WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

2) Rand is the main character

He’s not though. The books are, just like the show, about an ensemble. To the extent that there are “main characters” it is the EFF. Rand is simply the axis 

 

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

3) The Whitecloaks and Seanchan and Aiel and Traveling People and Aes Sedai aren’t all black and white, they’re ideologies lead them to do certain things that are both good and evil (the whole story is about balance and the tug-of-war between good and evil in all of us). So rather than comic book, laughing Seanchan (and especially WC) humanize them.

They’ve started to do this for the white cloaks (Dain giving water to Avi, Geoffram allowing Moiraine to ride on) and even a little with the Seanchan (Turak’s speech about the victory of the light). 

 

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

4) it’s a story about how innocent, naive small town kids would react to being told they’re suppose to save the world 

How do you feel this has changed? Because I very much feel this vibe. 

 

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

5) you WILL ruin the story if you make Moiraine the central character of the whole thing 

The have not made her the main character. They are keeping her in the story, rather than allowing her to entirely disappear. 

 

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

7) Matt is a nothing burger who keeps bailing on his friends

They’re clearly going to give him a moment this season. Blowing the Horn will give them the opportunity to kickstart his character (which, tbh, is pretty much where Mat started coming into his own in the books.)

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

4) it’s a story about how innocent, naive small town kids would react to being told they’re suppose to save the world 

How do you feel this has changed? Because I very much feel this vibe. 

I think this changed quite a bit, there is still a vibe about them being from the Two Rivers which is a backwater, but they no where near as young, or inexperienced, or innocent as RJ made them. Which I don't think is a bad thing, even the books have them maturing pretty quickly, Mat being a case in point that suddenly he is a drinker, smoker and gambler, who likes cornering willing serving girls in quiet corners. Where as before they were as pure as driven snow and had zero experience outside farming/blacksmithing.

[Elendir]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Is it? He influenced Arthur Hawking, but I have not seen in the background material that he directly influenced the invasion of Seanchan lands once it happened, I might be wrong, but he seemed to be tied to Randland while he was trapped in the bore and so the most he could do was "inspire" the invasion of the seanchan lands (you would think maybe to get rid of a load of soldiers and weaken hawkwings armies). but once the invasion happened foresaken direct influence didn't happen until the seals where weakened and they all became free? 
I might have missed something in the background material or an interview somewhere though that clarifies this. 

 

Ishy is responsible for building and maintaining all dark societies during his free times out of prison.

Post you are responding to, looks like Ishys intervened directly, something I wouldn't agree with. But you can make Ishy responsible through chain of events.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Elendir

[DigificWriter]

13 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

 

I wasn't trying to pass up any kind of judgment, or to be offended, or anything like that. I merely wanted to rationally explain the actual relationship between those kink elements and the actual thing, from a psycological and historical perspective.

 

👍

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

they no where near as young, or inexperienced, or innocent as RJ made them.

Idk. Other than making them slightly older and more sexually experienced, all of the characters still seem pretty naive. 
 

Rand was easily seduced, Egwene is still the teacher’s pet, believing in the good of the Tower, Perrin is timid and unsure of himself, etc. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[DigificWriter]

40 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

They have not made her the main character.

 

Rafe and Rosamund would dispute that.

 

Making her the Series Lead hasn't changed the fact that the story being told is still, ultimately, Rand's, though.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

26 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Idk. Other than making them slightly older and more sexually experienced, all of the characters still seem pretty naive. 
 

Rand was easily seduced, Egwene is still the teacher’s pet, believing in the good of the Tower, Perrin is timid and unsure of himself, etc. 

Of course, it is interpretation, and definitely not saying that mine is superior to any one else's. But take for example, Mat planning to let a trapped badger out onto the green, and telling made-up stories to younger kids and flouring Master Luhan's dogs to back-up the story of ghost hounds in the books with the show, and I would say we are really talking about an order of magnitude of difference in life experience, and then some. But course, no reason for you to see it in the same light.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Of course, it is interpretation, and definitely not saying that mine is superior to any one else's. But take for example, Mat planning to let a trapped badger out onto the green, and telling made-up stories to younger kids and flouring Master Luhan's dogs to back-up the story of ghost hounds in the books with the show, and I would say we are really talking about an order of magnitude of difference in life experience, and then some. But course, no reason for you to see it in the same light.

I see where you’re coming from. But I see it more as a change in the nature of the Two Rivers. I think the writers were deliberately trying to make it “not the Shire” to veer away from that particular fantasy trope. 
 

If the Two Rivers is not an idyllic place as described in the books, but rather just a regular old backwater, Mat’s antics with the badger just don’t play as well. 

[Jaysen Gore]

5 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Seanchan sucked in the books and will hopefully continue to suck in the show. They are not good guys

 

I agree with the sentiment, but I also think Scarloc is right - there is a different emotion evoked from seeing it than reading about it. And while the books show one Seanchan person go through the journey of seeing Aes Sedai as people (the ship captain whose name I can't remember), and not dogs, she is very much in the minority, and does nothing for the audience to prepare for the end of the Seanchan story. Nor is there any guarantee she makes it into the series.

 

I will be curious - if we get there - if the audience ends up taking Aridhol's position

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Jaysen Gore said:

the ship captain whose name I can't remember

Egeanin. 

[Pandemonium]

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Are you suggesting that Moiraine, who has not been in the tower for 20 years, knows how to train and mould an amirylian seat? No, Moiraine is blocked off, in the same way Liandrin will be later on. This then allows the viewer to understand how this is a worse ounishemt for failing a foresaken the killing her while also making sure Moiraine can't mary sue her way through episode 2 and has a dose of much needed reality. Siuan will be the one to guide Egwene as she does in the books, 

I never suggested who would train Egwene.  We shall see what happens, no one really knows with this show.  Will Sophie Okonedo even be available years down the line,  and will the show even want to pay her?  She was barely available for season 2.  Rafe said to expect more deaths in the show than the books.  I don't know who will die, but some people are going to get axed out early.  Will Siuan be one of them?  

[DigificWriter]

59 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

She was barely available for season 2

 

Which would have been accounted for in her Series Regular contract.

[king of nowhere]

by the way, anyone else bothered by how damane can change their clothing? that chest piece that comes from the collar prevents it, and even assuming they do not wash, or they wash with the power, the clothes will still crumble over time. plus, they will need summer and winter gear.

 

it's pretty easy to explain, maybe that chest piece can be retracted by a suldam while keeping the collar. however, i would like to get an explanation.

[Finnssss22]

12 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Is it? He influenced Arthur Hawking, but I have not seen in the background material that he directly influenced the invasion of Seanchan lands once it happened, I might be wrong, but he seemed to be tied to Randland while he was trapped in the bore and so the most he could do was "inspire" the invasion of the seanchan lands (you would think maybe to get rid of a load of soldiers and weaken hawkwings armies). but once the invasion happened foresaken direct influence didn't happen until the seals where weakened and they all became free? 
I might have missed something in the background material or an interview somewhere though that clarifies this. 

Ishamael was free for about 40 years every 1000.

First time was tEotW prologue visiting LTT and temporarily removing his insanity causing the formation of Dragon Mount.

Second time was when he organized and ran the Trolloc Wars splintering the Nation's that had been built after the Breaking and raided the White Tower destroying and taking away a ton of history, knowledge and items of power.

Third was as Hawkwing's main advisor. He fed Hawkwing's distrust of the AS, convinced him to seige the Tower and planted the idea of them having them have to swear on the Oath Rod. He convinced Hawkwing to send half his army away to what is now Seanchan while also altering/corrupting the copies if the K-cycle they took with them.

It is also widely believed Ishamael was responsible for Hawkwing's failing health in the end.

Last time was just after Rand was born when he killed the BA sister (name escapes me ATM) responsible for sending out the hunting parties for any child born around when Rand was.

Forged Lan's cousin and Rand's uncle into Slayer.

Tortured and used Jain Farstrider to set the path for Moiraine and company to go to the Eye.

 

This is why when I see polls about who was the most effective Forsaken I just laugh if Ishy isn't at 100%.

Ishamael is quite literally responsible for the way the vast majority of the World is today.

It's actually insane and this is only off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more I didn't include.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Finnssss22

[DreadLord31]

13 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

To the extent that there are “main characters” it is the EFF. Rand is simply the axis 

“Simply the axis” IS what I would call “the main character”. He’s the Dragon. Hello? So IF you were doing an adaptation in which you had to cut a lot out because of time constraints (so exactly the scenario we were always going to have with WoT). Which characters arc can you absolutely not cut out and still have it be WoT? … Rand, the Dragon flaming Reborn. I’m not disagreeing with either of you that all the EF5 get a lot of time & have essential arcs. It’s what 12,000 pages or something? But Rand is the main character. 

 

12 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe and Rosamund would dispute that.

 

Making her the Series Lead hasn't changed the fact that the story being told is still, ultimately, Rand's, though.

So this is fascinating to me … I totally agree with you, that yes - they’ve pretty much directly said that “Moiraine is the main character” — but I couldn’t disagree with you more that the story being told is “ultimately Rands”. If it was - then he wouldn’t be less interesting than Liandrin as we approach 2 out of (at max) 8 seasons in the bag. So we’re almost 1/4 done, best case scenario, and I’d bet against Matt Cauthon even - that if you polled 1000 Tv viewers: causal book fans, hard-care fandom people, and non-reader watchers all included- you’d get less than 100 that would say “it’s Rand’s story that is being told”. And I’d bet you get less than 10 that would say “Rand is my favorite character so far.” 
 

On the flip side I’d bet that if you used the same 1000 people and asked: Which Tv WoT character do you think is best developed, acted, and interesting? It’d go something like this: 

1) Nynaeve 

2) Liandrin 

3) Egwene 

4) Lanfear

5) Isha’mael 

 

And that’s why I’m becoming a Tv Darkfriend, LoL. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DigificWriter]

18 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

“Simply the axis” IS what I would call “the main character”. He’s the Dragon. Hello? So IF you were doing an adaptation in which you had to cut a lot out because of time constraints (so exactly the scenario we were always going to have with WoT). Which characters arc can you absolutely not cut out and still have it be WoT? … Rand, the Dragon flaming Reborn. I’m not disagreeing with either of you that all the EF5 get a lot of time & have essential arcs. It’s what 12,000 pages or something? But Rand is the main character. 

 

So this is fascinating to me … I totally agree with you, that yes - they’ve pretty much directly said that “Moiraine is the main character” — but I couldn’t disagree with you more that the story being told is “ultimately Rands”. If it was - then he wouldn’t be less interesting than Liandrin as we approach 2 out of (at max) 8 seasons in the bag. So we’re almost 1/4 done, best case scenario, and I’d bet against Matt Cauthon even - that if you polled 1000 Tv viewers: causal book fans, hard-care fandom people, and non-reader watchers all included- you’d get less than 100 that would say “it’s Rand’s story that is being told”. And I’d bet you get less than 10 that would say “Rand is my favorite character so far.” 
 

On the flip side I’d bet that if you used the same 1000 people and asked: Which Tv WoT character do you think is best developed, acted, and interesting? It’d go something like this: 

1) Nynaeve 

2) Liandrin 

3) Egwene 

4) Lanfear

5) Isha’mael 

 

And that’s why I’m becoming a Tv Darkfriend, LoL. 

 

Even if audiences have not yet connected with Rand, we do know from Rafe, Sarah, and others that he's still the hero that Robert Jordan wrote him as.

 

Making Moiraine the Series Lead and narrator doesn't change that fact any more than making Abby Arcane the Series Lead and narrator of the 2019 Swamp Thing series changed the fact that the story being told was Alec Holland's.

[A Memory Of Why]

@DreadLord31 (quotes aren't liking me, this is referring your last comment)

 

Reddits resident Brown has been doing some stats for the show, interestingly for season two so far, the top 5 characters vs screen time includes four of the E5.

 

Link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/16pmm6j/wot_s2_e16_character_scene_time_word_counts_and/

Edited September 25, 2023 by A Memory Of Why

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Ishamael was free for about 40 years every 1000.

First time was tEotW prologue visiting LTT and temporarily removing his insanity causing the formation of Dragon Mount.

Second time was when he organized and ran the Trolloc Wars splintering the Nation's that had been built after the Breaking and raided the White Tower destroying and taking away a ton of history, knowledge and items of power.

Third was as Hawkwing's main advisor. He fed Hawkwing's distrust of the AS, convinced him to seige the Tower and planted the idea of them having them have to swear on the Oath Rod. He convinced Hawkwing to send half his army away to what is now Seanchan while also altering/corrupting the copies if the K-cycle they took with them.

It is also widely believed Ishamael was responsible for Hawkwing's failing health in the end.

Last time was just after Rand was born when he killed the BA sister (name escapes me ATM) responsible for sending out the hunting parties for any child born around when Rand was.

Forged Lan's cousin and Rand's uncle into Slayer.

Tortured and used Jain Farstrider to set the path for Moiraine and company to go to the Eye.

 

This is why when I see polls about who was the most effective Forsaken I just laugh if Ishy isn't at 100%.

Ishamael is quite literally responsible for the way the vast majority of the World is today.

It's actually insane and this is only off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more I didn't include.

So there is no indication that anything in Seanchan lands was down to Ishy's direct hand, so all the decisions and actions they took where made by those over there without influence. 

It is also interesting that he "corrupted" the K- cycle they took with them, only to have those corrupted prophesies come true in a way that allowed the Dragon to bring the Seanchan on side. 

Yes he got more stuff done then any of the foresaken, but, in many ways he was the most inept because every step he took led inevitably to the Dragon winning, he would almost have been better just staying in bed and doing nothing.

No turning up to see LTT, no dragonmount.

No influence of Hawking, no Seanchan army to help win the last battle, no civil war leading to the political situation Randland found itself in to allow Rand to unite the nation. You really could argue the most busy Foresaken, but in terms of the Last Battle the most ineffective because things would have been better for the dark if he had just done nothing. 

[A Memory Of Why]

8 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

So there is no indication that anything in Seanchan lands was down to Ishy's direct hand, so all the decisions and actions they took where made by those over there without influence. 

It is also interesting that he "corrupted" the K- cycle they took with them, only to have those corrupted prophesies come true in a way that allowed the Dragon to bring the Seanchan on side. 

Yes he got more stuff done then any of the foresaken, but, in many ways he was the most inept because every step he took led inevitably to the Dragon winning, he would almost have been better just staying in bed and doing nothing.

No turning up to see LTT, no dragonmount.

No influence of Hawking, no Seanchan army to help win the last battle, no civil war leading to the political situation Randland found itself in to allow Rand to unite the nation. You really could argue the most busy Foresaken, but in terms of the Last Battle the most ineffective because things would have been better for the dark if he had just done nothing. 

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills dude 😉

 

Cool thought though, it doesn't matter what the shadow does the "Wheel" compensates so the shadow never can win..

 

Poor Ishy 🥲

[Scarloc99]

5 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills dude 😉

 

Cool thought though, it doesn't matter what the shadow does the "Wheel" compensates so the shadow never can win..

 

Poor Ishy 🥲

Which is one of my issues with some of the "predestination" of the story. The only real moment of danger to the pattern comes when Rand is sat on the mountain top and can go one of 2 ways, turn into LTT and go on a crazy revenge path ending up with him either working for the shadow, or dead. Or the way he goes. There is not real "choice" for any of the main characters. but that is an entirely different conversation (it does feed into my idea that the planet Earth was constructed to be the prison and the rest of the universe carries on regardless, teaming and full of life neve worried about the dark lord's release because the prison planet has that in hand). 

[DaddyFinn]

A huge shoutout to this episode's soundtrack. It's unbelievable

[DaddyFinn]

Ryma could have killed more damane&sul'dam but decided to hurt as much as possible the one who killed Basan. That's tough

[DreadLord31]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Rand, we do know from Rafe, Sarah, and others that he's still the hero that Robert Jordan wrote him as.

I would disagree. He’s done nothing heroic in the show thus far. 

 

4 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Reddits resident Brown has been doing some stats for the show, interestingly for season two so far, the top 5 characters vs screen time includes four of the E5.

I wasn’t commenting on their screen time whatsoever. Rand has gotten a lot of screen time, and Perrin has too. But they aren’t well written or developed & havent “done much” compared to say Nynaeve and Egwene. 
 

But I do understand that it was pitched as 8 seasons. So it is entirely possible that the first two seasons are set-up for the next 6. IF, as they have said, season 3 more directly lines up with book 4. My whole attitude about the first two seasons is going to dramatically improve. 
 

But I’m definitely not alone in my opinion that this is a White Tower, Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Egwene centric adaptation so far. 
 

I mean, consider the choice to have Nynaeve fight two Warders in the tower rather than Matt. Or Nynaeve and Egwene be the heroes of the S1 finale —wiping out the trolloc army —rather than Rand. Or to have Avi step in front of Perrin to fight Whitecloaks. Or to have Moiraine kill one Fade alone & have Lan lose to two Fades. You’re really gonna claim that (thus far) the EF boys are the heroes of the story?? 
 

Now again…we may, perhaps even probably will, get there … if we get enough seasons. But there’s been 0 - heck yeah - moments for the EF boys. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by DreadLord31

[king of nowhere]

32 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Ryma could have killed more damane&sul'dam but decided to hurt as much as possible the one who killed Basan. That's tough

More in general, channeling in that fight was done poorly. Doesn't feel what sensible people would do.

The fight was overall good for its emotional impact, but it's very rare for magic fightd ro be well done

[Angydragon]

this is the first episode of the series that I enjoyed fully and truly, at last!

I loved the egwene part, but I still don't understand if in the show the sul'dams knows they can channel or not. I think they know and they actively channel, unlike the books, but I'm not sure from where this my convinction comes.