Is it bad for WOT if LOTR is a huge success?

[nsmallw]

13 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Only the grey elves (Sindar) were depicted as uniformly blonde.  The Noldor were depicted as largely dark haired expect certain specific individuals (which is in line with the books) and the wood elves (Avar) are also depicted as dark / reddish haired.

That makes me an Avar Elf 😄

[DojoToad]

I don't know how RoP is trending, but I'm still enjoying it as of last night.

[MasterAblar]

Yeah strictly speaking only elves with Vanyar descent should, or could rather, have blonde hair, I believe. Which means almost nobody in Middle Earth.

Edited October 1, 2022 by MasterAblar

[Sabio]

I wouldn't say it's the best show ever but I'm enjoying most of it.  Sadly it does show where WOT is lacking,

[Chivalry]

14 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I don't know how RoP is trending, but I'm still enjoying it as of last night.

It's a fun show. 

[DaddyFinn]

RoP still doesn't hit the right spots for me. Lazy writing(too many close calls and last minute rescues, the usual cliches), boring action with some highlights(Arondir vs. miniboss orc), characters I still don't care about(pretty much all of them).. The ending was ridiculous. Something has to happen in the last two episodes to hype up season 2. I don't have high hopes.

 

WoT had barely any of these issues for me. Might be biased but they are nowhere in the same level. The money isn't showing with other than the visuals.

 

Sadly this season has been pretty much as I expected: not interesting.

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

RoP still doesn't hit the right spots for me. Lazy writing(too many close calls and last minute rescues, the usual cliches), boring action with some highlights(Arondir vs. miniboss orc), characters I still don't care about(pretty much all of them).. The ending was ridiculous. Something has to happen in the last two episodes to hype up season 2. I don't have high hopes.

 

WoT had barely any of these issues for me. Might be biased but they are nowhere in the same level. The money isn't showing with other than the visuals.

 

Sadly this season has been pretty much as I expected: not interesting.

• Assassin Nynaeve taking out trolloc on her own
• Untrained Nynaeve healing blast after trained Aes Sedai failed to contain Logain
• Mat and Rand saved from terminator darkfriend at last minute by Thom
• Untrained channelers miraculously save the day at the last minute after trollocs overwhelm defenders at Tarwin's Gap
• Untrained Egwene heals near-dead Nynaeve
• Cliff hanger with Loial getting cut by evil dagger - usual cliches

I don't have high hopes...

[DaddyFinn]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

• Assassin Nynaeve taking out trolloc on her own
• Untrained Nynaeve healing blast after trained Aes Sedai failed to contain Logain
• Mat and Rand saved from terminator darkfriend at last minute by Thom
• Untrained channelers miraculously save the day at the last minute after trollocs overwhelm defenders at Tarwin's Gap

These have pretty easy and logical reasons that have been said over and over again. Wouldn't put them on the "lazy writing" list.

 

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Untrained Egwene heals near-dead Nynaeve

This was the worst scene in the season.

 

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Cliff hanger with Loial getting cut by evil dagger - usual cliches

Season has to end with cliffhangers, right? We'll see how the dagger's powers have been changed from book lore.

[Blackbyrd]

On 10/1/2022 at 8:33 PM, DaddyFinn said:

RoP still doesn't hit the right spots for me. Lazy writing(too many close calls and last minute rescues, the usual cliches), boring action with some highlights(Arondir vs. miniboss orc), characters I still don't care about(pretty much all of them).. The ending was ridiculous. Something has to happen in the last two episodes to hype up season 2. I don't have high hopes.

 

WoT had barely any of these issues for me. Might be biased but they are nowhere in the same level. The money isn't showing with other than the visuals.

 

Sadly this season has been pretty much as I expected: not interesting.

 

I do think WoT was stronger in many aspects and it almost certainly has to do with drawing from more potent source material. So far Rings has been chalk full of wonky fantasy trope, too much over the top action moments, and the story too laden with mystery/intrigue. It's very ABC in terms of 'fantasy' Having said that- it is the 1st season and I see definite signs of life in the acting, and some of the characters, and though there have been some not great visual moments, it has had many visuals that were a true joy to behold

 

19 hours ago, DojoToad said:

• Assassin Nynaeve taking out trolloc on her own
• Untrained Nynaeve healing blast after trained Aes Sedai failed to contain Logain
• Mat and Rand saved from terminator darkfriend at last minute by Thom
• Untrained channelers miraculously save the day at the last minute after trollocs overwhelm defenders at Tarwin's Gap
• Untrained Egwene heals near-dead Nynaeve
• Cliff hanger with Loial getting cut by evil dagger - usual cliches

I don't have high hopes...

 

Eh- this was such a passing thing. Taim not swordmastering was the far larger trespass

In a 64 episode series this is probably warranted for what will come

Again eh- bigger issue was the lack of accounting of time with Mat/Rand/Thom- the mentoring and closeness of that initial relationship was lost. This also goes for Lan

Well- there was a lot of messed up stuff in the last 2 episodes. The cavalry charge should always be a hilarious meme

I accept that TV shows will hang on cliffs- it's part of the deal

 

Both have suffered from Tvish treatment but I think Rings feels it more, which seems right as they are starting from scratch with a story that's mostly on them. I hope they can start to bring things together and tighten things up to make it a unique thing rather than hitting all the 'high fantasy' notes. While WoT likely faces the near opposite problem- squeezing in enough lore while also balancing the ability to tell a story through a visual medium at a pace that's almost antithetical to the style RJ

Edited October 3, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[Dagon Thyne]

last I checked, RoP only had a budget of 94 million for season one.  Not $250 million.  Not sure where the OP for his numbers.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

last I checked, RoP only had a budget of 94 million for season one.  Not $250 million.  Not sure where the OP for his numbers.

https://www.businessinsider.com/rings-of-power-more-than-a-tv-show-for-amazon-2022-9#:~:text=Amazon dropped big money on,to be around %241 billion.

https://screenrant.com/lotr-rings-power-show-budget-billion-amazon-details/

https://twinfinite.net/2022/09/what-is-rings-of-power-budget-per-episode-answered/

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, king of nowhere said:

It's quite funny to read the back and forth between those that love the silmarillion and those who find it boring. it puts things in perspective of individual tastes. To further keep things into perspective, a lot of tolkien hardocore fans disliked the lotr movies.

 

I haven't watched rop and I have no idea how it is, but all this further reinforces my impression: nothing will ever be as successful as got because now there are too many competitors. got came out and it was the first tv show of its kind, and everyone who wanted that kind of content had to watch it. now we have lots to pick from, so the fans will be more dispersed

It actually boils down to faithfulness to the original work. GOT was very faithful in the early seasons.  It was successful.  It wasn't in later seasons and it started to go downhill.  The mystery is why people still make unfaithful adaptations.  There is a difference from editing to 'save time' to changing characters and arcs entirely. 

 

Most fans will give writers slack when they understand the shortcut they have to take.  They are less thrilled when they make new stuff up out of whole cloth and change their favorite characters into something unrecognizable.  

[Gypsum]

As a horseperson, the scene in episode 7 where Isildur's horse was on its back legs, refusing to go into the village, was one of the most hilarious things I have seen on television. Valandil says desperately, "He won't listen!" Elendil tearfully pleads with horse, "Please, let's just go home." Been there, mate. Totally been there. Definitely have said those things. Teary entreaties definitely achieved nothing.

 

However, they should have added a subtitle, "three hours later," before Elendil yanked off the halter and sent it galloping into the mountains. My old horse was not reliable at trailer loading, and don't think I hadn't thought of that. Especially when there are wargs and orcs about and no reason at all to think your domestic herd animal won't be fine on his lonesome in the wilderness....oh, wait...

Edited October 8, 2022 by Gypsum

[king of nowhere]

11 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

It actually boils down to faithfulness to the original work. GOT was very faithful in the early seasons.  It was successful.  It wasn't in later seasons and it started to go downhill.  The mystery is why people still make unfaithful adaptations.  There is a difference from editing to 'save time' to changing characters and arcs entirely. 

 

Most fans will give writers slack when they understand the shortcut they have to take.  They are less thrilled when they make new stuff up out of whole cloth and change their favorite characters into something unrecognizable.  

I disagree. I am not an expert, but i am sure there are instances of successful undaithful adaptations, and unsuccessful faithful adaptations. As a partial example, movie!aragorn was by many acclaimed as better than book!aragorn.

Sure, there is a correlation between faithfulness and success, but it's not a sure thing.

 

Also, the border line between necessary streamlining and executive meddling is not clear. A lot of apparently needless changes have to do with actor issues, budget limitations, copyright.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

24 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

As a partial example, movie!aragorn was by many acclaimed as better than book!aragorn.

But he was not gratuitously different, just having some of his internal / earlier life angst put on screen / during the time frame of the novels making him a better realised character without exposition or flashbacks.  

 

For me one of the least enjoyable parts of the early seasons of GOT was the change to Rob Starks romance arc - no sense or reason for the change as having Rob seduced by a daughter of one of Tywin Lannisters bannermen (reading between the lines of the books - at Tywin's command to deliberately break the Freys from their allegiance and lead to the red wedding) was a more satisfying path.   

[expat]

Quote

The mystery is why people still make unfaithful adaptations.  There is a difference from editing to 'save time' to changing characters and arcs entirely. 

Adaptations can be good or bad, but this particular criticism always has me pulling out what little hair I have left.  I don't want to go bald, so please stop.

 

The only way you can have a "faithful" adaptation is either you have enough time to perform the source correctly (say 8 episodes for a 300-page book) or the author has lots of irrelevant filler in the source which can be cut without losing the story.  WOT has neither of these advantages, so by definition it will be "unfaithful".

 

The way I think about it is having to prune a 6x4 tapestry to fit a 4x3.5 space with some of the edge pieces critical to the overall tapestry.  You have to prune about 40% of the content of the tapestry from various places.  You can just stitch the remaining pieces back up, but the tapestry would be incoherent because the picture is now badly distorted by the cuts.  You have to add new ("unfaithful") material to bridge between the cuts for the overall tapestry to tell a coherent picture (which is of course not the exact picture of the original tapestry).  Of course, the size is now too large, and you need to cut and rework more material (some original and some of the new stuff).  Repeat a couple of times to get the tapestry within the necessary size and for the pieces to fit together coherently.

 

Again, the overall product can be either good or bad, but changing the source is necessary except in extraordinary condition.

[DojoToad]

16 hours ago, expat said:

 WOT has neither of these advantages, so by definition it will be "unfaithful".

By your definition. Imagine we all have our own definition of adaptation and faithful. 

[expat]

Agree that we all have our own definitions, but the underlying problem remains.  If you cut material for time/budget purposes, you have to account for inconsistencies you introduce.  The only way to fix them is to introduce new material.

 

A good example for me is the Sea Folks.  I think they are a pale reflection of the Aiel Wise Ones (group of channelers not controlled by the White Tower with their own prophecies of the Dragon) and can be completely cut to save time and budget.  They don't really do much, but there are still some loose ends that need fixing.  For one, how do the wondergirls get to Tanchio (leading to their time with the circus, capture of Moggy and trying to find Salidar through the Prophet/Galad/Uno) without them? The Bowl of Winds story needs to be reworked.  The destruction of the female sa'angreal during the cleansing might need rework.  The marriage of Lan and Nyn changes.

 

According to your definition, do these changes (if they happen), make the story "unfaithful"?

[DojoToad]

17 hours ago, expat said:

Agree that we all have our own definitions, but the underlying problem remains.  If you cut material for time/budget purposes, you have to account for inconsistencies you introduce.  The only way to fix them is to introduce new material.

 

A good example for me is the Sea Folks.  I think they are a pale reflection of the Aiel Wise Ones (group of channelers not controlled by the White Tower with their own prophecies of the Dragon) and can be completely cut to save time and budget.  They don't really do much, but there are still some loose ends that need fixing.  For one, how do the wondergirls get to Tanchio (leading to their time with the circus, capture of Moggy and trying to find Salidar through the Prophet/Galad/Uno) without them? The Bowl of Winds story needs to be reworked.  The destruction of the female sa'angreal during the cleansing might need rework.  The marriage of Lan and Nyn changes.

 

According to your definition, do these changes (if they happen), make the story "unfaithful"?

Anything that gets rid of the circus would be a good adaptation, but unfaithful.

 

So I'm not hung up on how faithful it is, but rather how good the adaptation is.

 

The LotR movies were a very successful adaptation that had major bouts of unfaithfulness.  There were huge cuts (Tom Bombadil) and major additions (Arwen) that I thought were done well - whether I liked them or not.  I enjoyed the movies very much.

 

The WoT show had many unfaithful changes as well.  I did not like how most of them were incorporated, and as a result did not enjoy the show.

 

I could see the Sea Folk being cut as they were under-utilized by Jordan.  But would have to see how the changes were made before deciding if they were done well from my perspective.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/8/2022 at 3:42 AM, king of nowhere said:

I disagree. I am not an expert, but i am sure there are instances of successful undaithful adaptations, and unsuccessful faithful adaptations. As a partial example, movie!aragorn was by many acclaimed as better than book!aragorn.

Sure, there is a correlation between faithfulness and success, but it's not a sure thing.

 

Also, the border line between necessary streamlining and executive meddling is not clear. A lot of apparently needless changes have to do with actor issues, budget limitations, copyright.

 

There have been several unfaithful adaptations that were successful.  Forrest Gump was extremely unfaithful, but it was well received.  Starship Troopers was as well.

 

What do both of those have in common?  They were well written and interesting.  They may not be the style for everybody, but they were creative and well thought out.  Both did retain the theme of the books they were based on even if they did take several liberties with the settings and characters.

 

There have been faithful adaptations that didn't do well like Bahksi's version of LOTR.  I liked it when I was a kid because it was the first one I had seen and I was a kid.  

[DojoToad]

Must say I liked episode 8 of RoP. A lot packed in there. The color choice for the gemstones on the Elven rings seemed odd

Edited October 15, 2022 by DojoToad

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

14 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

What do both of those have in common?  They were well written and interesting. 

and almost no one had read (or even heard of) the books before seeing the film

[VooDooNut]

9 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Must say I liked episode 8 of RoP. A lot packed in there. The color choice for the gemstones on the Elven rings seemed odd

The double shot of the rings on the anvil was a bit too much IMO lol.

Spoiler

Like, yeah, we get it, the show is about rings of power and oh! you just made some rings of power! *suprisedpikachuface*

 

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

14 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

and almost no one had read (or even heard of) the books before seeing the film

This is just my two cents. Both the HTTYD books and movies are excellent. As separate things. I think your point can be applied to the movies’ success, in that not many people have read the books. But both are great, you just have to view them as separate things. Does that mean no one can criticize it? No! Everyone can like that they like and hate what they hate, I really don’t care (as long as it’s not for bigoted reasons). People can definitely get very passionate about things they enjoy, and that’s great! But at the end of the day, everyone has their own opinion, and it’s best to just take what you like and leave what you don’t. Movies and TV shows are supposed to be fun, so let them be! 

[Chivalry]

I enjoyed Episode 8 of RoP. In fact, I enjoyed the entire season. It was not a perfect show...they stuffed too much into the finale, developments that (in theory) should have taken more time. Still, I'm looking at the show as a long movie, and things move much more quickly on the big screen than they do on the small screen (or Robert Jordan's world).  All things considered, the series did remind me of how much I enjoyed reading Tolkien as a teen/young man and how much I enjoyed the LotR movies.

 

With all the pre-release criticism and all the resultant toxicity (not to mention the bizarre ad campaign), I had relatively low expectations. The finale left me and my kids (teens) looking forward to the next season.

 

I'm hoping WoT Season 2 steps up its game.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Chivalry