Is it bad for WOT if LOTR is a huge success?

[VooDooNut]

5 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Which is weird because the show is being criticized for being run by the woke...

 

So would one not revel in that which you oppose eating itself?

 

But I digress, if our boi Barney wants to keep it mum, then it is mum.

To be fair, I feel like the "wokeness" of the show's thematic elements and the "wokeness" of the decision to remove Barney from the cast are two VERY different things and should not be conflated.

 

I agree, however, that Barney deserves his privacy. It seems to be a rare commodity these days.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

 

I agree, however, that Barney deserves his privacy. It seems to be a rare commodity these days.

... more rare based on technology and all the different ways people communicate.  But have to admit I'd like to know:

• Artistic differences
• Better offer
• COVID
• Just not interested anymore

Not saying this applies to Barney, but always laugh when a celebrity is always putting themselves out their to promote themselves and their successes - and then ask for privacy when they or someone in their family/inner circle screws up.

[JyP]

On 9/13/2022 at 2:52 AM, SinisterDeath said:

What they're doing is condensing events that unfolded over ~3000 years, into 8 episodes, and who knows how many seasons. The bulk of this season is meant to fit within a single human life span.

We'll probably get the rings of power being created, Galadriel being led on a wild goose chase, the destruction of Numenor, leading to the drums of war as the season finale.

I guess from WoT point of view you would have Age of Legends being somewhat 10 years ago right from the first episode 🤪

 

I wonder how Isamov's Foundation series got adapted ? As it's kind of the same problem, with novels going on during many millenia

[SinisterDeath]

22 minutes ago, JyP said:

I wonder how Isamov's Foundation series got adapted ? As it's kind of the same problem, with novels going on during many millenia

Asimov's Foundation over on Apple TV will 100% hit the same problem. 
So far, they've circumvented it by having two story arcs over two generations.

[holger]

2 hours ago, JyP said:

I wonder how Isamov's Foundation series got adapted ? As it's kind of the same problem, with novels going on during many millenia

AppleTV's adaptation is an extremely loose adaptation, to the point that it should probably not even be called an adaptation, but more of a "TV show inspired by ...". Other than the names of the main characters and places, and the overall concept of psychohistory, almost everything is different. Neither plots nor character arcs were maintained from the original, and most of the show plots were invented for the show. It looks like they intent to use some sci-fi tropes like cryogenic sleep and cloning to carry some of the main characters forward across multiple Seldon crises, so they don't have to swap out the whole cast for each crisis.

Edited September 14, 2022 by holger
typo

[DojoToad]

53 minutes ago, holger said:

AppleTV's adaptation is an extremely loose adaptation, to the point that it should probably not even be called an adaptation, but more of a "TV show inspired by ...". Other than the names of the main characters and places, and the overall concept of psychohistory, almost everything is different. Neither plots not character arcs were maintained from the original, and most of the show plots were invented for the show. 

Sounds like they could have done that with another show as well...

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, holger said:

AppleTV's adaptation is an extremely loose adaptation, to the point that it should probably not even be called an adaptation, but more of a "TV show inspired by ...". Other than the names of the main characters and places, and the overall concept of psychohistory, almost everything is different. Neither plots nor character arcs were maintained from the original, and most of the show plots were invented for the show. It looks like they intent to use some sci-fi tropes like cryogenic sleep and cloning to carry some of the main characters forward across multiple Seldon crises, so they don't have to swap out the whole cast for each crisis.

It's definitely an adaptation.
It made many nods to the source material, while adding in stuff for drama/action that the original didn't have.

Adapting those novels, 1:1 simply wouldn't work on Screen.. (Caves of Steel and it's sequels, would work much better as a 1:1 adaptation then Foundation.)

Foundation is too much of a macro story to work in a microscopic way we watch TV. If they adapted the show to look like the books, it would basically look like the first episode of Rings of Power which was almost entirely exposition spanning thousands of years.

Also: Dialogue, character building, and Women, weren't exactly Asimov's strong suit in terms of writing. We're not losing much by them not including his dialogue.

For reference: The first Foundation novel spans at least 155 years, and is comprised of basically 4 main stories in 255 pages.

The TV show basically covers the first story, and maybe the second, or at least the precursor to that first story. The biggest thing they changed from the source material?
 

Spoiler

Is that Harry Seldon is now a consciousness in a machine. While this fundamentally changes what we know about his predictions, it's also something he would 100% do. A theme in the novels is that people lie, and Harry Seldon was 100% a liar. He wasn't lying about the Empire collapsing, but he lied about other things. If this idea was available to Asimov in the 50s when this was written, Seldon making himself out to be a prophet while simultaneously actually being a alive to make the predictions fit, is 100% within his characters motivations... and fits within the technology capable throughout the novels, and what the Robots are doing in the background.

 

[WhiteVeils]

11 hours ago, DojoToad said:

... more rare based on technology and all the different ways people communicate.  But have to admit I'd like to know:

• Artistic differences
• Better offer
• COVID
• Just not interested anymore

Not saying this applies to Barney, but always laugh when a celebrity is always putting themselves out their to promote themselves and their successes - and then ask for privacy when they or someone in their family/inner circle screws up.

Given how little information it is, it is much more likely a mental or physical illness for him or someone close to him, and privacy should be respected. It's probably not funny at all.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Given how little information it is, it is much more likely a mental or physical illness for him or someone close to him, and privacy should be respected. It's probably not funny at all.

Of course his privacy should be respected. I was trying to contrast him against all the big self promoters out there. I hope his leaving was not not caused by some tragedy. But I’m also still curious. Not keeping me up at night - we’ll find out someday or not…

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 9/14/2022 at 9:05 AM, holger said:

AppleTV's adaptation is an extremely loose adaptation, to the point that it should probably not even be called an adaptation, but more of a "TV show inspired by ...". Other than the names of the main characters and places, and the overall concept of psychohistory, almost everything is different. Neither plots nor character arcs were maintained from the original, and most of the show plots were invented for the show. It looks like they intent to use some sci-fi tropes like cryogenic sleep and cloning to carry some of the main characters forward across multiple Seldon crises, so they don't have to swap out the whole cast for each crisis.

Feels like you just described the WoT show to a T. 

 

Side note I have a friend that has read the Azimov books and said basically the same thing.  I told him about the upcoming WoT show and his basic comment was don't get your hopes up for it given recent 'adaption' track records.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Side note I have a friend that has read the Azimov books and said basically the same thing.

Asimov, Isaac Asimov.

[holger]

2 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Feels like you just described the WoT show to a T. 

 

No, Foundation and WoT are not even close with respect to how much they deviate from the source material. On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being "adaptation in name only" and 10 being "identical", I would rate the Jackson LotR movies around 8, the WoT series around 5, and Foundation around 1-2.

[Sabio]

Problem is the Tolkein family hated the movies to refused to allow the Rings of Power to be based on or part of the movie lore.  One could wonder what may have happened had RJ's wife taken a more demanding stance on the WOT series.

[mogi68]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:14 AM, SinisterDeath said:

How important to the lore is it, that they were crafted 1600 years before the person that ultimately cuts off Sauron's finger was born?

They could do the time-skip thing with Elves in the past, and men/hobbits in the present and work their way forward, but audiences hate confusing timelines. *cough* Season 1 of the Witcher *cough*

Ultimately, they're dealing with 6000+ years of history, and they have to condense that into 8 episodes, in a way that is enjoyable and not a snooze fest like "The Silmarillion".

Dunno about you, but I'd hate to watch the "Rings of Power" WW2 History Channel style.

 

I'd prefer each season to be somewhat self contained in it's own era & storyline, like a set of mini-series. Obviously they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion so it's a moot point.

 

And the History Channel hasn't been good since they stopped doing all that WW2 history 🙄

Edited September 20, 2022 by mogi68

[notpropaganda73]

Episode 4 was poor imo. It's been a mixed bag of a series so far. The good elements I really like but they feel few and far between. 

 

I was glad not to see the Harfoots this episode but I feel this means they'll feature heavily soon. As an Irish person the more I see them the more annoyed I get. Lazy tropes. 

[DojoToad]

44 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Episode 4 was poor imo. It's been a mixed bag of a series so far. The good elements I really like but they feel few and far between. 

 

I was glad not to see the Harfoots this episode but I feel this means they'll feature heavily soon. As an Irish person the more I see them the more annoyed I get. Lazy tropes. 

No Harfoots?  I'm in!  Forgot to watch it this weekend - which probably indicates how much I like it.  Don't hate it, but obviously not waiting with bated breath either...

[nsmallw]

The ROP is an odd mix. Amazing visuals but bad writing ..sounds familar huh lol

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

The ROP is an odd mix. Amazing visuals but bad writing ..sounds familar huh lol

 

The bad in ROP is much worse than the bad in WoT for me. 

[DojoToad]

54 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

The bad in ROP is much worse than the bad in WoT for me. 

Opposite for me because I don’t know middle earth nearly as well

[VooDooNut]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

The bad in ROP is much worse than the bad in WoT for me. 

I take it you didn't like the slow-mo horse-riding scene?

[VooDooNut]

I doubt anything that I see in ROP is going to top my appreciation for the Peter Jackson LOTR movies, and I'm ok with that. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

15 hours ago, mogi68 said:

 

I'd prefer each season to be somewhat self contained in it's own era & storyline, like a set of mini-series. Obviously they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion so it's a moot point.

 

And the History Channel hasn't been good since they stopped doing all that WW2 history 🙄

That is how the Silmarillion is written.  Basically each chapter is a different self contained part of the history.  Amazon really messed up when they didn't get the rights to the Silmarillion.  They could have done 1-3 episodes on each relevant era and made a good and entertaining tale.  

 

Instead they went mystery box generic fantasy approach with a vaguely Tolkien skin on it.  It comes across as more ignorant of lore than it does as trying to burn it down.  If any of the writers read the Silmarillion it doesn't show in their script.  Most of its shortcomings are from the terrible writing and making elves act like generic humans. 

 

 

 

 

[AdamA]

I think it's been mostly fine, nothing spectacular, but nothing really stands out as outright terrible "what were they thinking" moments, like frankly a lot of WoT did. At least to me. I guess I'm the only one that actually likes the Harfoot story line so far, but I'm not European and have no idea what a real Irish person is supposed to sound like. Pathetic attempts at American southern and Texan accents grate on me, though, so I guess I understand.

 

I'm not at all a fan of Galadriel's portrayal, though. I get what they're going for with "young" Galadriel, but young is still thousands of years old. She shouldn't have the perspective and emotional maturity of a human in her 20s. It especially stands out after just reading the Broken Earth trilogy and watching Invincible last year for some very interesting perspectives on what immortality might entail in terms of really alien psychologies totally different from humans.

 

Not a fan of mystery boxes, either, especially since we know where the story is going, but at least "who is Sauron" is more compelling than "who is the dragon" since we legitimately don't know in this case.

 

Though it looks like Amazon is probably never going to give straight up numbers that can be meaningfully compared to other television, it does seem to be drawing a large viewership and it's hit pop culture pretty hard, though without any metrics, my skimming the headlines subjective impression is that House of the Dragon is still getting more pop culture traction and attention than this is, but this is still bigger than anything else Amazon has had.

 

For potential impact on Wheel of Time, this is probably the best case scenario. Popular enough to leave people wanting more and possibly watching Wheel of Time, but it's not so mindblowing that it'll make Wheel of Time look terrible in comparison. I still think a problem with Wheel of Time is that it looks so small scale in comparison, which is not fair at all to the world as depicted in Jordan's writing, but I guess we'll soon find out how much of that had to do with filming during Covid restrictions and how much is just the producers not knowing how to make best use of the budget, which isn't Rings of Power big, but is still big.

[SinisterDeath]

19 hours ago, mogi68 said:

 

I'd prefer each season to be somewhat self contained in it's own era & storyline, like a set of mini-series. Obviously they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion so it's a moot point.

 

And the History Channel hasn't been good since they stopped doing all that WW2 history 🙄

Well, they certainly had some great shows during that Era, but tuning into History Channel on WW2 week (or month?) I'd just flip the channel.

The Silmarillion is a boring book; And I personally believe that the only way they can make a TV show the hard core book nerds will enjoy, is to make something equally as boring. E.g. Make it like WW2 history week on History Channel. 

Anyways, here's a relevant meme.

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

30 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Anyways, here's a relevant meme.

Somebody should show that to 10 year old me- never finished it, probably never will. I’m still not convinced I didn’t just skip half the Two Towers somehow either