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As Ali on the Wheel Takes podcast is fond of saying, unanswered questions are the lifeblood of television writing. Answer a question definitively and any plot points related to it can quickly become far less compelling. For one famous example, David Lynch never wanted viewers to know who killed Laura Palmer, and when Twin Peaks was forced by the execs to reveal that answer early in the second season, it left the show reeling until they re-focused on the Black Lodge by the end of that long and weirdly boring season. As you note, Robert Jordan's books are full of that same dynamic. The unanswered questions about the history and lore, and some of the loose character threads that never get resolved, are part of why re-reads are so much fun. As it is, we readers perk up (in annoyance, perhaps!) when we hear the show refer to LTT as The Dragon Reborn: We're asking "why?" again, just like the new show-only audience. To be clear, I'm not suggesting using this terminology was necessary or a good choice, I'm just explaining why it might have been made, and why it doesn't bother me or give any kind of indication that the writers don't know the book story.

That's exactly the kind of thing that smacks of exec non-reader decisions. "This world is all about reincarnation, right? And everybody knows there's always a Dragon that will save the world, right? So that's always the Dragon Reborn!" Again, saying that the writers don't respect the source material is so insulting at this point. They're taking an incredibly complex story and putting it on screen amid all kinds of real-world considerations like expat detailed above, and one obstacle is clearly questionable storytelling decisions imposed by people well above the showrunner level. There's so much love and deep knowledge of the books visible throughout every episode that the personal insults to the creative team seem just petty. Also again, nothing in what I wrote above means people shouldn't critique the show. Just do it without insulting the commitment of the people who are making it happen, please?

It's not just relative to their paygrades, it's that WoT has always been widely judged to be unadaptable to film/tv by virtually anybody who has any expertise in that field. We're getting a valiant effort at it from Rafe and company, and you can see where they succeed and where they fail. A different team would have faced different pitfalls, assuming there's even another team that would have put in the effort to make this show happen. Red Eagle hasn't been very successful in courting projects that get beyond the "we had a great meeting!" phase. This is the bit I wanted to highlight, it's the focus that matters. Yeah, these writers and producers have made choices that I question, but I love how they've always made an obvious effort to ground those divergences in the story and world shown in the books.

Brandon Sanderson tried (very hard) to change one character arc on the Wheel of Time show "Sorry about Perrin on the show," he told the massive crowd of people, "It's not my fault. I tried. Oh, how I tried..." "There are certain things," said the Stormlight Archives scribe, "Certain forces moving. You know that Jeff Bezos, at one point, said, 'I want Game of Thrones, buy it for me.' And they were like, 'You can't have Game of Thrones,’ and he was like, 'Buy me something that is my Game of Thrones' And there are certain forces at work." Apparently, those 'forces' made choices about the character of Perrin Aybara ("my boy Perrin," Sanderson calls him), that Sanderson didn't agree with. So when he found out about the show's intentions, Sanderson came up with an idea of his own and brought it to showrunner Rafe Judkins. "Rafe really went to bat for me," Sanderson says. "I presented a completely different thing to do with Perrin that would still get what they wanted. Minor spoilers for the television show’s first episode - but instead of the first big event that happens, [my idea was] what if he wounds Master Luhhan? He's worried about the rage inside of him - you can get all the same beats without doing the thing that you did, and then he also won't be traumatized for the entire first season. And he can actually go on fun adventures with friends." But despite all of Sanderson's credibility with the Wheel of Time series (not to mention the fantasy genre as a whole) and the fact that the showrunner was on his side, his idea was scrapped. "They took it all the way to the higher-ups and fought for my version of it," Sanderson told the crowd, "and they said no."

https://www.wotseries.com/2024/04/26/thandi-sebe-joins-season-3-of-the-wheel-of-time/ LIGHT BE PRAISED!!! Can't wait to see this episode, I re-read those Rhuidean columns chapters just on their own like 20 times. "Actor Thandi Sebe joins the cast of The Wheel of Time for its third season. According to the actor’s resume, she will play the role of Solinda, an Aes Sedai from the time of the Breaking of the World." Spoiler for those who haven't read The Shadow Rising

Reductio ad hitlerum, really? Godwin's Law now in play!

This bit is basically the definition of gatekeeping, the equivalent of challenging someone wearing a band t-shirt you don't think they actually listen to to name their top three songs. "Modern audiences" are indeed watching WoT on Prime, and in turn the books are selling more than they have in years. Yes, there's social media content that's part of the pop culture churn with hot takes and takedowns and culture-war rage-bait, but this adaptation is clearly resulting in many show-WoT fans who go on to read the books. Navigating all this hype can definitely be exhausting, but if we want lots of new people to engage with the story, it's one of the most effective ways to hook them.

Ok, cool, all good. The real genesis of Perrin's guilt over the axe in the books is the chapter where he wrestles with mercy-killing Egwene if the ravens catch them, immediately after he and Egwene leave the Tinkers with Elyas and before they meet the Whitecloaks in the stedding. In the books, his guilt emerges immediately after Perrin learns of the Way Of The Leaf, but as I remember it the focus is at least as much on Elyas' warning about being comfortable with the axe as it is about pacifism. It's one of those entirely-internal things that people have so frequently noted makes him a difficult character to script. Bringing that axe-related guilt earlier in the story so it's a clear subtext to his discussion with the Tinkers makes a lot of sense for that reason. Definitely a change though, and it's clear the show didn't stick the landing with their execution. Big-picture, I love the books because Jordan himself drew from such a wide variety of literary and mythological sources that so many themes are seriously investigated and developed, it's a joy to pick up any of the threads from lost innocence to feminist egalitarianism to moral absolutism to the relative importance of individualism vs community-building and consensus. There's the Arthurian symbolism including the sword in the stone for sure. Telling a compressed story visually necessitates choosing to emphasize some themes more than others and at different points in the story, and it's not an easy task. I think the show's production team has shown they're well-versed in all of the themes and are making an effort to engage every important thread seriously, even when other book readers would legitimately prioritize and emphasize them in other hierarchies. It's a big messy story, and that in itself is beautiful and worthy of multiple celebrations. I genuinely hope the Prime adaptation is successful because it will set up the next generation's adaptation, maybe even sooner than that.

I'm also responding to this sentence in a previous comment: "The original Wheel of Time story from the books isn't engaging any new perspectives because it isn't contained in the show." So, a big part of the reason I'm reticent to discuss potential deal-breaker events in future episodes is because you are arguing that a show that has already included these key scenes and events somehow doesn't qualify as The Wheel Of Time: Winternight Shadar Logoth Rand channeling his way out of a darkfriend trap at an Andoran inn A guilt-ridden Perrin becoming enamored of the Tinkers and their Way Of The Leaf Rand meeting Loial in a library Moiraine healing Mat from the Shadar Logoth dagger Taking the Ways to Fal Dara Rand battling Ishamael (who he believes to be the literal Dark One) at the Eye Of The World Novice training in the White Tower Perrin and the Shienarans tracking Padan Fain and the Horn of Valere, including a Fade nailed to a door Nynaeve's Accepted test Elyas and Hopper Liandrin delivering Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne to the Seanchan, with Nynaeve and Elayne escaping Damane training for Egwene Nynaeve and Elayne learning about the a'dam and capturing a sul'dam Mat blowing the Horn Of Valere to summon an army of dead heroes The show has included all of these book scenes (and many more!) and you have the nerve to argue that it's not WoT? That it's actually some different story? This is why it feels like we're talking past each other, like a bad-faith argument. I fervently hope and am confident that Season 3 will bring us Rhuidean and the revealing of Rand as the car'a'carn. I believe that we will see the Battle Of The Two Rivers, with Perrin and Dain Bornhald as antagonists, and including Aram choosing the sword. What details will you need to see to accept it as the story of The Wheel Of Time? Or has that ship sailed? And if it has, what is your purpose in challenging my view that this adaptation of the story clearly deserves its name?

Please forgive us for misunderstanding your comment earlier in this thread: I'm not claiming these are necessarily contradictions, btw. It's just that your earlier comment can easily be read to imply that you watched the show and then listened to the audiobooks because you enjoyed the show. Your latest comment regarding your workmate's wife confuses things, but it's entirely probable that she recommended the books first, then you checked out the TV series and then got the audiobooks. All good!

I didn't say that though. I said "Instead, I am looking for the characters and the relationships between them to reflect their development as in the books, and that could be done in any number of ways." And then I went through elements of the world that are key as well as a checklist of the main characters that are among those whose development must reflect what happened in the books. And despite some changes, I do see that overall development happening in the show according to many events that are either exactly from the books or clear analogs for and composites of the book events.

The canon of a work of fiction is "the body of works taking place in a particular fictional world that are widely considered to be official or authoritative; [especially] those created by the original author or developer of the world" I used the examples of Harry Potter, LOTR and the Gospels. Gospels - 4 canon versions (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), dozens more unofficial and unauthorized by the Church. There's an argument to be made that at least some of the translations result in additional variations of the 4 canon versions themselves. LOTR - Tolkien's books are canon, and Peter Jackson's trilogy is an officially authorized version that is often referred to as "film canon" Harry Potter - same as Tolkien, Rowling's books are canon, then there is the "film canon" based on the movies. As in LOTR and HP, WoT now has its own "film/tv canon" that is officially authorized. That's all I'm saying, and that I'm happy all these versions exist because they provide concrete contrasts to enrich discussion of the characters, events and themes in these stories.

There are still Tolkien fans who consider Peter Jackson's adaptation to be "fan fiction." I generally think the distinction is meaningless, and that "fan fiction" is a pejorative term used by fundamentalists when it's applied to authorized and licensed adaptations. But yes, I would be happy to have any highly visible visual media version of The Wheel Of Time that engages new and existing fans with this very rich world of Robert Jordan's creation. Guilty! Of something important, I'm sure. Not being a devoted enough steward of the realm to receive virtual pats on the back from fellow keepers of the truth? I was going to delete my sarcastic comments at the end of the last paragraph, but I rethought that because it's really a fundamental difference in perspectives on any topic in any culture. My view is that stories/ideas/cultures are generally more healthy the more perspectives they engage. New versions and new methods lead to new creations, and one important way to measure how great a thing is is to trace all the creative branches that it generated. An opposing view that you seem to subscribe to would be more of a purist vision, that a creation stands alone and should be studied and analyzed to ascertain the depth of its meaning without diluting the existing work. Adaptation itself is suspect and judged by rigid standards which will result in disavowal if not met. So, to the extent my characterizations are accurate, we may indeed be talking past each other and using entirely different ideas of quality. RE: Min -- Min in the show is different in that respect from Min in the book. Her relationship to her viewings is just kind of a thing she does in the books, she doesn't say much more than that it brings her a lot of sadness when she sees terrible things in the future and knows nothing can stop them. Book Min doesn't appear to have an issue beyond that and she seems kind of proud of her ability, so she certainly wouldn't be receptive to anyone offering to take it away. Whereas in the show, her aunts tried to exploit this talent for money, which amounted to severe emotional abuse. It is a very different backstory, but it makes it absolutely believable that show Min would listen to someone who told her they could take it away, and then be strung along to a point where she realizes she's dealing with the literal devil and faces a huge challenge in trying to break away from that trap. Like I said before, you're right that it's different, but I don't see how it breaks her character's arc from the books. It certainly makes her rise to main character status more compelling for TV than the sexy psychic sidekick she is in the books.

It depends on specifics of what you mean. The Rand and Mat scenes in S1E3/4 never happened in the books, but they are a consolidation of many scenes in their TEOTW journey from Whitebridge to Caemlyn. I think those were great show scenes that effectively showed their character development and the overall worldbuilding in that section of the book.

Agreed, I said the same thing! I have no problem with people not enjoying the show, or any show! No one even needs to justify it, I don't like a lot of things myself. I've been posting in regards to the specific complaint made by WoT readers in this WoT forum that the show has deviated so much from the books that it "shouldn't even be called The Wheel Of Time." I do feel that is unwarranted and unjustified and in this very limited context in this very limited audience, I will continue to argue against it. My opinion is that this show is a strong adaptation of the story we all love, working within very challenging production constraints. Nobody else needs to agree that it's good, or that the different ways the characters, themes, events and world are presented in the show are interesting or the best that could be done in an adaptation. I think they are mostly interesting, but I doubt they're the best and I would love to read more discussion about different ways to accomplish the same specific storytelling goals. As this thread demonstrates though, "follow the books more closely" isn't a satisfying answer once you really grapple with the production constraints. Now that we've got two seasons of material to work with, I'm thinking about how they will get to so many of the things we know need to happen from The Shadow Rising, and I'm super excited to be surprised by all of it.

Like @Elder_Haman said, it depends on what actually changes. Given my judgement that the first two seasons are still clearly the story of WoT made by a production team that deeply understands the world and the story and the characters, there are many ways to get there. Asking for a list of must-include events seems like a "gotcha" kind of request, as if the show must progress through a checklist of scenes from the books to still be the same story. Instead, I am looking for the characters and the relationships between them to reflect their development as in the books, and that could be done in any number of ways. Of course, those characters need to inhabit the distinctive world of WoT, with the One Power, the Prophecies of the Dragon, the many different cultures and factions, the history from the Age Of Legends onward, the Forsaken and the Dark One, and of course the reincarnation of souls and weaving of the pattern through the Wheel Of Time itself. I love what the show has done in bringing forward the quasi-religious elements about the universally-shared faith in that metaphysical concept, from the Bel Tine lanterns to the Forsaken totems and shrines. We can see more clearly what it would feel like to live in that world, there's so much non-verbal worldbuilding that's essential to making the Wheel itself a presence the way it is in the books. So, is Rand a reluctant rural boy thrust unwillingly into his destiny as the Dragon Reborn? Yep. Are the EF5 exhibiting the same powers/abilities/motivations/flaws? Absolutely. Are other major characters playing similar roles? From Moiraine & Lan to Thom Merrilin and Min, they are showing up where they need to be, and even deepening their roles in some cases. Would I like to see a closer match to what they do in the books? Yes (more Thom!) and No (show Ishamael and Lanfear are amazing, and show Lan is seen as more fully human the way that Nynaeve and Moiraine see him - I wouldn't trade that for Rand and the boys' awe-filled perspective in the early books). I'm honestly impressed that the show writers have gotten as many characters into the story as they have, Jordan loved expanding his world by bringing in characters that we get to know well briefly and then they disappeared, forever or for several books.

Not really, in the sense that things don't have to happen the same way in this much shorter version of the story. I can see myself being extremely disappointed if next season doesn't have some version of the Rhuidean columns scenes, but I can also see myself being delighted and intrigued by some unimagined alternate way to convey the story of the Aiel in much the same way that S1 consolidated Rand and Mat's long journey from Whitebridge to Caemlyn.

Perhaps we are both making overly strong claims! I was responding to your question "how many of these little cuts can you make before it's just a different story?" which I took to be another version of the claim that the show shouldn't be called The Wheel Of Time. If I turned on some random fantasy show and watched any of the scenes you mentioned with different proper names, it might take me a few minutes to recognize WoT, but I would certainly get there quickly with all the visual symbolism that's packed into many scenes. So much of the production screams Wheel Of Time, beyond just the Dragon's Fang. All of the main characters in the show feel like real versions of the ones in the book, even if they emphasize different physical or emotional aspects. I'm not troubled one bit by Rand and Egwene having an age-appropriate sexual relationship, nor by Abel Cauthon showing up as pretty sleazy - horse-traders would be the equivalent of used-car salesmen in our world. We could go on through all of the examples you brought up, but ultimately you're exactly right that they are different from the books. I just don't find that to be disqualifying as WoT, Instead, I find it an interesting new perspective on the story.

^ If these people and places all had different names and the story was called Legends Of Zzynx, book readers would be in a rage about how WoT was being ripped off.

Perhaps we'll find out! But through season 2, it's clearly an adaptation of The Wheel Of Time. If every single proper noun was changed, most book readers who watched it would still recognize the story and world of WoT in nearly every scene in every episode. For one show I do watch, I think Avatar The Last Airbender is an apt comparison. The original animated series is something like 60 episodes, the new live-action version is going to be 24 (each a bit longer than the animated ones). In just the first season, they've cut what seemed to be key scenes, and added others that weren't in the original, put characters in different places, and made some events happen out of order. But it's clearly the same story, and I don't understand what someone would hope to accomplish by saying "it shouldn't even be called Avatar The Last Airbender!"

I see that... I just mean that, like Harry Potter, like LOTR, like the four Gospels, there are multiple official ("canon") versions of the same story, which adds to the richness of the dialogue around all of them. I'm grateful for the depth and alternate perspectives on the same story. The bolded is a nice theme, I really loved how it plays out in Roald Dahl's Charlie & The Chocolate Factory too. The point I made about misunderstanding and confusion is exactly the same point that Jordan makes in the "memories...legend...myth" sequence you quote, and it's a premise of the world he created - how it functions - rather than a theme such as the conflict between good and evil. The key points I'm making about about the importance of misunderstanding the world, including false conceptions of the past and prophecy, are hammered home over and over again. The columns of Rhuidean is a vivid illustration of that point, where many potential Aiel leaders are so invested in their self-conception as a proud warrior culture that they literally claw their eyes out when faced with a version of the truth that undermines the story they've been telling themselves. I see book purists who fall back to claiming that "the Prime adaptation shouldn't even be called The Wheel Of Time" in much the same way.

I barely watch TV and I don't really care about ranking any kind of media, nor do I concern myself with the machinations of the entertainment industry, at all. I really like The Wheel Of Time specifically and am excited to see an adaptation of it, one which brings the characters and concepts to life in ways that are sometimes spot-on illustrations of the ones in the books and other times present contrasting interpretations that enhance the richness of the world - we're not just theorizing on fan forums, there's now actually an official alternate canon that can be engaged with on its own and in relation to the original! I love seeing off-page scenes presented, like Logain's initial rise to power. I love the alternate realities, like Selene's completely different approach to attempting Rand's seduction. Jordan, much more than most other authors, wrote a world where these differences should be expected, welcomed and engaged with creatively. We can absolutely argue about whether aspects of the Prime version are more worthy of a court bard performing High Chant or a simple country gleeman in the common tongue, but let's not stoop to saying it's not the same story.

Audiobooks are for the weak and the blind 😉 (Tongue firmly in cheek, I just hate listening to people talk and avoid audiobooks and podcasts and talk radio/news as a general rule.)