Is it bad for WOT if LOTR is a huge success?

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

23 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Yeah, I agree with @CaddySedai. I haven’t read the books, but I love the LOTR trilogy (hobbit is bleh), and I get similar vibes to that, so I’ll probably keep watching. I’d recommend at least checking out the first couple episodes. 

Thanks! I did the first one yesterday, I had a somewhat similar opinion to yours after one episode. Boring but great cinematography. 

[DojoToad]

54 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

Actually back before it became uber rare they sold some to other races to be worked. The Noldor used mithril to create the alloy ithildin and decorated using that. 

 

the ring of power Nenya was also forged of mithril by the elves. 

 

But this is getting off topic. Ultimately I think if ROP does well it might have a stack on effect for WOT. People looking for more fantasy. 

 

Shows how much I know of middle earth lore. 😂 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 9/2/2022 at 8:16 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Having it take place in that gray area, you can pretty much write any story you want, and as long as you don't break continuity, book fans can't gripe too much about it.

The main gripe I have seen is that the scene which apparently shows the death of Finrod and Galadriel's talk about taking up her brothers oath (which she appears to mean an oath to pursue Sauron) does not agree with what is written in the Silmarillion.  

[Blackbyrd]

15 hours ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Thanks! I did the first one yesterday, I had a somewhat similar opinion to yours after one episode. Boring but great cinematography. 

 

I think it can't be overstated how great this looks. I agree with most of the people saying that there's a whole lot of meh but there's also nothing horrible- plenty of time to get better. Will be worth watching if just for the groundbreaking cinematic quality for a streaming series. 

 

I'm not one of those people who thinks if a show fails it's good because then a reboot might happen later in a better way. No, the more there is the more there will be- let the cup runneth over

Edited September 6, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[DojoToad]

I wasn't bored at all.  There were a few choices I thought were silly as far as writing.  But overall didn't hate it.

 

I'm coming from a place where I don't know any of the source material.  I know LoTR and Hobbit (books once or twice and the movies repeatedly) - but don't know if that counts as this is a prequel.  I'm not even sure if there is source material from what I've been reading.  Was this all made up to fit into Tolkien's world?

 

A few nits to pick, but so far a 3 out of 5 stars for the first two episodes.  I'll watch another and see how it goes.

 

As it relates to WoT - I can see how not knowing source material could have made it easier to accept changes/made up material.  And as WoT was made for a larger (non-book reading audience), I can see how Rafe and team felt safe to take liberties from the source material.  I still struggle with it but they have to play the numbers.

 

Not determined yet, but I'm still not sure if a successful RoP hurts/helps WoT.  Maybe they stay independent...

[DaddyFinn]

Lot of new people in twitter finding WoT after watching RoP. WoT is also rising in some charts

[Chivalry]

I think the LOTR series will be a huge success (in terms of viewership), and I think this will help WOT. How many high budget fantasy shows can the whole family sit down to watch together (if anyone still does that)? I watched GOT, but in general, that type of show is not my cup of tea. I'm steering clear of the Dragon Riders of Porn.

[VooDooNut]

House of the*

19 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

Dragon Riders of Porn.

[notpropaganda73]

I watched episode 1 last night. It feels as if there's no real thrust to the story and it's very scattered... I am assuming things will come together in the hunt for Sauron but there were some ridiculous moments to me that even allowing for fantasy I just thought were nonsensical. Is Galadriel going to just swim the open Sundering Seas all the way back to Middle-Earth? This is as stupid as Legolas killing that elephant on his own in Return of the King. (I realise I may be getting het up by something that will be answered in episode two, or at least I hope so). 

 

The show looks sensational, yes, although it's very jarring then when it doesn't, if that makes sense. 95% of it is flawless but the other 5% is noticeably bad. For example I thought when Galadriel killed the snow troll (with absolutely zero effort), it looked bad. But earlier in that scene and the sets all look great. 

 

I am only really interested in Arondir as a character so far. I like the idea of that tension between the Elves and Men in the tavern. The forbidden romance, not so much, but it's another way of exploring that tension. 

 

Galadriel bores me. I understand the character motivation but I don't connect with it. Something is off because I found myself just scrolling on my phone for large periods of the episode, but especially when it was focussed on Galadriel.

 

The Harfoots... if I could get past their accents maybe I'd be interested in what is happening there, but mostly I'm listening confused - they are some weird mesh of west-country England and an Irish accent, but not a real Irish accent, more what someone thinks an Irish accent sounds like. Considering Tolkien's whole idea of the Shire and Hobbits was idyllic, rural England, the insertion of an Irish twang is odd and the sort of detail that drags me out of the immersion of the show. 

 

Overall it doesn't feel like Middle-Earth to me at the moment but as a general fantasy show I will continue watching, more out of the expectation that things will start to happen rather than hoping it will turn into a great show. I'd probably say 1.5/2 out of 5 at the moment but obviously it's very early days. 

 

---

 

In terms of the thread, the more I've thought about it the more I think it's inevitable that WoT will get some spike in popularity or more interest as a result of this show, regardless of its quality. Long-term we will see, but in terms of the short-term anyway, Amazon have a great window of opportunity off the back of the viewership of RoP. 

[JyP]

Having seen Rings of Power first episode, I guess Rafe may have played his cards right last year with his changes to WoT. - we will see in the long run.

 

Weak point of this first episode would be a very classic exposition : there's a Big Bad Boss Which Is Known To The Audience From The Start, and a Young Adult Protagonist Which Is Right Against Her Elders, in a Generic Western Fantasy World (and woe to me if Elves Are Righteous Badass and not murderers of their own kin to pursue Morgoth with ships taken by force).

 

By contrast, as a male viewer, WoT world feels more Exotic Fantasy World - and with a focus on female protagonists and female exploits (and male protagonists much less stellars) which is an intriguing move, which may differentiate it from Generic Fantasy World RoP. To check at the end of the first season of RoP then.

Edited September 7, 2022 by JyP

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, JyP said:

and a Young Adult Protagonist Which Is Right Against Her

 

Haven't watched the show, but that seems rather silly considering Galadriel is, I believe, older (possibly considerably so) than Gil Galad. Depending on the version of him she's his aunt, his father's cousin, or most likely his great aunt. She's like 2000-5000 years old in the second age if I'm not mistaken, hardly a youth even for an elf.

 

I tend to agree that if RoP does well, than thats better for WoT. Of course WoT is gonna have to stand on it's own legs regardless.

Edited September 7, 2022 by MasterAblar

[SinisterDeath]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:28 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The main gripe I have seen is that the scene which apparently shows the death of Finrod and Galadriel's talk about taking up her brothers oath (which she appears to mean an oath to pursue Sauron) does not agree with what is written in the Silmarillion.  

Legally, they can't use what's in the Silmarillion.

 

  

54 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Haven't watched the show, but that seems rather silly considering Galadriel is, I believe, older (possibly considerably so) than Gil Galad. Depending on the version of him she's his aunt, his father's cousin, or most likely his great aunt. She's like 2000-5000 years old in the second age if I'm not mistaken, hardly a youth even for an elf.

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Galadriel?so=search
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Gil-galad?so=search

From the above, it looks like she's only a a hundred and nineteen years older than Gil-Galad.
Show wise, we know she's from the 1st age. Very hard to tell how old elves are in relation to each other.

If anything, the show is highlighting the class division within elves. There's a particular scene where Elrond is informed he can't go to a meeting because it's only for "Elf Lords"... And even though Elrond is significantly younger than Galadriel, he's basically ordering he around. My only assumption is that lineage, nobility, and age come second to who's the current "lord" and in "power".

 

[MasterAblar]

32 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Legally, they can't use what's in the Silmarillion.

 

  

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Galadriel?so=search
https://lotr.fandom.com/I wiki/Gil-galad?so=search

From the above, it looks like she's only a a hundred and nineteen years older than Gil-Galad.
Show wise, we know she's from the 1st age. Very hard to tell how old elves are in relation to each other.

If anything, the show is highlighting the class division within elves. There's a particular scene where Elrond is informed he can't go to a meeting because it's only for "Elf Lords"... And even though Elrond is significantly younger than Galadriel, he's basically ordering he around. My only assumption is that lineage, nobility, and age come second to who's the current "lord" and in "power".

 

Yeah I mean Gil-Galad is notoriously hard to pin down in terms of lineage and age. He could be very close to her, or he could be a fair bit younger. All depends on what version is relied on.

 

I find it kinda funny that Elrond or Galadriel would not be considered highest class. She’s the daughter of the high king of all Noldors in Valinor, and married to Celebrimbor who was a Lord amongst the Sindar, fairly closely related to Thingol I believe.

And no one has a lineage of the pedigree of Elrond. Dude is descended from Fingolfin, Thingol, all three great houses of the Edain, he even has angelic lineage from Melian. I mean he’s the son of freaking Earendil. Only ones who one up him are his own children. Of course depending on when in the second age the story is taking plane (and whether it’s overall chronology still holds in the first place), Elrond is anywhere from very young to going on 3000 years. Impossible to know with how they’re dealing with time in the show, but I guess he’s being portrayed as young here.

Edited September 7, 2022 by MasterAblar

[JyP]

Well, from RoP first episode we know that : 

 

- First Age is long gone, there's peace everywhere

- Gil Galad is Da King

- Galadriel is this blood thirsty misfit where all other elves are now pacifists. Even other warriors won't follow her obsession to find Sauron, 'cause she got a feeling.
- Elrond is this guy who can't attend royal council because he is not an elf lord. But he wrote the king's discourse anyway.

- at the end : Sauron (or not ?) Is Back as a Shooting Star

 

So lineage and pedigrees are not discussed, no Celebrimbor and certainly no daughter, and the actress seems way younger than Gil Galad.

Edited September 14, 2022 by JyP

[SinisterDeath]

21 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

And no one has a lineage of the pedigree of Elrond. Dude is descended from Fingolfin, Thingol, all three great houses of the Edain, he even has angelic lineage from Melian. I mean he’s the son of freaking Earendil.

I've never delved that deep into Lotr lore. Don't really care that much lol.
From the show, if we assume everything else about linages from the book are true (Until otherwise stated) then my guess is that they don't care about linage, but about who's currently the leader.

Does the combined works of Tolkien go into how elvish leadership works? Is it the same way human kingdoms work?

[MasterAblar]

18 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I've never delved that deep into Lotr lore. Don't really care that much lol.
From the show, if we assume everything else about linages from the book are true (Until otherwise stated) then my guess is that they don't care about linage, but about who's currently the leader.

Does the combined works of Tolkien go into how elvish leadership works? Is it the same way human kingdoms work?

Oh for sure, with how limited the show is on what they can pull from the books since they have the rights to very little, basically can’t assume anything is the same.

 

I imagine they’re portraying Elrond and Galadriel as younger and less mature then they probably would be in the books (particularly Galadriel), maybe to show how they get to being where they are in the LotR.

 

As for how Elvish leadership work, I don’t recall it being any different then human leadership but I’m no expert. The title of high king of the Noldor for instance went from father to eldest son (Finwe, Feanor, Maehdros who surrendered it to Fingolfin, then Fingon, Turgon, and lastly Gil-Galad). Elrond himself is the great grandson of Turgon through his daughter if I remember correctly.

[Skipp]

I wasn't very excited for RoP to come out, had zero hype between my partner and I.  We watched the first 2 episodes and found them to be an enjoyable watch.  While I am a fan of the books and Jackson films it has been years since I watched/read them and while I know some of the deeper lore I have never read The Silmarillion.

 

I found the show to be very pretty to look at, most of the CGI is solid, the landscapes(matte paintings?) are gorgeous.  The acting is mostly solid, Galadrial is a little 2 dimensional atm but I think her arc will progress that.  I am really enjoying the dynamics between the Elves and Men as well as Elrond and Durin.

 

What I am really happy about is seeing WoT sneak back into the top 10 shows on Amazon in several countries.  I have been seeing new people reacting to the show on twitter and it is amazing.

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

As for how Elvish leadership work, I don’t recall it being any different then human leadership but I’m no expert. The title of high king of the Noldor for instance went from father to eldest son (Finwe, Feanor, Maehdros who surrendered it to Fingolfin, then Fingon, Turgon, and lastly Gil-Galad). Elrond himself is the great grandson of Turgon through his daughter if I remember correctly.

That then leads to what happens when the land they were king of, is no more? 
Do they ignore their bloodlines until they create their own kingdom, and prior to that have to defer to the king of the land they currently reside?

I'm pretty sure immortality throws a big monkey wrench into succession..

[CaddySedai]

Also, while I can clearly see the difference between our series and ROP...

 

It really feels like they did not get much extra value for the 58.1 million per episode. There's still some jank. lol.

[Agitel]

Casting for elves is difficult because while they seem to grow in some type of aura and maturity they are immortal and should have no signs of age (physical deterioration) in the way humans do. But you can't just cast 20 to 35 year olds.

[CaddySedai]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Casting for elves is difficult because while they seem to grow in some type of aura and maturity they are immortal and should have no signs of age (physical deterioration) in the way humans do. But you can't just cast 20 to 35 year olds.

 

Tiz why you should cast older - and de-age them digitally.

 

The process already has a bit of uncanny valley look to them... like something isn't QUITE right. Which is how I feel "ageless" would seem to people who do age. lol

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

That then leads to what happens when the land they were king of, is no more? 
Do they ignore their bloodlines until they create their own kingdom, and prior to that have to defer to the king of the land they currently reside?

I'm pretty sure immortality throws a big monkey wrench into succession..

 

I don't believe any of the noldorin kings ever survived the fall of their kingdom, and some, like Fingolfin, died before it fell. So that was never an issue.

 

As for immortality and succesion, Ingwe, high king of all the elves, is sitting pretty in Valinor at over 10000 years of age by the end of the third age, so his children might be getting a tad impatient.

Edited September 7, 2022 by MasterAblar

[Kalessin]

22 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Haven't watched the show, but that seems rather silly considering Galadriel is, I believe, older (possibly considerably so) than Gil Galad. Depending on the version of him she's his aunt, his father's cousin, or most likely his great aunt. She's like 2000-5000 years old in the second age if I'm not mistaken, hardly a youth even for an elf.

 

I tend to agree that if RoP does well, than thats better for WoT. Of course WoT is gonna have to stand on it's own legs regardless.

Let's see, Galadriel is the daughter of Finarfin the youngest son of Finwe, the King of the Noldorin, and Earwen the daughter of Olwe, the King of the Teleri, who is the brother of Elu Thingol, King of the Sindarin (Teleri who remained in Middle Earth in the First Age). Gil-Galad is the son of Fingon, the son of Fingolfin, the second-oldest son of Finwe.

 

Galadriel is thus Fingon's first cousin, since their fathers are brothers. She's Gil-Galad's first cousin once removed. (Source: The Silmarillion)

[MasterAblar]

35 minutes ago, Kalessin said:

Let's see, Galadriel is the daughter of Finarfin the youngest son of Finwe, the King of the Noldorin, and Earwen the daughter of Olwe, the King of the Teleri, who is the brother of Elu Thingol, King of the Sindarin (Teleri who remained in Middle Earth in the First Age). Gil-Galad is the son of Fingon, the son of Fingolfin, the second-oldest son of Finwe.

 

Galadriel is thus Fingon's first cousin, since their fathers are brothers. She's Gil-Galad's first cousin once removed. (Source: The Silmarillion)

Yeah that’s with Fingon. I just don’t know what considered the most likely nowadays. Issue with him being Fingon’s son is it begs the question of why Turgon became king instead of him when Fingon died.

[Kalessin]

23 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Yeah that’s with Fingon. I just don’t know what considered the most likely nowadays. Issue with him being Fingon’s son is it begs the question of why Turgon became king instead of him when Fingon died.

I suppose Gil-Galad's (relative) age. He was shipped off to the coast and (relative) safety while Turgon remained alive and free, and capable to doing great damage to Morgoth's rule. Or perhaps Turgon could be considered a Regent ...