tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Sabio]

15 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Because of time and budget issues it could be even more difficult to recreate original moments and storylines in a good and faithful way? These Logain and Stepin storylines and episodes as a whole explain a lot of important lore that the audience will remember and understand in future seasons and they also condense book moments. There's not that much stuff that's completely missing at this point. Many plotlines and moments have just been replaced and reworked to fit the episodes.

I understand the Logain and Steph episodes explain some stuff for the future, but they didn't need to be entire episodes.  The main complaint is they spent too long, for instance the time used for the melting of the ring wasn't needed, the warder funeral chest pounding seemed sort of silly.  In an 8 episode series time is precious.

[mogi68]

Hitting plot points is the most basic criteria for an adaptation. There is also such a thing as tone, characterization, and aesthetic.

 

The show is (in my humble opinion) falling short for a few main characters in terms of characterization.

1. Rand is missing the primary internal conflict he had in the novel (the question of Tam, and who he really is). I realize that we will see the Blood Snow flashback, but that doesn't change the fact that he verbally pines for Egwene in near every scene, which is a far cry from his character in the books. Even when he picks up The Travels of Jain Farstrider, he thinks of her instead of his father (which he does in the Queen's Blessing in TEOTW).

2. Perrin's development has been arrested on account of Laila's death. After Winternight, he has yet to do violence to anyone, kill a man, or even pick up a weapon. Young Bull has not yet been born.

3. Egwene has not discarded Two Rivers tradition - it has been done for her.

4. Nynaeve does not have an adversarial relationship with Moiraine.

5. Lan has not developed a relationship with Rand.

 

I know that some of these things may come later, but timing is important. The development of these characters influences the way that they move through the world, react to events, and so on. There are some missing threads in the pattern is all.

 

disclaimer: I not want the show to fail by any means or am bashing it. I want it to succeed and for everyone to have a good time watching it. There were parts of the first few episodes I really enjoyed

Edited December 6, 2021 by mogi68

[LordyLord]

16 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Because of time and budget issues it could be even more difficult to recreate original moments and storylines in a good and faithful way? These Logain and Stepin storylines and episodes as a whole explain a lot of important lore that the audience will remember and understand in future seasons and they also condense book moments. There's not that much stuff that's completely missing at this point. Many plotlines and moments have just been replaced and reworked to fit the episodes.

So I dont agree on adding storylines that take away from Good storylines in the book. If you are adding storylines, it must add to the main plot of the season. Because you have only 8 episodes

 

For example Logains plotline didnt take away from the Morainne/Lan/Nynaeve plotline in Season 1 .It actually enhanced it whilst building up the future.

 

The Stepin plotline on the other hand  did not enhance Morainne/Lan/Nynave plotline for Season 1.

What it does is setup for Season 3 ALONE. Whilst taking away screentime for Season 1 main plot

Thats what makes it a Bad change.Its a change that exists only to setup whilst taking away screentime from characters who need it.

 

This is why the Logain change was praised and the Stepin expansion is being dragged.

[KakitaOCU]

7 hours ago, Bruan said:

I can’t honestly say it’s and adaptation. It is more of a re-write. Rather than doing the best they can to recreate Jordan’s work in film, it feels to me more like “Hi, I’m Rafe, I’ll be your DM. Let’s all roll up a character loosely based on your favorite wheel of time character and we’ll play a campaign I thought up based on the novels.”

Which is great as your opinion, but it's also over the top and ignores what's actually there.  No sense in debating again, it's been debated elsewhere.  Characters aren't actually changed, core plot isn't actually changed.

For what it's worth, RJ2 said the first book is the one with the most changes because it's the most unlike the rest of the series and wanders in weird ways compared to the rest of the narrative.

[Sabio]

It's hard to build an adversarial relationship with Moiraine when she spent like 2 episodes doing nothing and just laying there near death.

 

I think it natural people spend more time discussing issues they had with the series over things they liked, doesn't mean anyone wants the series to fail  The series to me is good, not great, but I'm glad they made it and will enjoy watching the new episodes.  Since the biggest complaint seems to be inconsistent pacing, I would guess had Amazon went to 10 or 12 episodes many of the complaints would have gone away.  I think they got stuff right and made some good changes but they got some stuff wrong and also made some bad changes.

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

For what it's worth, RJ2 said the first book is the one with the most changes because it's the most unlike the rest of the series and wanders in weird ways compared to the rest of the narrative.

 

That is an interesting statement. Where did he say this please? I believe you, but have not seen it myself and would like to see the context

[Sabio]

I believe it, just think of the changes made in episode 1.  Perin having a wife, Eg and Rand doing the deed, Mat's family, sacred pool, Egwene getting tossed in a river, the whole trolloc attack had to be made up, Tam's head nod as Rand was leaving, no fever dream, Nyn being born outside the Two Rivers, and most of Fain's narrative wasn't there.  So the majority of episode 1 was new.

[Bruan]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Which is great as your opinion, but it's also over the top and ignores what's actually there.  No sense in debating again, it's been debated elsewhere.  Characters aren't actually changed, core plot isn't actually changed.

For what it's worth, RJ2 said the first book is the one with the most changes because it's the most unlike the rest of the series and wanders in weird ways compared to the rest of the narrative.

i seem to recall some mention of making changes so it’s more of an ensemble piece. Honestly, I do hope we’ve seen the bulk of the big changes already and see the rest becoming more like the story as written. 

[nsmallw]

On 12/3/2021 at 9:00 AM, mogi68 said:

 

If I were the show runner heh, I would have done something more like this:

 

• Have Stepin kill himself towards the beginning of the episode, by hanging or with blade. Lan finds him and collapses to his knees, end scene.
• Moiraine and Lan after returning to the tower hear of whitecloaks near Tar Valon. Moiraine is troubled by this, and they go to check it out.
• Nynaeve comes with them because she doesn't trust Moiraine and doesn't want to be in the tower
• They find the beaten tinkers and ask what happened, learn of two whitecloak prisoners who match the description of Egwene and Perrin
• They wait until nightfall and execute the rescue much as they did in the book

Boom. It leaves room for fun whiz-bang explosions and lightning, leaves room for heroic moments from pretty much everyone (they can keep Egwene's defiance and Perrin's goldeneyes), and we still get the emotional devastation from Stepin's suicide in the beginning.

 

Perfect adaptation! THAT would have been awesome. Unfortunately, with their limited budget they can't really afford huge explosions and lightning CGI in  many instances, need to save that money for the ending episode for example. But still, I think what you described is a perfect way to handle the issues that exist in the episode as shown. 

[nsmallw]

On 12/3/2021 at 9:10 AM, pyrusmole said:

I'll defend this.

Let's assume for a moment that Loial knows a bit about Two Rivers dress and cultural practices (like the braid). I know that's a big assumption but just grant it to me, okay? So he runs into Nynaeve in the Tar Valon library and it passes his mind "She's dressed like a Two Rivers person." I'm pretty sure the first thing book or show Loial is going to say is something along the lines of

"Hello there, I'm Loial son of Arent son of Haren. You have dress like a friend of mine. Are you from the Two Rivers as well? Oh you are, and you're a wisdom? So you're a healer? Fascinating. This reminds me of ... Oh yes my friend. Would you happen to know a Rand al'Thor, he's an Aielm... {Interrupted by Nynaeve}

I wish they had the scene of Loial walking around TV and meeting Nyneave in the garden. Have that scene and delete some of the Stepin arc. 

[Raezold]

15 hours ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

You say “on the contrary” but I’m pretty sure your statement is in agreement with mine.

 

I think 10-12 “feels” right but we both acknowledge they need more than 8 but less than 20.

 

The number of episodes doesn’t really matter to me. Only that they’re telling the story well. If they could do that in 5 episodes for the season I’d be ok with it (they obviously can’t, just an example). I’d prefer to have a shorter season and we’ll told story than more episodes but dragging story.

 

In this case, feels like they definitely need more than 8 eps to make certain beats truly robust.

 

13 hours ago, Bruan said:

I think we partially agree. I still think 10-12 might be too short. But I also wouldn’t want to see 6 nothing filler episodes because they want to make all 24 episodes when they could accomplish it in 18.

 

Deep down the both of you know it should be 13 episodes each season.

[ArrylT]

6 hours ago, LordyLord said:

I think this Review below succintly explains the issue with the episode and to an extent the whole series.

 

Its a very objective critique

 

 

I appreciate you sharing that video.   

 

IMHO, that is a perfect example of what the show needs in term of critical feedback.   Not only did she explain what she did not like, but gave examples why it did not work for her, and ideas she has for what could have improved it for her.   It simply wasnt saying "I hate everything and it all sucks".  ?  I really felt her video was worth watching and was indeed an honest & objective look at the show.

 

I think a flaw about the Whitecloaks in the show is that I feel that they did not stress enough that while they are aware of the 3 Oaths, the CofL do not truly believe those oaths and/or are very well aware how adept the AS can work around them.   

 

In the bonus content they mention that they believe anyone who can channel serves the Shadow - which can be suggestive that they therefore believe they are liars - but it is not concrete.   Maybe they'll add something eventually that shows that they do not believe Aes Sedai oaths at all.

 

 So therefore for example I felt Eamon Valda was being sarcastic in that snippet she shares in the video around 16:45.

 

"There we proved it then, because we know Aes Sedai certainly cannot lie".   I think that many might interpret it as him being honest - but I took it in that he was saying the exact opposite.  It was sarcasm from my pov.  Basically I guess it could be said that he believes that the Aes Sedai use "alternative facts".

 

This in turn would therefore explain why he felt no need to ask Moiraine the obvious q.  Because IF he believes in the oaths, and she said No ... But because he does not believe in the oaths he therefore doesnt believe the answer would be Yes, so it is moot.

Edited December 6, 2021 by ArrylT

[notpropaganda73]

That review actually captures something I was trying to get across in my post about this episode really well, and there is a comment from someone that highlights the same thing: "Your point about how we spend so much time building characters that are then removed, and so little time building our main characters is really insightful."

 

I have quite enjoyed the show so far as a whole but this latest episode really highlighted that point to me. 

[Beidomon]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:51 PM, Ralph said:

I assumed [Rand's recognizing DM was] supposed to be memory of prior life seeping through. Not seeing it but creating it

 

LTT's "memory" of creating DM would basically be "gah I'm dead!" He wouldn't have "seen" DM from a distance such that this image could be transferred forward. And of course Rand was way too young to have any memories of DM himself. Maybe Tam brought home a postcard from the war? That, or we're down to dreams and visions and such. Could also just be more sloppy writing that they don't care to clean up, but that would real sloppy.

[CaddySedai]

Rand "seeing" Dragonmount again.

 

Or it may be a vague memory from when hes being brought past it as a baby?

[Beidomon]

7 hours ago, LordyLord said:

I think this Review below succintly explains the issue with the episode and to an extent the whole series.

 

Its a very objective critique

 

Woah. Look, there are some things here that I personally find too nitpicky, but pretty much every bit of this critique is justified. She hits on two major shortcomings: the physical production, and the writing.
 

I don’t know how much can honestly be done about the writing - I suspect that may be a lost cause - but I dearly wish Rafe would get every member of the production team together and make them watch at least the first ten minutes of this video. Maybe it’s the lighting, maybe it’s the focus, or the aperture, or the lack of dirt, or not enough extras, but they have somehow got to make the show look more real.

[Beidomon]

5 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Rand "seeing" Dragonmount again.

 

Or it may be a vague memory from when hes being brought past it as a baby?

 

[envision Mat’s “that’s not how roads work” voice] That’s not how infant memories work.

[CaddySedai]

8 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

[envision Mat’s “that’s not how roads work” voice] That’s not how infant memories work.

 

That's not how storytelling works. 

 

Mat also remembers battlecries in a dead language - that hes never lived - or known - or even been part of in even a "past life"

 

I'm not implying its a GOOD excuse. 

 

Just that it at least lets them not tread over the Lewis Therin Skybolt lol.

[Bruan]

8 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

[envision Mat’s “that’s not how roads work” voice] That’s not how infant memories work.

I saw this more of a case of déjà vu than a ‘hey, I remember this place’. It could easily be explained by a vague infant memory. I mean, I have feeling of what the hospital I was born in was like, even though it was closed shortly after I was born. Not a solid memory, more of a feeling or sense of what it was like.

[TheDreadReader]

10 minutes ago, Bruan said:

I saw this more of a case of déjà vu than a ‘hey, I remember this place’. It could easily be explained by a vague infant memory. I mean, I have feeling of what the hospital I was born in was like, even though it was closed shortly after I was born. Not a solid memory, more of a feeling or sense of what it was like.

 

That's how I took it.   A deja vu feeling.

 

It is basically just foreshadowing and a nod to readers and viewers who have watched the bonus content.

 

 

[Deviations]

They should cast Books with Bianca as Aviendha.  Maybe a little meaner version but that's the look I had in my mind.  Sorry for the thread diversion.

[WhiteVeils]

6 hours ago, mogi68 said:

The show is (in my humble opinion) falling short for a few main characters in terms of characterization.

 

By not getting as far in character development for characters who got a lot in book 1, they allow that character development to continue across season 2, and also save some for when it's more appropriate.  Like, they get to stretch Perrin's across Season 1 and 2.  Rand thinking about the Aiel and whether he really is Aiel or Two Rivers is a good conflict to go through when he first actually meets some...at least in terms of being able to be dramatized. You can't show him angsting about those things much in a way that's relevant to the plot here, but once they are in the waste and he's trying to figure out how to act, it can be very obvious.
Just a possible explanation why.

[Kudzu]

I find it amusing that in an adaptation of "The Wheel of Time" we have a number of people complaining the writers are taking time away from the main protagonists to focus on pointless side-characters and sub-plots.

[RhienneAgain]

7 hours ago, mogi68 said:

Hitting plot points is the most basic criteria for an adaptation. There is also such a thing as tone, characterization, and aesthetic.

 

The show is (in my humble opinion) falling short for a few main characters in terms of characterization.

1. Rand is missing the primary internal conflict he had in the novel (the question of Tam, and who he really is). I realize that we will see the Blood Snow flashback, but that doesn't change the fact that he verbally pines for Egwene in near every scene, which is a far cry from his character in the books. Even when he picks up The Travels of Jain Farstrider, he thinks of her instead of his father (which he does in the Queen's Blessing in TEOTW).

2. Perrin's development has been arrested on account of Laila's death. After Winternight, he has yet to do violence to anyone, kill a man, or even pick up a weapon. Young Bull has not yet been born.

3. Egwene has not discarded Two Rivers tradition - it has been done for her.

4. Nynaeve does not have an adversarial relationship with Moiraine.

5. Lan has not developed a relationship with Rand.

 

I know that some of these things may come later, but timing is important. The development of these characters influences the way that they move through the world, react to events, and so on. There are some missing threads in the pattern is all.

 

disclaimer: I not want the show to fail by any means or am bashing it. I want it to succeed and for everyone to have a good time watching it. There were parts of the first few episodes I really enjoyed

Couldn't agree more. I worry it's because the characters don't need developing that the writers are so happy to axe important scenes that drive their development. Egwene has apparently been unbreakable since she was a girl so I guess we can ditch any scene or plot that develops her strength. Nynaeve is already soft and at peace with herself so I guess we don't need anything that shows her finding her place in the world and developing ways to deal with her insecurities without delivering a tongue lashing. Lan is already open, emotional, and sensitive, so why bother showing Nynaeve and Rand gradually developing a bond with him? It's nothing special in the series because Lan has no issues forming emotional attachments with everyone!

[RhienneAgain]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Which is great as your opinion, but it's also over the top and ignores what's actually there.  No sense in debating again, it's been debated elsewhere.  Characters aren't actually changed, core plot isn't actually changed.

For what it's worth, RJ2 said the first book is the one with the most changes because it's the most unlike the rest of the series and wanders in weird ways compared to the rest of the narrative.

Really interested in your opinion that characters haven't been changed. You don't feel than Lan, Nynaeve, and Mat have changed..?