WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[Windigo]

  On 9/25/2023 at 11:48 AM, DreadLord31 said:

I would disagree. He’s done nothing heroic in the show thus far. 

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Other than at the Eye of the World how heroic were any of them in the first couple of books? Mostly they are kids running scared that make mistakes and get by on luck and help from others, they are pulled and tugged by other peoples plots and the pattern.
RJ had a very specific view he talked about in interviews and Q&A's of what is or isn't a hero. 
 

  On 9/25/2023 at 11:48 AM, DreadLord31 said:

I wasn’t commenting on their screen time whatsoever. Rand has gotten a lot of screen time, and Perrin has too. But they aren’t well written or developed & havent “done much” compared to say Nynaeve and Egwene. 

 

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So they flipped it from the books, where Nynaeve, Egwene, Avienda, Mat and Perrin all do mostly nothing, some for several of the first books? Rafe and crew have stated multiple times they adapted the entire series, that means we are not waiting 6 seasons before other characters have importance.

[Windigo]

  On 9/25/2023 at 12:02 PM, king of nowhere said:

More in general, channeling in that fight was done poorly. Doesn't feel what sensible people would do.

The fight was overall good for its emotional impact, but it's very rare for magic fightd ro be well done

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Thing is you have a single healer who can not harm or kill others until her or her Warders's lives are at risk. Healing weaves are the ones she knows best and has strength in, when would she have ever learned anything else to the point she could react in a battle situation?
I think it was great foreshadowing and set up on how the oaths, focus on politics and the appearance of power and strength have made the White Tower weak and in many ways ineffective.  

[DigificWriter]

@DreadLord31 Big picture, the story that Rafe and Co. are telling is still Rand's; how much individual screentime/plot-driving focus he's gotten thus far doesn't change that.

 

The two best comparisons that I can think of to how Rafe and Co. are approaching telling the WoT story are the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy and the aforementioned Swamp Thing.

 

In the former, the overall protagonist - Anakin Skywalker - isn't introduced until about halfway through the first film (the story of which is Padme Amidala's as told from the perspective of first Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and then Anakin), and in the latter, the titular character - Alec Holland/Swamp Thing - is effectively a guest character due to the nature of what happened to him and the various ways in which Abby Arcane interacts with him.

[Kaleb]

  On 9/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, Angydragon said:

I loved the egwene part, but I still don't understand if in the show the sul'dams knows they can channel or not. I think they know and they actively channel, unlike the books, but I'm not sure from where this my convinction comes.

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I'm totally sure they don't understand that they can channel, the sul'dam terminology in the scene where Renna used Egwene to burn that tree is a good example of how they've been acculturated to think of the feeling of channeling without recognizing what it really is. The feeling of being "complete" is actually the feeling of channeling, or at least embracing the Source.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 9/25/2023 at 9:21 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Which is one of my issues with some of the "predestination" of the story. The only real moment of danger to the pattern comes when Rand is sat on the mountain top and can go one of 2 ways, turn into LTT and go on a crazy revenge path ending up with him either working for the shadow, or dead. Or the way he goes.

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Yes, the predestination is kind of tricky, as it is really what undermines the whole book. Without the prophecy of the Dragon, well, we are in whole different ball game. The in-book descriptions of prophecy are pretty dodgy, I think a lot comes down to the culmination at the Last Battle, where really the win-lose criteria should be laid out. I'll need to re-read it again, as I think I blocked most of it out first time round as it is a bit of the cliche of how can a mortal man beat an all-powerful immortal force of evil? By coming out better in a conversation. 

 

Theory for the end-game twist:

  Reveal hidden contents

I am not sure how well this is supported, but it has occurred to me that a lot of the information in the books is the wrong way round. Like with the I WIN AGAIN LEWS THERIN. That is not right, as in those lives, the dragon did not surrender, so the Dark One was not released. The Light wins, except in an incredibly unusual circumstance, that the Prophecy is actually trying to create. Remember the Shadow also has its prophecies, and if they are both coming true, then they are both setting up a confrontation that the Dark One can win. So the prophecy is all about the Dark One, and not about the Dragon saving the world. But I'll have to read the last book again with taking in BLAH BLAH BLAH at the important bits.

 

[king of nowhere]

  On 9/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, Windigo said:

Thing is you have a single healer who can not harm or kill others until her or her Warders's lives are at risk. Healing weaves are the ones she knows best and has strength in, when would she have ever learned anything else to the point she could react in a battle situation?
I think it was great foreshadowing and set up on how the oaths, focus on politics and the appearance of power and strength have made the White Tower weak and in many ways ineffective.  

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and what are the damane doing in that time?

there were, like, 3 damane in place. they should have tried to shield ryma, to capture her. or maybe they could have used offensive waves. or cut at waves used by ryma. i saw none of that. ryma was killing a suldam - in very inefficient ways; even if you're not trained in combat, just throw fire around. if you're particularly weak with fire, throw air blades - and the others were not trying to shield her or stop her.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/25/2023 at 3:26 PM, king of nowhere said:

and what are the damane doing in that time?

there were, like, 3 damane in place. they should have tried to shield ryma, to capture her. or maybe they could have used offensive waves. or cut at waves used by ryma. i saw none of that. ryma was killing a suldam - in very inefficient ways; even if you're not trained in combat, just throw fire around. if you're particularly weak with fire, throw air blades - and the others were not trying to shield her or stop her.

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Right. But I think what they were going for was the notion that Ryma is a yellow and is comfortable with "healing weaves". I don't think it's a coincidence that the way she killed the Sul'dam was reminiscent of death from breakbone fever.

[Rhaze]

  On 9/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, Windigo said:

Thing is you have a single healer who can not harm or kill others until her or her Warders's lives are at risk. Healing weaves are the ones she knows best and has strength in, when would she have ever learned anything else to the point she could react in a battle situation?
I think it was great foreshadowing and set up on how the oaths, focus on politics and the appearance of power and strength have made the White Tower weak and in many ways ineffective.  

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On the flip side, if you know how to heal someone, you most certainly know how not to heal someone.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 9/25/2023 at 3:33 PM, Rhaze said:

On the flip side, if you know how to heal someone, you most certainly know how not to heal someone.

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You also know how to keep them alive while doing it.

[Elendir]

  On 9/25/2023 at 2:50 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Yes, the predestination is kind of tricky, as it is really what undermines the whole book. Without the prophecy of the Dragon, well, we are in whole different ball game. The in-book descriptions of prophecy are pretty dodgy, I think a lot comes down to the culmination at the Last Battle, where really the win-lose criteria should be laid out. I'll need to re-read it again, as I think I blocked most of it out first time round as it is a bit of the cliche of how can a mortal man beat an all-powerful immortal force of evil? By coming out better in a conversation. 

 

Theory for the end-game twist:

  Reveal hidden contents

I am not sure how well this is supported, but it has occurred to me that a lot of the information in the books is the wrong way round. Like with the I WIN AGAIN LEWS THERIN. That is not right, as in those lives, the dragon did not surrender, so the Dark One was not released. The Light wins, except in an incredibly unusual circumstance, that the Prophecy is actually trying to create. Remember the Shadow also has its prophecies, and if they are both coming true, then they are both setting up a confrontation that the Dark One can win. So the prophecy is all about the Dark One, and not about the Dragon saving the world. But I'll have to read the last book again with taking in BLAH BLAH BLAH at the important bits.

 

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Quite often the prophecies in the book are referred to as instructions on how to do something and not that something will definitely happen.

 

Spoiler from book 3:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Example about Calandor:

Aes sedai during the breaking of world created super fortress and they hid san angreal in its herth with behinde traps from one power.

Then they spread around world, that who took sword out of stone will be "next king of England". They sent Dragon to obtain important artefact, which he need to win battle against DO.

Rand wasn't lead by wheel, he was lead by aes sedai from time of breaking. They wrote "manual" and Rand followed it.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Elendir

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes, the prophecies are dealt with somewhat inconsistently, sometimes called things that will announce something, sometimes being a version of Foretelling so it is definitely going to happen, just perhaps it is not fully understood what it is, and other times that it is a possibility only. The real crux of the matter is the last battle as that where it really matters, anything else you could write off as a mistake or continuity error. And I am not sure I am up to re-reading it again so soon, aMoL was not that a pleasant experience for me, though I guess that should mean it can only be better once it is not a surprise....

[swollymammoth]

  On 9/24/2023 at 2:43 PM, Elder_Haman said:

He’s not though. The books are, just like the show, about an ensemble. To the extent that there are “main characters” it is the EFF. Rand is simply the axis 

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Yeah, and Danny Ocean isn't the main character of Ocean's Eleven. Give me a break. Ensemble stories still have main characters. This is such a tired excuse, spoonfed directly by the showrunners so they could justify making Nyneave the main character. 

[Finnssss22]

  On 9/25/2023 at 9:02 AM, Scarloc99 said:

So there is no indication that anything in Seanchan lands was down to Ishy's direct hand, so all the decisions and actions they took where made by those over there without influence. 

It is also interesting that he "corrupted" the K- cycle they took with them, only to have those corrupted prophesies come true in a way that allowed the Dragon to bring the Seanchan on side. 

Yes he got more stuff done then any of the foresaken, but, in many ways he was the most inept because every step he took led inevitably to the Dragon winning, he would almost have been better just staying in bed and doing nothing.

No turning up to see LTT, no dragonmount.

No influence of Hawking, no Seanchan army to help win the last battle, no civil war leading to the political situation Randland found itself in to allow Rand to unite the nation. You really could argue the most busy Foresaken, but in terms of the Last Battle the most ineffective because things would have been better for the dark if he had just done nothing. 

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You're kinda missing the point here and being extremely shortsighted.

That Ishy is literally the creator of the Seanchan and the reason they exist was the point. What's more is he made sure through his tampering of the K-cycle that when they did return to Randland, they would automatically be in conflict.

And even all this was actually secondary to his real objective which was to send away any of Hawkwing's heirs strong enough or capable enough of holding his Empire together after his passing. Then he made sure Hawkwing passed before any of the remaining heirs could amass enough control or influence to hold it together either.

The result was the War of the Hundred Years and Randland once again splintered. By the time the Dragon was reborn, there was absolutely zero chance of Randland being an united continent with any real advanced level of technology or knowledge.

And let's not forget that making the AS have to swear on the Oath Rod literally cut all their lifespans in half from that point onward.

 

The statement that the villain shoulda just stayed home because the hero overcame all the traps and obstacles he put in place is ridiculous. IT'S QUITE LITERALLY WHAT THE HERO IS SUPPOSED TO DO!

 

Sauron never should've made the Rings in the first place because the One Ring is going to get destroyed and you will be defeated anyway, stay home big fella, don't bother.

The Knightking never shoulda bothered making other Whitewalkers or raising an army of undead or crossing the Wall because he was just going to be defeated and killed anyway. Naw dude, just find a nice cave to relax in, it's all good.

What do you mean the good guys won and the bad guys lost, that's preposterous, unheard of, a total shocker!!! 
C'mon now...

 

No offence but you actually sound ridiculous, sorry but you do.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Windigo]

  On 9/25/2023 at 3:33 PM, Rhaze said:

On the flip side, if you know how to heal someone, you most certainly know how not to heal someone.

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That is what I was attempting to say, she used what she knows best, as she just told Nynaeve don't think about it you just do it, battle is not a time to have to take time to think about new or different weaves.

[Kaleb]

Rand is narratively depowered from the books mostly because we are seeing the story through everybody else's eyes rather than overwhelmingly his. To this point in the books, almost all the other characters don't see him as anything other than a hayseed/hometown friend, a mysterious outland lord, or someone the Tower is apparently boosting for their own purposes.

 

*Yes, they skipped his TEOTW climax, but that a mess in the books too and I'm glad they did it the way they did because the "I need the hero to have his massive hero moment right now!" applied to RJ's need to publish the first novel, and it would get in the way of making a coherent and powerful version of the full series on TV. 

[Windigo]

  On 9/25/2023 at 7:06 PM, Finnssss22 said:

And let's not forget that making the AS have to swear on the Oath Rod literally cut all their lifespans in half from that point onward.

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It also had the effect of limiting the AS's knowledge over time of battle weaves, or how to make weapons, or even develop anything new along those lines. 
The oaths basically were another way to control the Aes Sedai, though not as brutal as the a'dam it had some similar consequences.
 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/25/2023 at 6:57 PM, swollymammoth said:

Yeah, and Danny Ocean isn't the main character of Ocean's Eleven. Give me a break. Ensemble stories still have main characters. This is such a tired excuse, spoonfed directly by the showrunners so they could justify making Nyneave the main character. 

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The story is about Rand. It has several main characters whose development is seen in how they respond to Rand. Yes, clearly Rand is the central figure in the story. But he is not the "main character" in the sense that John McLaine is the main character in "Die Hard". That's the only point that I'm making.

 

And it seems @Kaleb made my point far more eloquently above...

Edited September 25, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/25/2023 at 6:57 PM, swollymammoth said:

so they could justify making Nyneave the main character.

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LMFAO. Nynaeve is not the main character. 

[DreadLord31]

  On 9/25/2023 at 6:57 PM, swollymammoth said:

Yeah, and Danny Ocean isn't the main character of Ocean's Eleven. Give me a break. Ensemble stories still have main characters. This is such a tired excuse, spoonfed directly by the showrunners so they could justify making Nyneave the main character. 

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Thank you. And I agree. 
Though, I conceded even in my statement that it was pitched as 8 seasons, so WAFO… I believe that’s what @DigificWriter is arguing, that eventually it’ll shift and be clear that though there’s an ensemble & more up front focus is given to Moiraine and the girls, eventually it’ll be clear that Rand is the central character? And maybe even in this finale he’ll do something? 
 

At this point I would think it’s more likely that he loses to Turok, is stabbed by Fain; Nynaeve steps in, blocked of the power but beats Turok with a sword & Egwene breaks free single-handedly and blows the horn. But… we’ll see 🤪

[Windigo]

  On 9/25/2023 at 3:26 PM, king of nowhere said:

and what are the damane doing in that time?

there were, like, 3 damane in place. they should have tried to shield ryma, to capture her. or maybe they could have used offensive waves. or cut at waves used by ryma. i saw none of that. ryma was killing a suldam - in very inefficient ways; even if you're not trained in combat, just throw fire around. if you're particularly weak with fire, throw air blades - and the others were not trying to shield her or stop her.

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When they first start there is only 1 damane, it is later after they start fighting that more arrive with additional soldiers. 

[Finnssss22]

  On 9/25/2023 at 7:16 PM, Windigo said:

It also had the effect of limiting the AS's knowledge over time of battle weaves, or how to make weapons, or even develop anything new along those lines. 
The oaths basically were another way to control the Aes Sedai, though not as brutal as the a'dam it had some similar consequences.
 

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Exactly. Nothing Ishamael put into motion was just in the short term. Everything he did had very long-term ramifications. 

We used to debate and speculate all the time what Ishy was.

Was he a dreamer, did he have the foretelling ability, did he remember past lives or was it a combination of 2 or all 3?

Personally I always believed he was a Dreamer as I always thought that explanation had the most backing. Not that there wasn't backing for the other options though, just that Dreamer seemed to hold the most. There also isn't enough to completely contradict the other options. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Finnssss22]

  On 9/25/2023 at 3:33 PM, Rhaze said:

On the flip side, if you know how to heal someone, you most certainly know how not to heal someone.

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Never more evident than with Semirhage who went from being one the greatest healers in the AoL to being the nastiest and most effective interrogators and torturers alive.

[Windigo]

  On 9/25/2023 at 7:56 PM, Finnssss22 said:

Exactly. Nothing Ishamael put into motion was just in the short term. Everything he did had very long-term ramifications. 

We used to debate and speculate all the time what Ishy was.

Was he a dreamer, did he have the foretelling ability, did he remember past lives or was it a combination of 2 or all 3?

Personally I always believed he was a Dreamer as I always thought that explanation had the most backing. Not that there wasn't backing for the other options though, just that Dreamer seemed to hold the most. There also isn't enough to completely contradict the other options. 

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I remember many conversations, the Dreamer one is a solid theory. 
I tended to align more with foretelling or some other ability to read the pattern. 

 

[Elendir]

  On 9/25/2023 at 7:07 PM, Kaleb said:

Rand is narratively depowered from the books mostly because we are seeing the story through everybody else's eyes rather than overwhelmingly his. To this point in the books, almost all the other characters don't see him as anything other than a hayseed/hometown friend, a mysterious outland lord, or someone the Tower is apparently boosting for their own purposes.

 

*Yes, they skipped his TEOTW climax, but that a mess in the books too and I'm glad they did it the way they did because the "I need the hero to have his massive hero moment right now!" applied to RJ's need to publish the first novel, and it would get in the way of making a coherent and powerful version of the full series on TV. 

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While some see Rand's character weakened by depriving him of his super heroic moments. Some of us are unhappy that he lost his Rand ordinary shepherd moments.

 

Building his character before he "became" Dragon reborn. He didn't get Hurin endless loyalty by being messiah.

[Ralph]

  On 9/25/2023 at 11:48 AM, DreadLord31 said:

 

 

But I’m definitely not alone in my opinion that this is a White Tower, Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Egwene centric adaptation so far. 
 

I mean, consider the choice to have Nynaeve fight two Warders in the tower rather than Matt. Or Nynaeve and Egwene be the heroes of the S1 finale —wiping out the trolloc army —rather than Rand. Or to have Avi step in front of Perrin to fight Whitecloaks. Or to have Moiraine kill one Fade alone & have Lan lose to two Fades. You’re really gonna claim that (thus far) the EF boys are the heroes of the story?? 
 

Now again…we may, perhaps even probably will, get there … if we get enough seasons. But there’s been 0 - heck yeah - moments for the EF boys. 

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I am sure you are not alone, but none of your examples happened except the Moiraine one, and I'm not sure how you see diminution of Lan there. two (or three) fades at once are a challenging opponent for anyone, especially at night, and in the books it is considered a tremendous feat when Lan does defeat such much later on