WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[DreadLord31]

10 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

See the article I linked to above.

A costume artist’s word (second hand) is your proof? Nah. The way this shows writing/show-running has gone, it’s more likely that they just change their minds & decide that Nynaeve Power explodes and breaks the Adam off. Nynaeve power tantrum fixes all bad ideas previous held… 

 

On the other hand, this show does love its fake-out deaths… and Egwene is due for a death healing from Nynaeve — then “alls square!” 😉 

Edited September 29, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Jaysen Gore]

5 hours ago, Windigo said:

This was well done. I look forward to what they have planned for the future with Anvaere, and some of the theories on what roles she will play, if those pan out then it will really add meaning to some of them.

 

 

Are you both sure she isn't a dark friend? One very clear way to hide her own status would be to sacrifice her son. But as a fellow darkfriend, he's also a competitor, and there's no way anyone would believe she didn't walk in the light if she was willing to reveal her own son. It would be a great move.

[Jaysen Gore]

4 hours ago, Windigo said:

Ok so while not a fan of Lan's arc this season I was not hating on it, as it was more Lan later than Lan earlier in some ways.

But this episode when Lan fakes out and leaves Logain after an implied promise of giving him the key, that made me angry at it, because if there is one thing Lan is at his core it is honorable. I could put up with a softer honorable Lan, but this really bugged me. 

Nah, I'm good with this. I often think good guys don't do enough of this when getting information from bad guys. and it gets Logain sent back to the tower, where he'll possibly be needed for other more important developments.

[DigificWriter]

@DreadLord31 It's literally part of Sharon Gilham's job description to know (or develop) the lore behind the things she's designing. Her statement - second-hand or otherwise - that the collar portion of the a'dam can't be removed while a damane is still alive is as absolutely binding as if the info came from Rafe or Sarah (Nakamura).

 

[Jaysen Gore]

3 hours ago, Mirefox said:

It is especially troubling because he turns around and gives a temporary truce to a FORSAKEN!    Characterization is so inconsistent across the board for most of these characters.

I don't think of it as a temporary truce - I think it's a military man choosing battle at a time of his choosing. He just saw this woman cripple the Amyrlin seat inside 3 seconds, and was leaving with Rand. So go, protect Rand and Moiraine, and live to fight another day. It wasn't a truce. It was more "you can do nothing and come with us, or you can do something, get fed your own sword, die, and do nothing"

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

Thus Siuan and Moraine taking on task at young age is a real character reveal about both of them.  They abandon previous dreams, romances, and comforts to accept this mission to save world.  It defines them in books and foreshadows role of EF5. 

BUT...it does lose something that we don't get to the see that the Tower has a history of using weak reeds to build boats if that's the only thing they have to hand.  The old Amyrlin sent these two out with a switch to kill a bear. as Siuan does 25 years later. They lose the symetry.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

So the Amyrlin now thinks Moiraine is a darkfriend.  Are they setting up a new Moiraine arc for next season where she is hunted down as black ajah?  They fabricated a story to keep her central this season so that may be what is coming next.

 

Perhaps they're giving substance to Moiraine's statement when she meets everyone in Merrilor that she might have been on track to being stilled.  I never understood where that came from.

 

If that is the case, we have a different Moiraine here, one even more closely bonded to the Dragon.

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Aside from briefly killing and then reasuscitating her (Egwene), that really is the  only viable rescue option.

Nope - Nynaeve now has her very own seanchan lady that I'm sure she can ask very politely how to take the collar off, who will be desperate to tell her. They'll take it off, and then put it right back on her, so that Nyn can dress as a suldam (see episode 8 preview) and go get Egwene..

[EmreY]

12 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 

Are you both sure she isn't a dark friend? One very clear way to hide her own status would be to sacrifice her son. But as a fellow darkfriend, he's also a competitor, and there's no way anyone would believe she didn't walk in the light if she was willing to reveal her own son. It would be a great move.

 

The episode was Daes Daemar, after wall.  But goodness your mind goes to dark places. 🙂

[DigificWriter]

Why is it so difficult for some to accept that, in the lore of the show, the collars cannot be removed without first kilking the people wearing them?

Edited September 29, 2023 by DigificWriter

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, DigificWriter said:

Why is it so difficult for some to accept that, in the lore of the show, rhe collars cannot be removed without first kilking the people wearing them?

Same reason people didn't accept the lore in the show that said Moiraine was stilled.

[DigificWriter]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Same reason people didn't accept the lore in the show that said Moiraine was stilled.

 

That's not lore; that's crafting the story from a specific perspective knowing that said perspective is in fact a red herring.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Why is it so difficult for some to accept that, in the lore of the show, the collars cannot be removed without first killing the people wearing them?

Because this has not proven to be true. I will believe it when it is shown to me on screen.

[Jaysen Gore]

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

The episode was Daes Daemar, after wall.  But goodness your mind goes to dark places. 🙂

 

Not that dark; it would be a basic twist over the plot of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, among others, and something someone steeped in the dark and aiming at the throne would be willing to do. After all, we just watched Liandrin sacrifice her child - the reason for swearing to the dark - almost without complaint, if not emotion. 

 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

That's not lore; that's crafting the story from a specific perspective knowing that said perspective is in fact a red herring.

Yeah about that...
Same exact logic applies to the A'dam.

We the viewer were told one thing was true, it must be true because people in the show said it was so (even people outside of the show have said the same things about Moiraine being stilled), and then it turns out to not be true. Red Herring.

[Mirefox]

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Why is it so difficult for some to accept that, in the lore of the show, rhe collars cannot be removed without first kilking the people wearing them?

Because the lore of the show is inconsistent.  Why is that hard to accept?

 

Is Lewd the Dragon or the Dragon Reborn?

 

Is the Shadar Logoth dagger fatal or not?

 

This show has not earned the blind faith that you want to ascribe to it.  The writers can’t do their jobs consistently and you want to die on the hill that a costume director’s word is completely accurate?

[Pandemonium]

Amazing how many characters got rushed through in episode 7.  What's funny is some of the characters in episode 8 will be pretty much showing up out of the blue because they got very little or no screen time.

 

1.  Seamen Valda-- I'm sure he will show up with whitecloaks and conveniently find a way to not be in the main conflict

 

2.  Geoffrey Bornhald-- they probably should have had a scene of him before episode 8, but that's just the way  this show goes.  too many characters too little time

 

3.  Ingtar--  really a bummer that the five ride forth could not have happened.  But considering Ingtar is already in Toman head how could it?  unless they give him at least several minutes of the finale, his darkfriend reveal is not going to have a huge emotional impact 

 

4.  Padan Fain-- I'm sure we are going to see Fain get that dagger by the end, but lots of plot

 

5.  Masema-- I don't think most even know who he is yet but he will get to distinguish himself in battle.

 

6.  Joiya-- our little baldy darkfriend has some role but have no idea what.

 

Lots of stuff to address. hopefully they still land most of the arcs

[SinisterDeath]

What I don't get is why it's so hard to accept that they're sticking to book lore even when it looks like they're not...

E.g. The One power is two sides, Saidar and Saidin. They never named it such in the show yet women cannot see male weaves as highlighted in this episode.
Moiraine being "stilled"... And the "A'dam" only comes off when the user "dies".

[king of nowhere]

14 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Why is it so difficult for some to accept that, in the lore of the show, the collars cannot be removed without first kilking the people wearing them?

i can't accept it because the collar makes it impossible for the damane to change clothes. even if they were to not wash, the cloth would still decay in a few years

[Wassup]

All you have to do to remove the collar is push the damane against the wall, which knocks her out. You can remove the collar at that point. 

[DigificWriter]

Assumptions (a lot of them wrong) about what changes the show has or hasn't made aren't sufficient justification to automatically behave as if everything that we're being told/shown is misleading.

 

In-universe, the show's version of the collar is a seamless unbroken circlet that does not physically open (the physical, practical prop itself would have to).

 

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i can't accept it because the collar makes it impossible for the damane to change clothes. even if they were to not wash, the cloth would still decay in a few years

 

And?

 

That's the point. The damane don't need to be able to change their clothing.

[Guire]

21 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Amazing how many characters got rushed through in episode 7.  What's funny is some of the characters in episode 8 will be pretty much showing up out of the blue because they got very little or no screen time.

 

1.  Seamen Valda-- I'm sure he will show up with whitecloaks and conveniently find a way to not be in the main conflict

 

2.  Geoffrey Bornhald-- they probably should have had a scene of him before episode 8, but that's just the way  this show goes.  too many characters too little time

 

3.  Ingtar--  really a bummer that the five ride forth could not have happened.  But considering Ingtar is already in Toman head how could it?  unless they give him at least several minutes of the finale, his darkfriend reveal is not going to have a huge emotional impact 

 

4.  Padan Fain-- I'm sure we are going to see Fain get that dagger by the end, but lots of plot

 

5.  Masema-- I don't think most even know who he is yet but he will get to distinguish himself in battle.

 

6.  Joiya-- our little baldy darkfriend has some role but have no idea what.

 

Lots of stuff to address. hopefully they still land most of the arcs

Just want to point out that seamen valda is an amazing autocorrect.  I am in full snark mode today and the world keeps refilling my cup.

[Mirefox]

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

What I don't get is why it's so hard to accept that they're sticking to book lore even when it looks like they're not...

E.g. The One power is two sides, Saidar and Saidin. They never named it such in the show yet women cannot see male weaves as highlighted in this episode.
Moiraine being "stilled"... And the "A'dam" only comes off when the user "dies".

 

The Saidar and Saidin is a great example of exactly why its hard to accept that they are sticking to book lore.  The writers went out of their way to obfuscate the point and it is blindingly obvious.  I've already brought this up but from the very moment the show began, Liandrin completely gets it wrong showing that either the writers don't understand the book or they've changed the nature of the One Power for the show.  And if you want to say it is an unreliable narrator issue, then the problems are even bigger and Liandrin is monunmentally stupid.  Moiraine's asinine speech to Rand could have been easily given had she said she can't teach him because men and women use different sides of the power and can't teach each other.  Instead, she gave a nonsensical answer.  The writers had it right there and couldn't bring themselves to say it.  It wasn't until the needed a plot device that they decided to mention a difference - 15 episodes into the show.

 

As for seeing the weaves, they deliberately tried to obfuscate that as well.  They made it look like Logain would possibly see Nyn's weaves.  At no point did they have a character say something like "what is he/she doing?"  Even in this episode they made it look like Siuan could see Rand's weaves.  All until they needed the plot device.

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Gotcha.  So it functioned consistently with the way it works in the show.  Still, Nyn couldn’t have known that.  I’ve got a funny image in my head of Nyn punching her in the throat with it then saying “whoops, wait a second,” while she opens it and tries again.

I would have love Nyn throat punching sul'dam then glaring at Elayne while saying "dammit Elayne you were supposed to channel spirit into it." Then cute to Elayne in best daughter heir expression saying"Oops".

[Agitel]

People thinking Moiraine was only shielded didn't just get lucky. They could have been wrong, true, but her only being shielded wasn't a retcon pulled out of thin air. There were bread crumbs, some more apparent to book readers, that left things murky.

 

The simplest and most logical resolution to the collar is that there is a secret to it that hasn't been revealed yet that allows its removal, and the people in charge don't want to lower the stakes by just telling us before it's shown. Currently the only way out we've been shown so far is that the wearer dying allows it to be removed. It is consistent with the books that there be a simpler way, but it also just makes the most sense, too, rather than have another seeming healing from death occur.

 

I suppose severing would probably work, too. I don't think the show would make shielding have the same effect, that has weird plot ramifications if it does, but who knows.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Agitel