Is it bad for WOT if LOTR is a huge success?

[Terry05]

7 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

That is how the Silmarillion is written.  Basically each chapter is a different self contained part of the history.  Amazon really messed up when they didn't get the rights to the Silmarillion.  They could have done 1-3 episodes on each relevant era and made a good and entertaining tale.  

 

Instead they went mystery box generic fantasy approach with a vaguely Tolkien skin on it.  It comes across as more ignorant of lore than it does as trying to burn it down.  If any of the writers read the Silmarillion it doesn't show in their script.  Most of its shortcomings are from the terrible writing and making elves act like generic humans. 

 

 

 

 

I might be wrong here and correct me if I am, but didn't the Tolkien estate knock back any offer involving the First Age i.e. The Silmarillion? This might be something that we can't blame Amazon for.

[templar7]

6 hours ago, Terry05 said:

I might be wrong here and correct me if I am, but didn't the Tolkien estate knock back any offer involving the First Age i.e. The Silmarillion? This might be something that we can't blame Amazon for.

They did as far as I know. The appendices of LotR -all they have- still seem greatly underused or ignored. I love the Silmarillion. its my favorite book of all time...  Personally, I wouldnt have bothered at all without its rights.

[Terry05]

26 minutes ago, templar7 said:

They did as far as I know. The appendices of LotR -all they have- still seem greatly underused or ignored. I love the Silmarillion. its my favorite book of all time...  Personally, I wouldnt have bothered at all without its rights.

It's a book I've tried to read a few times - I'm going to give it a proper go this time

[templar7]

If anything it should help level the playing field -budget wise- between the two shows. They put 80% of their cards on lotr and a small fraction of that on the long shot WoT.  Hopefully we see some rings money funneled Rand's way.

Rings of Power had a blank cheque budget and somehow missed the target entirely.  By comparison or not, the Wheel of time is a huge success.  Despite having a much smaller budget, fewer episodes and casting turmoil, Rafe delivered a better show...

[templar7]

2 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

It's a book I've tried to read a few times - I'm going to give it a proper go this time

I found it very difficult until I got the unabridged audio book. Its exceptional in its presentation and read with near perfect pronunciation and delivery.  Once I got through all 14 hours. was hooked. since then ive read it a dozen times and listened to it again a dozen more. you'll thank yourself when you do.

[Jake Sykwalker]

6 hours ago, templar7 said:

I found it very difficult until I got the unabridged audio book. Its exceptional in its presentation and read with near perfect pronunciation and delivery.  Once I got through all 14 hours. was hooked. since then ive read it a dozen times and listened to it again a dozen more. you'll thank yourself when you do.

Great suggestion.  The audiobook is very helpful to get through it.  That is what eventually got me through the first couple of chapters.  Even then I had to pause and rewind many times because it is so dense and moves so fast.

 

The hardest part of the Silmarillion is the first couple of chapters.  If you can force your way through them there are very good stories in there.  The first part is the creation of the universe and the Valar.  It is very dense and covers a ton of ground quickly.

 

If you just wanted to get some history on Galadriel and the Elves for the show you could read "of the Darkening of Valinor" and "of the Flight of the Noldor."  You would be missing a bunch of back story on the elves, but it would get you to the point of the beginning of the intro where Melkor wounded the trees which provided light to the world.

 

The problem is the Galadriel and Finrod in the show are not like what is in the book.  In the show Galadriel is an angsty American teenager and her brother is a throwaway we know nothing about.  They basically fridge Finrod and ignore that he was a king and did other things.  Tolkien's world is very rich with history, but they don't use much of it.  Not sure if that is due to licensing, or lazy writing.  

 

From of the flight of the Noldor: 

 

" But Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone; and Orodreth, alone of his sons, spoke in like manner. Finrod was with Turgon, his friend; but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Feanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin's son, being moved also by Feanor's words, though he loved him little; and with Fingon stood as they ever did Angrod and Aegnor, sons of Finarfin. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers."

 

Feanor swore revenge on Melkor (or Morgoth as he came to be known), but Galadriel left because she wanted to see the world.  With the trees gone the only light left was in the Silmarils that Feanor created and Melkor stole after slaying Feanor's father the king of the Noldor.  The Valar wanted the Silmarils to heal the trees, but Feanor wanted revenge and his gems back.  

 

Finrod did die after fighting with Sauron personally, but it was at the hands of a werewolf after he was imprisoned.  It wasn't on a generic battlefield, but on a quest for a Silmaril to help Beren whose family he swore an oath to.  He died after killing the werewolf protecting his friend and keeping his oath.  The story is called The lay of Leithian. 

 

 

 

[Chivalry]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:34 AM, Terry05 said:

It's a book I've tried to read a few times - I'm going to give it a proper go this time

Maybe I'll try the audio as a sleep story. 

 

But seriously, I'm not a comic book guy, but I'm thinking a graphic novel/comic book might be more tolerable.

[templar7]

On 9/21/2022 at 11:28 AM, Jake Sykwalker said:

Great suggestion.  The audiobook is very helpful to get through it.  That is what eventually got me through the first couple of chapters.  Even then I had to pause and rewind many times because it is so dense and moves so fast.

 

The hardest part of the Silmarillion is the first couple of chapters.  If you can force your way through them there are very good stories in there.  The first part is the creation of the universe and the Valar.  It is very dense and covers a ton of ground quickly.

 

If you just wanted to get some history on Galadriel and the Elves for the show you could read "of the Darkening of Valinor" and "of the Flight of the Noldor."  You would be missing a bunch of back story on the elves, but it would get you to the point of the beginning of the intro where Melkor wounded the trees which provided light to the world.

 

The problem is the Galadriel and Finrod in the show are not like what is in the book.  In the show Galadriel is an angsty American teenager and her brother is a throwaway we know nothing about.  They basically fridge Finrod and ignore that he was a king and did other things.  Tolkien's world is very rich with history, but they don't use much of it.  Not sure if that is due to licensing, or lazy writing.  

 

From of the flight of the Noldor: 

 

" But Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone; and Orodreth, alone of his sons, spoke in like manner. Finrod was with Turgon, his friend; but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Feanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin's son, being moved also by Feanor's words, though he loved him little; and with Fingon stood as they ever did Angrod and Aegnor, sons of Finarfin. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers."

 

Feanor swore revenge on Melkor (or Morgoth as he came to be known), but Galadriel left because she wanted to see the world.  With the trees gone the only light left was in the Silmarils that Feanor created and Melkor stole after slaying Feanor's father the king of the Noldor.  The Valar wanted the Silmarils to heal the trees, but Feanor wanted revenge and his gems back.  

 

Finrod did die after fighting with Sauron personally, but it was at the hands of a werewolf after he was imprisoned.  It wasn't on a generic battlefield, but on a quest for a Silmaril to help Beren whose family he swore an oath to.  He died after killing the werewolf protecting his friend and keeping his oath.  The story is called The lay of Leithian. 

 

 

 

 

On 9/21/2022 at 3:43 AM, templar7 said:

I found it very difficult until I got the unabridged audio book. Its exceptional in its presentation and read with near perfect pronunciation and delivery.  Once I got through all 14 hours. was hooked. since then ive read it a dozen times and listened to it again a dozen more. you'll thank yourself when you do.

If had more patience I would have written something similar. I totally agree! \

You also make a great point that the Silmarillion is in fact a collection of stories told in brief, of the history of Middle Earth.. and beyond.

 

"Of the Rings of Power, and the third age" is where things may be more familiar maybe.

 

But Ya. you can explore the book nonlinear.

[Jake Sykwalker]

19 hours ago, Chivalry said:

Maybe I'll try the audio as a sleep story. 

 

But seriously, I'm not a comic book guy, but I'm thinking a graphic novel/comic book might be more tolerable.

That would be great actually.  There are illustrated versions of the Silmarillion, but not nearly a graphic novel.  

 

The Wheel of Time did have a comic book series for EOTW that was great.  I would recommend it.  

[king of nowhere]

It's quite funny to read the back and forth between those that love the silmarillion and those who find it boring. it puts things in perspective of individual tastes. To further keep things into perspective, a lot of tolkien hardocore fans disliked the lotr movies.

 

I haven't watched rop and I have no idea how it is, but all this further reinforces my impression: nothing will ever be as successful as got because now there are too many competitors. got came out and it was the first tv show of its kind, and everyone who wanted that kind of content had to watch it. now we have lots to pick from, so the fans will be more dispersed

Edited September 23, 2022 by king of nowhere

[DojoToad]

I did notice that the elves didn’t look distinctly different from the humans other than the ears. In LOTR, they looked different even if the ears were covered 

[notpropaganda73]

On 9/20/2022 at 5:38 PM, VooDooNut said:

I take it you didn't like the slow-mo horse-riding scene?

haha, that actually didn't bother me half as much as it seemed to bother the internet. But how they're writing Galadriel definitely lends itself to some of the worst moments so far. Between the initial court scene and the latest episode "fight training" scene, which felt more like a musical dance number, I've found that story thread a hard watch even though I love seeing Numenor. 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:25 PM, AdamA said:

I think it's been mostly fine, nothing spectacular, but nothing really stands out as outright terrible "what were they thinking" moments, like frankly a lot of WoT did. At least to me. I guess I'm the only one that actually likes the Harfoot story line so far, but I'm not European and have no idea what a real Irish person is supposed to sound like. Pathetic attempts at American southern and Texan accents grate on me, though, so I guess I understand.

 

It's actually not just the accents. They are very bad to passable generic Irish accents. I've heard much worse from watching Hollywood movies over the years. Take a look at Wild Mountain Thyme's trailer if you want to hear a bad "diddly aye di die" Irish accent from Irishman Jamie Dornan (and the rest of the cast, but the fact Dornan is from here and can't do the accent is an indicator really). I'm not too harsh on actors doing bad stereotypical Irish accents as I think it's a directive from studios/directors a lot of the time. Plus accents are just hard.

 

Anyway, it's everything else about the Harfoots combined with the accents. They are full of lazy tropes about Celtic people coming from the Anglo-superiority angle. It's also a very definite choice made that the wandering, semi-nomadic, uncultured, dirty-looking race are the twee Irish while every other race are already at their fully formed civilised level. While Tolkien himself was on record as not being very impressed with Celtic culture and mythology (even though his elves are basically the Tuatha Dé Danann) he never made any points about accents in his writing to my memory. But of course, the elves all have noble English accents and their accents don't change through the millennia, the dwarves are Scottish and their accents don't change (though there's plenty of tropes there too), the Southlanders and Numenoreans have their English accents and they don't change, but the Hobbits are stand-ins for rural England and so have those English accents when we see them in LotR- but these unsettled, uncultured, twigs-in-their-hair dirty proto-Hobbits? Begorrah shur haven't dey only just got off de boat from Oireland! 

 

Never mind the idea that their culture is wrong in some way and Nori is railing against that. I haven't even touched on the Traveller culture aspect of it. It's not being shown as any positives to the culture at all. The Tinkers in WoT are just shown much more respectfully, and they were given some of the best writing in the show in my opinion with that brilliant speech from Ila on the Way of the Leaf. The Harfoots are meant to show us what, exactly? A community that abandons their own because they twist an ankle? A community that turns their back on someone in need just because they are different from themselves, until that person shows some value to them? It's not exactly what I'd call sympathetic to Traveller culture. 

 

I realise this can all sound nitpicky or "wanting to be offended" - to be clear I'm not really offended, in fact I laughed quite a bit when I first saw the Harfoots (which I'm sure isn't the intention of the creators) - but I'm just tired of seeing these tropes and find them lazy and boring and just not helpful at all. Why make all of the Harfoots sound sort of Irish at all?

 

What's the betting that due to the Stranger or some interactions with more noble folks we will see the Harfoots settle down and suddenly they all sound English in a couple of seasons? 

[notpropaganda73]

Honestly just google "Punch magazine Irish" and look at the images, and then look at the Harfoots. 

[Gypsum]

There is definitely an odd hierarchy of accents that makes the worst out of stereotypes. Even amongst the Men, the Numenoreans have posh Southern English accents, while the rough Southlanders have Northern accents, escept for Halbrand. Why doesn't he also sound Northern?

 

I don't remember, from back when I read a lot about Tolkien, if he himself thought of his peoples as corresponding to various cutures in the British Isles. He definitely borrowed from older mythologies everywhere, as only an English prof can. However, I remember reading something that asserted he did not much like Scottish Gaelic/Irish as languages, and his main inspiration for Sindarin was Welsh.

 

If they are going to stick with accents from the British Isles, it would have been far more entertaining if the showrunners made the Elves sound like they were from Glasgow.

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Gypsum said:

However, I remember reading something that asserted he did not much like Scottish Gaelic/Irish as languages, and his main inspiration for Sindarin was Welsh.

 

I am not sure about the inspiration for Sindarin but he definitely wasn't a fan of Irish as a language:

 

"I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive."

 

There was also this letter because of the black speech name for ring and Irish word for ring being so similar: 

 

“nazg: the word for ‘ring’ m the Black Speech. …it remains remarkable that nasc is the word for ‘ring’ in Gaelic (Irish: in Scottish usually written nasg). It also fits well in meaning, since it also means, and prob. originally meant, a bond, and can be used for an ‘obligation’. Nonetheless I only became aware, or again aware, of its existence recently in looking for something in a Gaelic dictionary. I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language, but it is of course of great historical and philological interest, and I have at various times studied it. (With alas! very little success.) It is thus probable that nazg is actually derived from it, and this short, hard and clear vocable, sticking out from what seems to me (an unloving alien) a mushy language, became lodged in some comer of my linguistic memory.”

 

There's a very well researched article on Tolkien and Ireland here if anyone is interested, though it is quite long: https://ansionnachfionn.com/leabhair-books/j-r-r-tolkien-and-ireland/

[VooDooNut]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I am not sure about the inspiration for Sindarin but he definitely wasn't a fan of Irish as a language:

 

"I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive."

 

There was also this letter because of the black speech name for ring and Irish word for ring being so similar: 

 

“nazg: the word for ‘ring’ m the Black Speech. …it remains remarkable that nasc is the word for ‘ring’ in Gaelic (Irish: in Scottish usually written nasg). It also fits well in meaning, since it also means, and prob. originally meant, a bond, and can be used for an ‘obligation’. Nonetheless I only became aware, or again aware, of its existence recently in looking for something in a Gaelic dictionary. I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language, but it is of course of great historical and philological interest, and I have at various times studied it. (With alas! very little success.) It is thus probable that nazg is actually derived from it, and this short, hard and clear vocable, sticking out from what seems to me (an unloving alien) a mushy language, became lodged in some comer of my linguistic memory.”

 

There's a very well researched article on Tolkien and Ireland here if anyone is interested, though it is quite long: https://ansionnachfionn.com/leabhair-books/j-r-r-tolkien-and-ireland/

Wow. The whole second quote reeks of superiority and disrespect. Why does Tolkien have such disdain for Gaelic?? Did some pretty Irish lass break his heart when he was young? /s

 

Surely, as a professor of a spoken language, it's possible to find (some) beauty in all languages (familiar, alien, or otherwise). Even contrast can be beautiful. Odd.

 

I've only just started reading the article you linked, but it, coupled with this post, provide a fascinating insight into English and Irish history/rivalry that I was unaware of.

Thanks for sharing, @notpropaganda73

[notpropaganda73]

5 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Wow. The whole second quote reeks of superiority and disrespect. Why does Tolkien have such disdain for Gaelic?? Did some pretty Irish lass break his heart when he was young? /s

 

Surely, as a professor of a spoken language, it's possible to find (some) beauty in all languages (familiar, alien, or otherwise). Even contrast can be beautiful. Odd.

 

I've only just started reading the article you linked, but it, coupled with this post, provide a fascinating insight into English and Irish history/rivalry that I was unaware of.

Thanks for sharing, @notpropaganda73

 

No worries - I'd actually say Tolkien has a more sympathetic view of Ireland than many of his time and class/upbringing, it seems to be particularly the language itself he has a problem with rather than the country! It is very odd considering his love of languages overall. I am most definitely biased as an Irish speaker as well but I love my language, I think there's a lot of beauty in it. 

Anyway, fair to say I'm veering slightly away from the topic of the thread at this point

[templar7]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:06 PM, king of nowhere said:

It's quite funny to read the back and forth between those that love the silmarillion and those who find it boring. it puts things in perspective of individual tastes. To further keep things into perspective, a lot of tolkien hardocore fans disliked the lotr movies.

 

I haven't watched rop and I have no idea how it is, but all this further reinforces my impression: nothing will ever be as successful as got because now there are too many competitors. got came out and it was the first tv show of its kind, and everyone who wanted that kind of content had to watch it. now we have lots to pick from, so the fans will be more dispersed

I totally agree... And I'm one of those hardcore fans of Tolkien, pretty hyper critical to the films. But I do like them to point. I think they are as good as they could have been.

[Meskell]

Just watched the latest RoP episode and actually forgot that I hadn’t watched this weeks one until my wife pointed it out. 
 

It doesn’t look like it stacks up for the amount of money spent on it but some thoughts:

 

- doesn’t seem sure of what it is trying to be. Ranges from horror, to children’s humour, to bland intrigue sometimes across a single scene. Needs to settle down on what it wants to be. 
- the Harfoots are incredibly annoying. The scents, the culture, Lenny Henry, just annoying. 
- Isildur just feels pointless and I don’t see how he is meant to become a great king of men. 
- Galadriel is an angry teenage girl despite being thousands of years old. 
- I feel that the storylines are too disparate, it doesn’t feel like there is something driving them all together.

- timeline feels pretty wild. Harfoots go on a huge migration, that looks to take weeks, as a minimum, but everything else appears to be happening within a day or two. 

[Chivalry]

Not to pile on, but even as a teen, I was troubled by Tolkien's decision to make the 'Southrons' and 'Easterlings' the bad humans...loyal to Morgoth and Sauron and enemies of the free people of the West. Some of those Middle Earth savages even rode elephants, iirc.

Seriously, he made the dark skinned folk from the South and the East the bad guys. Ouch...

 

 

 

 

[JyP]

On 9/24/2022 at 1:14 PM, Gypsum said:

There is definitely an odd hierarchy of accents that makes the worst out of stereotypes. Even amongst the Men, the Numenoreans have posh Southern English accents, while the rough Southlanders have Northern accents, escept for Halbrand. Why doesn't he also sound Northern?

As I watch RoP (and WoT) in french, there's amusingly the same issue, but in reverse : all people talk the same standard french. Dwarves have some kind of rolling "R" accents and gravel voices which I cannot pinpoint.

 

By standard French, it really means Parisian French - there have been efforts to eradicate accents and local dialects in France for a long time, and even today people having accents on TV points to low-class or excentrics characters, or to mark some kind of exoticism. 

[Gypsum]

2 hours ago, JyP said:

As I watch RoP (and WoT) in french, there's amusingly the same issue, but in reverse : all people talk the same standard french. Dwarves have some kind of rolling "R" accents and gravel voices which I cannot pinpoint.

 

By standard French, it really means Parisian French - there have been efforts to eradicate accents and local dialects in France for a long time, and even today people having accents on TV points to low-class or excentrics characters, or to mark some kind of exoticism. 

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I have not seen the LOTR movies in a long time (and not since I moved from the States to Scotland and became more switched on to this sort of thing), but I don't recall accents being so obviously attached to race/species. Most of the characters, from Hobbits to Wizards, spoke something vaguely resembling the Queen's English (just adding weirdly rolled R's), with a few exceptions. I think Billy Boyd softened his accent, so he didn't sound quite so Glasgow as Pippin, and John Rhys Davies made Gimli sound different from the others, but not really all that Scottish.

 

The TV showrunners are, as you say, using accents we are familiar with to mark exoticism or social class. It's fair to have different races speak with different accents, but if they did this in a random or stereotype-subverting way (let's make the Harfoots sound American and the Elves sound Irish...or whatever), I don't think it would have jumped out in such a cringey way.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gypsum

[nsmallw]

I suppose if every race in Middle Earth sounded like Americans, ppl would complain that the show isn't being diverse enough lol.  We humans love to gripe.   

 

I saw a YouTube video which pointed out that Tolkien didn't expressly give Elves pointed ears or make them all blondes, it's the movie/show producers that have made that "canon". 

 

That's why books are so good. We can make the characters sound and identify however makes the reader most comfortable. No outside force can stir that vision. In fact, each new iteration enriches the story. Plenty of good books that have never been made into movie, or tv show, so we should be grateful.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

13 hours ago, nsmallw said:

I saw a YouTube video which pointed out that Tolkien didn't expressly give Elves pointed ears or make them all blondes, it's the movie/show producers that have made that "canon". 

 

Only the grey elves (Sindar) were depicted as uniformly blonde.  The Noldor were depicted as largely dark haired expect certain specific individuals (which is in line with the books) and the wood elves (Avar) are also depicted as dark / reddish haired.