Rafe and many of his team have a documented and obvious deep love of the series, and I'm so irritated with this slander. They read the same books as you and many of the "contradictions" are things long-time readers have also understood in the text of the books. There are choices they made that other teams wouldn't have - which is a simple fact of any adaptation - but they made them based on telling Robert Jordan's story as they sincerely understood it.

blood and bloody ashes

I think Judkins has been pretty upfront and realistic about his expectations of negative reactions from some portion of the readership. I think a lot of it is unavoidable when making an adaptation of such a dense and beloved work as this, I remember being pretty upset about several aspects of the LOTR movies when they came out. (The one I still stand by is that scene in Moria where Aragorn tells Frodo to "lean forward", it's too campy!) Well, and then there's the options related to If They ARE There, and whether or not that is satisfactory. Show Mat is full of problems compared to Book Mat, most due to all the rewrites when the first Mat actor left the show in the middle of filming. I think they've recovered and put him in just about the right space as a character by the end of S3, but the damage to his show arc this far is real. I didn't like the pairing with Min in S2, but I struggle to think of other ways to get him to Falme from his disappearance in S1, none that I can think of really seem any more satisfying. I think the S1 Dragon mystery was a bad choice that led them to give early Egwene and Nynaeve more power moments in addition to character moments. And we got almost no power moments from Rand, though I really liked a lot of the character ones we did get: angry at Moiraine after the first Ba'alzamon dream, the banter with Mat on the road, the pushing his friends away argument in Fal Dara. I would have liked to see more character development than the TV show had the time to devote with all of them, but I think as a book reader it's easy to feel like the balance shifted away from Rand because in fact - as a matter of word count - it did, and it had to. We got way more of him in the early books, and so the absence is palpable because we know him in that part of the story. Especially for those of us who've re-read those early books so many times, it just doesn't feel right.

Totally agreed, I think that's what they're planning and I think they could pay it off really well.

People can be and are angry about many things, and honestly it doesn't seem to make any difference to many of them whether other people think it's rational or not. If something makes me angry, I tend to not engage with it, because life is too short already. The extreme example here is totally absurd of course, and being implausible is hard to take seriously. But I do understand the point that producing a TV adaptation of The Wheel Of Time (or any book series) generates an expectation among readers that certain characters, events and themes will be shown. If instead we got a deep dive into Saldaean ice pepper production with the only references to the EF5 and Aes Sedai being a little gossip between farmers and merchants, then yeah, those expectations would clearly not be met. It would also be colossally bad business. My counter to your example: let's imagine the Amazon series showed iconic scenes from the books, like Winternight, Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin, Nynaeve's Accepted test, Egwene captured as a damane, the battle at Falme, the columns at Rhuidean, the battle of the Two Rivers, the Aelfinn, many more. Would you be pleased with the show, despite differences in the details between what you see and what you read? Comparison is the thief of joy. As I'll continue to say, I think your expectations are getting in the way of appreciating what the show is doing. In the books, it's all from Rand's and occasionally Perrin's perspective, at first, so we naturally feel that they are the most important characters and we sympathize with what Jordan tells us they think and feel. The show is starting out showing all the main characters as equally important, and this is a huge change in the feel of the story. It throws book readers for a loop, because we know Rand is the hero just from the structure of the early books, we're inside his head. But the show gives all the other characters big moments very early on, not just in service of the questionable Who's The Dragon? mystery, but also in the name of establishing each of these people in stories that a TV audience can care about spending time with. Because it's a complicated story and a lot of it happens away from Rand. For what it's worth, I think season 3 proved they're ready to take Rand, Perrin and Mat to the next level. Perrin basically goes silent in the books at this point, so his rearranged arc will be really interesting. Likewise with Mat, they ended with his biggest character turning point. Rand was really the star in S3, and he's set to become even more dominant from here on out.

I don't know what you're on about with this nonsense about heroes can do everything by themselves, you seem very single-minded. They all need each other to succeed, yet they all need to be individually strong in their different ways, this is a theme in the books. Sometimes characters do incredible things on their own, and sometimes they do incredible things together. To ultimately succeed in their biggest battles, they need to work together. It's implied that Aiel first-sisters can and do have sexual relationships in the books. Sister-wives with each other as well. If you want to contest that opinion, show me a definitive book or Jordan quote that says it's flat-out not possible.

No, you're not reacting to what I wrote at all. The scene simply demonstrates the power and importance of intention and mental self-discipline related to use of the OP. Whether it elevates Egwene v Rand is a case of expectations not being met and not paying attention to the story actually being told as it unfolds. Dismissing different readings as "headcanons" is a choice you can make. You say there is no Eros between them in the books, yet I and other readers see it when we read the books. Rafe and his team see it and put it onscreen. Another team could totally choose not to. I am actively interested in both readings.

It's a totally natural response when watching an adaptation of a story you know, so sit with that and have that reaction. Then watch the show again so you can pay closer attention to what's actually there. When your focus is on deviations from what you expect to be there, then you miss the story they are actually telling, which is unavoidably different from the books. Yet I find it so obviously to be the same story. People have used the analogy of a gleeman in common tongue versus a court bard in High Chant, and that's perfectly fine. Every telling is different, as the first chapter of every book in the series reminds us.

re: the a'dam -- It's broadly consistent with the books in that intention, need, and belief are crucial to the effects of OP and ter'angreal use. Egwene learned how to hold the belief that putting the collar on Renna did not harm her, long enough to do it. This was clearly set up with the water pitcher, and I can't think of a point in the books where this approach is ever tested or directly contradicted. re: Aviendha and Elayne -- Lots of long-time readers read that relationship in the books as romantic. Many others do not. Like I said in my comment above, it's a valid choice to make that a romantic relationship, and it would be equally valid to portray them as strictly platonic.

After three seasons of this argument, I still don't think people who say this understand how drastic the rewrite has to be to fit the story into 8 seasons. Based on page count alone, 8 seasons of 8 60-minute episode scripts is equal to about 25% of the page count of the books. A full 75% of the story has to be cut, and as much as we all joke about the slog and this or that tedious descriptive obsession of Robert Jordan, that's absolutely massive and lots of favorite characters and scenes are going to be cut. And you can't just cut, you have to create new material to bridge the subplots that had to be cut, as well as to make the themes coherent. There's no way to do this without serious re-interpretation, which invariably leads to the argument over what makes an adaptation vs a fanfic vs a new story with existing names, etc. I'm not interested in that debate, as to me the show clearly displays a deep understanding of and love for the story in the books, despite all the changes they have to and choose to make. In a different thread (many different threads) people have made the point that they feel the show is elevating certain themes and characters instead of others, and that is of course true. A different showrunner could have made a TV show that was more of a gritty apocalyptic battle story. Another team could have given a very conservative reading emphasizing that the traditional values most people read into the early Emond's Field chapters are in fact the key to overcoming corruption and discord. Those would be valid and different choices, and I feel like those are the two that most of the complaints about Judkin's more cosmopolitan interpretation are coming from. There are many other options, The Wheel Of Time is an extremely rich work of fantasy created by an author who had a true gift for writing in vastly different philosophical perspectives without mocking any of them.

WOT can't be done on a season-by-season extension basis. Simply based on the plot, it's a crazy complex story and they need to write it from the ending based on how much time they have to work with. Rafe and team have noted they went in with an 8 season plan and a 6 season plan, and I believe there's also a 5 season plan that's been discussed. It's very likely that the current renewal discussion is mostly centered around confirming which of those plans they'll proceed with. That and keeping iWot satiated. Aside from plot, there's no way you're gonna retain all of these actors for minimum 15 years. At best, we're getting the core EF5+ for that length of time, and a lot of the next-tier characters - like Suian and Loial - are going to get some of their key moments and then get killed. Jordan could keep book characters alive to Tarmon Gai'don, but no TV show is going to be able to pull that off with real human actors who have other commitments and ambitions, who may well have life issues that prevent them from continuing to the end - we already had that happen with Mat in S1!

I'm a few years younger than you and Guire, but for the record I'm a 48yo white cishet guy who's been reading WOT since I was a super-conservative teenager whose parents held me out of class to take high school sex ed as a correspondence course in the '90s. I'm married with three teenage kids. Demographics aren't the reason y'all are having a problem with this, it's a cultural thing - which is real and valid and I'm not trying to dismiss it. Just don't say you don't get it because you're a middle-aged straight guy. Cipher, I'm curious what vulgar words have been spoken in the show to make you uncomfortable. I can only think of a couple explicitly sexual lines of dialogue, and they don't feel more explicit than what's in the books. Seeing some of the Alanna/Ihvon/Maksim scenes visually might trigger a more visceral disgust than reading about the Greens and their warders in the books, but the show has really cut out the women breasting about boobily that Jordan threw in every other time there was a female character involved in the narrative. Bottom line, I think the show is a pretty accurate visual representation of Jordan's text depictions of sexuality in this world. If anything, it's tamer, which is Guire's original point in this thread.

Man, finally watched Winter Dragon yesterday. What a piece of crap. I look forward to reading up on how Red Eagle scammed Jordan into buying the rights to WOT so I can better focus my anger.

No duds at all, but E5 was a "back to normal" episode after E4 adapted my favorite chapters in all of fantasy. I mean, reading those chapters and then going back to Perrin arriving in the Two Rivers via the Ways was a bit of a comedown too. I'm a huge fan of the show and have never really experienced any whole episodes as unworthy. Some scenes for sure felt rushed or poorly written/executed (Nynaeve's burnout for example), but each episode in all three seasons has been so full of things that just make my love for this world bloom all over again.

I wonder if this is another mistake due to the SAG-AFTRA strike, like Sarah Nakamura described with Moghedien using the term Forsaken instead of Chosen when she kills Ispan. Basically the correction was noted but with the long pause for the strike the writers didn't make the change before filming had to start.

It's there when he exits the doorway, have a look at what he's hanging from.

This is a fair point, and it does highlight one of the big splits in the fandom. Honestly more of a shattering than a split. There are so many themes and threads to be followed in the books and everyone loves some particular points more than others. Reading the books as primarily a wartime apocalypse story is absolutely valid, it's clearly the main plot. But what makes the books really click with people are often other aspects of the story: the historical lore and magic system, any of the various character arcs, the detailed cultural worldbuilding, the politics and infighting and relationship drama. The Prime show is leaning into the characters and their relationships pretty heavily, and definitely not focusing on the gritty war story the way another team could have chosen to do. Neither approach is wrong, but I get being disappointed by the choice. I also wanna add that the S2 scene where Egwene asks Alanna for help channeling but Alanna thinks she's talking about threesomes is hilarious and priceless for Egwene's increasingly uncomfortable reaction. Great character moment that fits exactly with Egwene's all-business ambition in the books, and also using her as a stand-in for all the Two Rivers characters' prudery.

That's true, and he wants to do that because that's what Robert Jordan did in the books. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/wheel-of-time-queer-universe-season-3-rafe-judkins-interview-1236173757/ "We made a conscious decision in the first season writers room to make sure homophobia didn’t exist in The Wheel of Time. I think a lot of our audience won’t notice it, but some of the audience does notice and feel it — that it is fantasy,” says Judkins. “We go to worlds different from our own, and people think about the world and the people in it differently than our own. We don’t need homophobia to exist. It doesn’t really in the books. Very rarely does anyone ever make any negative commentary about any queer relationship in the books.” I linked that same interview in another thread, and I added the additional point that presenting this sex-positive inclusive world in this way really highlights how different it is from the expectations we as viewers bring to the show ourselves, from our sex-negative homophobic world. So, you're not wrong to notice the difference at all. Part of the general queer/feminist sex-positive perspective is that sex can be whatever the people involved want it to be, as long as there is consent from all parties. A big part of traditional patriarchal "sexiness" is the lurking threat of non-consensual sexual violence, playing with fire and getting burned and all that, whether it be a jealous rage from a rival lover or a sex-hating god sending you to hell for the sin of lust. Lanfear is definitely playing the jealous lover trope and it's no coincidence that she's the most obviously sexual character. But nobody in the books outside of the Two Rivers seems to have any original sin type guilt over sex... and of course you know I have doubts about those Taren Ferry folk.

This is absolutely not true. It's driven home over and over again that the oaths have to do with what the Aes Sedai believes to be true, not what is actually true.

Didn't Jordan do this too? The non-Andoran characters are pretty sexual and look at our heroes as prudes, and sex seems pretty matter-of-fact throughout the series except for the explicit deviants like Graendal. The Cairhienin and other nobles use sex as a scheming device, but nothing about the way they have sex is really hinted to be particularly noteworthy. I guess the Tylin scenes are pretty kinky. For all the hot and sweaty flirting in the common rooms of inns and taverns, I'm not remembering anything more than the occasional implication of this or that woman's very vague talents. Imagination is a powerful tool though! Anyway, I think they'll stay pretty fade-to-black with sex scenes and the sexiest implications will be made through costuming like Lanfear's.

For preventing pregnancy, Randland has the widely-available prophylactic heartleaf tea to head off this risk. And as far as venereal disease, I can't think of a time Jordan even hinted at them existing. Despite the conceit of this being our world in the distant future, he wrote a fantasy world where STDs are not a meaningful issue.

For a book series that obviously foregrounded literal plot armor (ta'veren, the Wheel itself), it's very frustrating to see book readers complain about these same devices in the TV adaptation. I guess it was ok as long as there was Loial or Verin to murmur something about ta'veren on the page, but if we don't have a character spoonfeeding us the reminder that "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" then it's some kind of massive writing failure? Nynaeve was only alive to break her block in the books because...Moghedien was startled by a random flock of pigeons! The books are full of stupid unbelievable contrivances like that, and I think most of us love them anyway. Did we ever need a debate over whether a Forsaken would give a damn about pigeons, or whether the nuances of her mental distress in that moment justify this slip? No, we never have. I get that arguing on the internet is fun for a lot of people, theorizing and counter-theorizing and nitpicking and all of it. But in the context of an adaptation of The Wheel Of Deus Ex Machina, I have zero problem letting the Cauthon girls be improbably skilled healers so the story moves forward.

Another one, can't wait for Thursday! https://www.tvinsider.com/1186398/the-wheel-of-time-season-3-finale-liandrin-cuff-sneak-peek/

Praise for this episode and especially for the whole show in this review: https://www.polygon.com/impressions/557477/wheel-time-episode-7-battle-episode-fantasy

They're definitely pulling forward the whitecloak trial and pushing back the Slayer/wolf dream arcs for Perrin. Would like to have seen some more explicit foreshadowing for those and I do consider it a miss at this point, but I'll be fully on board if they are able to make those sing in future seasons.