by the mindtrap, and it is against the Shadow's interests to limit her in such a way. As I say, no proof, but the evidence is indicative.

 

We have no way of telling whether or not she was stilled, or it's just an effect of her being in the finnland, seeing as it is a separate plane of existence, connections may not exist across that threshold.

They did in TSR. And Occam's Razor.

 

good catch Swigaro. i did not pick up on that, but it definitely fits with why Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear and we definitely know Cyndane is her reborn. Have the people in the book figured out it has to be someone of the opposite gender though? and Flinn is the only guy that can do the healing, correct?

What do you mean it has to be someone of the opposite sex?  Nynaeve Healed Siuan and Leane.

Yes, but not fully. A male has to heal a female, and a female has to heal a male.. we've seen different examples of this, but the characters haven't figured it out yet.

Also, RJ did confirm that it requires someone of the opposite sex to Heal severing fully.

[benr]

The Eelfinn have no reason to grant any wishes, we don't know how they'd deal with a Chosen, but it apparently involves keeping her prisoner, Moggy isn't shown to be at all limited in her strength by the mindtrap, and it is against the Shadow's interests to limit her in such a way. As I say, no proof, but the evidence is indicative.

 

This is reasonable, but it is also reasonable to consider that the Eelfinn are sustained by feeding on the experiences of WOT folk, and they have been getting fewer and fewer opportunities to do so.  Moiraine would seem to be a choice "meal", once she gets back; lots of interesting experiences.

 

A side note:  I don't see Moiraine considering a life with Tom if she expected to come out of the Tower still able to channel.  She would have a few years with him, and then he would be gone, while Moiraine would have a lifetime to live.  If she thought her time would be limited, she would be more apt to accept the arrangement.  She wouldn't have known of healing being severed, though, so the situation may have changed enough for that relationship to be not "consummated".

[Shmuel Goldberg]

What I really, really like to see in ToM, is some kind of 'Elrond's council' scene. It's long long overdue that the main characters come together and talk to each other. A lot of characters are heading toward Caemlyn.

 

Let's see:  

 

In Caemlyn already:

Elayne

Kin

Seafolk windfinders

 

Heading toward Caemlyn:

Matt, Thom, the band (probably Moiraine after rescue)

Perrin, Morgase likely Gawyn (since he meets up with Perrin)

 

Reason for others to go to Caemlyn:

Rand (because of Elayne)

dragging along: Tam, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Amys, Rhuarc etc.

Egwene+White Tower (because of Black Tower)

 

Important people without reason to go to Caemlyn:

Borderlander rulers

Seanchan (Tuon)

Lan

 

[Rogue_Stone_Dog]

These were my thots on Moraine earlier in the blog. I still think this may be likely as well.

 

This is my 1st post. Here's my thoughts on ToM. If i step on anyone's toes or theories I truly meant no disrespect.

 

ToG will be early as so many stated for obvious reasons of reitroducing Moraine to a world in chaos & spirally further down into the abyss. My speculation focuses on Moraine. we know that Cyndane/Lanfear returned different in appearance and not as strong in the power. Appearance means little but power is another matter. The two prior male forsaken to be returned never quipped about their strength. They seemed to notice no difference. Graendal remarks even that Cyndane acts like Lanfear but is a lot weaker. Why?

 

I think she's weaker because the Aelfinn/Eelfinn did a little punishment to her and Moraine. When they went thru Moraine had seen the possible futures and knew how to interact with them for intruding, Lanfear did not. So in response to something Lanfear did they took her power level and swapped it with Moraine's. If they can sift memories and emotions I think they can manipulate peoples' skills as well. So Moraine comes back to Randland as one of the most powerful saidar wielders alive.

 

I think then that Rand, Moraine, and Alivia make up the 3 for the Callandor circle. Two of Min's viewings lead me to believe this. One being Rand needs Moraine to have a chance winning TG(not sure exact wording) & Alivia would help him die. If the 2 join with Rand to use Callandor to seal the DO prison then I think we'll see both viewings come to pass.

 

Nyneave weeping over someone? I saw somebody post this idea but would like to expand on it. I don't think it's Lan. I think it's Myrelle & I think it takes place at the BT battle. When Nyneave sees her she'll be overcome with grief knowing that Lan is in a death rage from the bond severing. She'll go find him and bond him to save him. I think it will play out that Myrelle is mortally wounded, Nyneave is too exhausted from the battle to heal her, Myrelle passes where Lan is, & Nyneave sets out after a rest.

 

One quest from the Nyneave viewing chapter. Min saw a black dagger over another AS head. What does it mean? Maybe she travels back to the tower and a Bloodknife gets her.

 

 

[clu7ch]

The idea of a power swap is new to me and alot i like that.

 

preps.

[Firebird]

Regarding Lanfear/Cyndane...

 

Firstly, I don't see the fact that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear as being any kind of proof that she was Healed of stilling. I always believed strength in the power was much like any other strength a person may possess, in that it is defined by that person's unique physiology, and some are stronger or weaker than others.

 

For example, Person A can lift 100lbs in weights, but Person B can only lift 70lbs. If you take Person A's soul and transmigrate it into Person B, despite whatever prowess they may have had before, they are now stuck with the limitations of Person B's body. So, to follow on, Cyndane's body just isn't "strong" enough to deal with the amount of power than Lanfear's body could. Her lesser power is merely a side effect of having a new body.

 

I also don't think there is sufficient evidence to assume Moiraine has been stilled in Finnland. Yes, her bond with Lan broke, but as others have already mentioned, she is in a different dimension from Lan and I do think it seems unlikely that the bond would remain under these circumstances. I know Lan could feel her when she went through the Doorway in Tear - but there was always a connection back to the real world (ie Randland) when she visited before. This time, the doorway in effect slammed shut, severing all connections between this world and the Finn's world.

 

One other piece of evidence I would put forward against Moiraine being stilled is the fact it has been mentioned numerous times that stilled sisters often die soon after, as they lose their will to live. Siuan and Leane fired themselves up with righteous anger in order to keep going when they were stilled, but imagine Moiraine trapped in a different dimension, with presumably no allies or friends, possibly kept in captivity for a long, long time. I can't imagine even the strongest willed sister keeping going in that situation.

[Declan]

When you swap someone like that it doesnt work that way. Otherwise Aran'gar, Osan'gar, and Moridin would all be weaker than when they were in their "first" bodies. I dont think has anything to do with physiology.

 

And there is no way there was a power swap or else the forsaken would notice that Cyndane was far far far weaker than Lanfear. Moiraine was way under Lanfear in the ladder of power levels. They said she was only a little bit weaker. Remember lanfear was one of the most powerful humans, including men and women.

[analyticalkeys]

One other piece of evidence I would put forward against Moiraine being stilled is the fact it has been mentioned numerous times that stilled sisters often die soon after, as they lose their will to live. Siuan and Leane fired themselves up with righteous anger in order to keep going when they were stilled, but imagine Moiraine trapped in a different dimension, with presumably no allies or friends, possibly kept in captivity for a long, long time. I can't imagine even the strongest willed sister keeping going in that situation.

 

If Moraine was indeed stilled, it's easy to see what her motivation is. She knows that Thom is going to tell Mat about the letter, and while she says that Mat decide not to rescue her.. I think she just knows that he will. Therefore, she would have something to strive for. Also, Moraine always seems to know things that she really has no logical way of knowing.. it's been shown many times at the beginning of the series, so it just seems likely that she knows what will happen here too, and that could provide her enough strength.

[Firebird]

When you swap someone like that it doesnt work that way. Otherwise Aran'gar, Osan'gar, and Moridin would all be weaker than when they were in their "first" bodies. I dont think has anything to do with physiology.

Perhaps this is just another difference between men and women? (OK I know that's a bit tenuous). Have we actually had a definitive point of view from the others that their strength is the same, or are we just assuming? (Aran'gar/Halima is a unique case I think).

[clu7ch]

We also need to realize that with Moridin, Aran'ar and such, we are dealing with the Dark One, which he is a completely different entity from the Finn's. Their powers are completely different, as are their motives.

[analyticalkeys]

Exactly, we don't even know that the Dark One transmigrated Lanfear... the Finns could've swapped her body as a sick joke, or something. There's too many unknowns with this whole ordeal.

[Firebird]

One other piece of evidence I would put forward against Moiraine being stilled is the fact it has been mentioned numerous times that stilled sisters often die soon after, as they lose their will to live. Siuan and Leane fired themselves up with righteous anger in order to keep going when they were stilled, but imagine Moiraine trapped in a different dimension, with presumably no allies or friends, possibly kept in captivity for a long, long time. I can't imagine even the strongest willed sister keeping going in that situation.

 

If Moraine was indeed stilled, it's easy to see what her motivation is. She knows that Thom is going to tell Mat about the letter, and while she says that Mat decide not to rescue her.. I think she just knows that he will. Therefore, she would have something to strive for. Also, Moraine always seems to know things that she really has no logical way of knowing.. it's been shown many times at the beginning of the series, so it just seems likely that she knows what will happen here too, and that could provide her enough strength.

It also says in her letter to Thom that she has seen many futures and her rescuers fail just as often as they succeed, so success is far from guaranteed. I think that losing the ability to channel, on top of being imprisoned, on top of being completely alone and isolated, on top of knowing that the end of the world is nigh may be just too much for one person to bear. I also wonder, given how highly the Aes Sedai value the ability to channel, if she's been stilled why would she assume that she would even be allowed to take up her previous position with Rand. Moiraine doesn't know that she could be Healed. She would be trapped believing her ability gone forever. She would also believe the other sisters wouldn't want her around Rand, as they seem to think that your brain goes along with your channelling ability (see Siuan's frequent POVs in TGS about this).

 

Nah, I think Moiraine will be back in the next book with all her skills intact (in fact, probably with greater knowledge than before), and she'll be in place as Rand's most trusted advisor by the end of the book.

[General Cauthon]

It also says in her letter to Thom that she has seen many futures and her rescuers fail just as often as they succeed, so success is far from guaranteed. I think that losing the ability to channel, on top of being imprisoned, on top of being completely alone and isolated, on top of knowing that the end of the world is nigh may be just too much for one person to bear. I also wonder, given how highly the Aes Sedai value the ability to channel, if she's been stilled why would she assume that she would even be allowed to take up her previous position with Rand. Moiraine doesn't know that she could be Healed. She would be trapped believing her ability gone forever. She would also believe the other sisters wouldn't want her around Rand, as they seem to think that your brain goes along with your channelling ability (see Siuan's frequent POVs in TGS about this).

 

Moiraine probably knows that Rand will lose without her(according to Min), which means that Moiraine has to survive, and escape, or else the Dark One will win and destroy the Pattern. That is more than enough motivation to stay alive.

[analyticalkeys]

One other piece of evidence I would put forward against Moiraine being stilled is the fact it has been mentioned numerous times that stilled sisters often die soon after, as they lose their will to live. Siuan and Leane fired themselves up with righteous anger in order to keep going when they were stilled, but imagine Moiraine trapped in a different dimension, with presumably no allies or friends, possibly kept in captivity for a long, long time. I can't imagine even the strongest willed sister keeping going in that situation.

 

If Moraine was indeed stilled, it's easy to see what her motivation is. She knows that Thom is going to tell Mat about the letter, and while she says that Mat decide not to rescue her.. I think she just knows that he will. Therefore, she would have something to strive for. Also, Moraine always seems to know things that she really has no logical way of knowing.. it's been shown many times at the beginning of the series, so it just seems likely that she knows what will happen here too, and that could provide her enough strength.

It also says in her letter to Thom that she has seen many futures and her rescuers fail just as often as they succeed, so success is far from guaranteed. I think that losing the ability to channel, on top of being imprisoned, on top of being completely alone and isolated, on top of knowing that the end of the world is nigh may be just too much for one person to bear. I also wonder, given how highly the Aes Sedai value the ability to channel, if she's been stilled why would she assume that she would even be allowed to take up her previous position with Rand. Moiraine doesn't know that she could be Healed. She would be trapped believing her ability gone forever. She would also believe the other sisters wouldn't want her around Rand, as they seem to think that your brain goes along with your channelling ability (see Siuan's frequent POVs in TGS about this).

 

Nah, I think Moiraine will be back in the next book with all her skills intact (in fact, probably with greater knowledge than before), and she'll be in place as Rand's most trusted advisor by the end of the book.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the final point, and I don't think she's been stilled, but if she was, I think you're seriously underestimating Moraine's willpower and resolve that we've seen throughout the first five books.

[Declan]

i really just can't wait to have Moiraine back in the books. The only female character that actually sees the "whole picture" and doesnt think she is the most important person in the world.

[Aleron688]

i really just can't wait to have Moiraine back in the books. The only female character that actually sees the "whole picture" and doesnt think she is the most important person in the world.

 

agreed.  she is my favourite female character from the series... even tho she's been absent in like half of them.

[dbo -WoT-]

Regarding Moiraine/Lanfear/Eelfinn-

 

I think the reason we see Lanfear as Cyndane now is because she was indeed killed by the Eelfinn. They can't stand anything touching on the shadow in Finnland, and Lanfear indeed is greatly tied to the shadow. Whether her weakened state is due to the Eelfinn or the limits on the Dark Ones ability to transmigrate souls is up to speculation. We do know the DO has limits on transmigration, but we also know the Eelfinn "held" Lanfear. Either could be the cause.

 

As to the return of Moiraine, I believe she is trapped in Finnland because the Eelfinn knew she forced Lanfear (someone strongly tied to the shadow) into their world. I don't claim to know the capabilities of the Eelfinn, but I doubt she has been stilled and most definitely isn't dead. I think she is simply being held as punishment for bringing Lanfear through the door with her (and presumably for Eelfinn pleasures as well). I've never read this theory before, but as I'm new to the forum scene it may have definitely been brought up. I think she will come back ("if a rescue attempt is made") at full strength in ToM. Just my two cents.

 

As to the swap idea between Lanfear and Moiraine's ablilities, I disagree for the simple fact that from Graendal's POV Cynadane is stronger than her. Moiraine didn't have near the capabilities of Graendal, so this swap wouldn't be possible. Interesting theory though.

[drunkengrizzly]

agreed.  moiraine was noted as being in the same strength class as suaine prior to her being stilled.  cyndane is probably still in the top three as far as living female channelers, so there is really no comparison.

[Firebird]

I like your thinking dbo-WoT. There is no doubt in my mind that Lanfear was killed in Finnland, whether by the Finns themselves or by Moiraine. That is something we'll find out when Moiraine comes back. I like the idea that Moiraine is being held as punishment for bringing Lanfear into their domain. It makes a lot of sense. I don't believe either that Moiraine is stilled, or will have her strength reduced in any way. The whole idea of the "power swap" thing between her and Lanfear I've always felt is just clutching at straws and trying to find any sort of rational argument as to why Cyndane has less strength than Lanfear. It just doesn't seem plausible to me.

 

You've got me thinking though, that maybe it's the "inter-dimensional" aspect that has caused the loss of power. Maybe because Lanfear was trapped in another dimension, somehow the DO couldn't bring her fully back and she lost some of her "essence" (for want of a better word) in Finnland. Maybe this idea is a little "out there", but thought I'd post it anyway for someone else to shoot down in flames.  :D

[FanoLan]

Fun dialogue on Moiraine/Cynfear and ToG.  Couple of thoughts that came to mind.  Whether they will be considered contributions or not, eh.

 

Transmigration to a new body has required death of the previous body every time it's occurred so far.  Fairly safe to assume, therefore, that Lanfear is dead and the DO put her soul in the body now called Cyndane.  Given Lanfear's history of near-traitorous behavior along with the DO's particular sense of humor and undefined (as far as is known) power and it's not a stretch to conclude the DO intentionally caused the diminution in power from Lanfear to Cyndane.  If so, Moiraine will not be similarly impacted, but is still a complete wild-card.

 

IF you assume Moiraine has been stilled, there's no reason to conclude she would therefore be dead.  In addition to the reasons stated above (strong will, reason to believe she would escape, etc.), time lapses much differently in Finnland.  From Moiraine's perspective, any length of time may have passed since she grappled Lanfear through the doorway ter'angreal.

 

There are so many dynamic, strong, active female character in the series, it's not possible for me to name a favorite.  Definitely looking forward to Moiraine's return to Randland and hearing her story of what happened with the Finns.  Then hopefully it's reunions abound for the baddest of the blue - Rand/Matt/Perrin, Nyn/Lan, Elayne, Egwene, Thom and most definitely Siuan.  Would be great to see a post-TG chillax session for Mo and Siuan - "Damn, we done good for two Accepted."

 

Operation ToG should be classic.  With the new, going overboard with the preparations Matt the lead-up might outlast the actual event.

 

 

[benr]

Is it possible that Moiraine was injured severely enough that she couldn't return?

[dbo -WoT-]

I like your thinking dbo-WoT.

 

You've got me thinking though, that maybe it's the "inter-dimensional" aspect that has caused the loss of power. Maybe because Lanfear was trapped in another dimension, somehow the DO couldn't bring her fully back and she lost some of her "essence" (for want of a better word) in Finnland. Maybe this idea is a little "out there", but thought I'd post it anyway for someone else to shoot down in flames.  :D

Thank you to line one  :).

 

Regarding the DO bringing her back, reading Tamyrlin's discussion with Brandon has me thinking the DO can modify the potential of channelers to some extent.

 

Brandon: ...when it comes to this certain character that you are talking about, there is a whole thing where Maria and I exchanged a bunch of emails about this. She had managed to pull some things out of the notes that I had not seen, which is interesting, because I was going off of something else. I did not think that Cyndane should be nearly as powerful as she was put in the books as being, so I had been under the belief that the Dark One was pulling shenanigans…

 

Matt: ...like a little, in essence, let’s say what the Forsaken Lanfear did to Asmodean, you thought maybe the Dark One was doing some similar…shielding…

 

Brandon: …or the other way around…here is a little extra power you can draw upon while I am pleased with you, I can take this away…

 

If he can give them more power, why not be able to take some away as punishment or for other reasons? Maybe the people who are under the impression Lanfear was as strong as Ishamael and LTT are right and the DO decreased her strength somewhat now that Moridin is Nae'blis. This way Nae'blis is the strongest channeler in the DO's following. We all know how the DO feels on having only the strongest represent him. That's just a thought. Another theory is she somehow was almost beyond his range of transmigration and lost some of her strength when he brought her back. Whether this is due to bringing her back from the Finn dimension or something else is up to speculation.

 

Is it possible that Moiraine was injured severely enough that she couldn't return?

Technically yes, it is possible. BS keeps saying we don't know if a rescue attempt is going to happen. Even if it is attempted we don't know if Mat will be able to bring Moiraine back.

Having said that, I think many readers, including me, want to believe that a rescue will happen and Moiraine will come back.

[analyticalkeys]

He went on to state that Lanfear/Cydane's difference in power has nothing to do with the DO, however.

[dbo -WoT-]

He went on to state that Lanfear/Cydane's difference in power has nothing to do with the DO, however.

 

This came from him finding out, via Maria, that Cyndane was actually stronger than he thought. This was from some notes he didn't remember. These presumably had to do with Cyndane's strength and not the limits of the DO, because limits on the DO wouldn't necessarily convince BS that Cyndane was stronger than he thought.

Therefore, I believe what BS originally thought is still possible, and something in the notes gave him the impression the DO is capable of modifying a channelers strength to some extent.

 

Note: Him and Maria exchanged many e-mails over this topic, and Maria wasn't able to convince him until she showed him the new notes. It seems like BS was fairly convinced on Cyndane's strength and indeed thought the DO was capable of what I'm proposing.