tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Weird_Old_Lady]

23 hours ago, Harad the White said:

The one hour anniversary of the question. Anyone have a comment on the "I'll do you or you do me," convo?

I can't imagine a scene referencing this conversation that won't make me cry. 

 

Poor kids. I love them so hard and just want them to be safe?

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

I can't imagine a scene referencing this conversation that won't make me cry. 

 

Poor kids. I love them so hard and just want them to be safe?

It is sad, Weird. They're just misunderstood and misunderstanding, due to misinformation.

[Bruan]

1 hour ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

Listen, I get it and I don’t think we’ll end up agreeing on this one (which is fine)

 

I really had to psyche myself up/come to terms with what a tv adaptation would mean for the book series I love.

It was, honestly, Y: The Last Man that was super helpful in altering my expectations.

 

but we differ on what we see as important character traits and that’s, obviously, a big deal. If the characters seemed WAY out of character to me I’d be pissed too. I just happen to think, for the most part, they’re represented on screen.

yes, I think we do. I See EotW as important to show where the character’s come from and the extreme situations they find themselves in as important for developing the characters as they become... In the show they jump pretty quickly into more of what the characters will be in a book or two. The Rand/Matt journey in the books to me had more of a flavour of “Well, we’re in it now, but we’ll make it through if we stick together” and some elements of “He’s not heavy, He’s my Brother”. But what I seen in the show is “But I need to find egwene, who already tossed me to the curb in the first ten minutes of the show” and “screw egwene and screw you. I’m going to loot some corpses and buy a ticket back home”.

 

whatever happened to a season of TV having twenty some odd episodes to tell a story? I think I might have to partially blame the modern ‘let’s spend a night binging on garbage’ instant gratification culture as well as the show producers for my disappointments...

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

3 minutes ago, Bruan said:

whatever happened to a season of TV having twenty some odd episodes to tell a story? I think I might have to partially blame the modern ‘let’s spend a night binging on garbage’ instant gratification culture as well as the show producers for my disappointments...

I think 10-12 episodes (knowing what we know now) “feels” like the right number to tell EotW in. EotW/Wheel of Time isn’t a “monster of the week” show. So, 20 episodes would be pushing it. Look at a show like Lost (forget the controversial ending)  it had quite a few “filler” episodes.
 

I’m hopeful later seasons will get this episode count. It really allows us to breathe with the characters. 
 

my one major complaint with the show (which has improved some since the first two episodes) is the pacing and not taking a moment to allow some additional character beats.

 

it’s season 1, though, and it’ll take time for the writers room to hit their stride. 

[Bruan]

58 minutes ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

I think 10-12 episodes (knowing what we know now) “feels” like the right number to tell EotW in. EotW/Wheel of Time isn’t a “monster of the week” show. So, 20 episodes would be pushing it. Look at a show like Lost (forget the controversial ending)  it had quite a few “filler” episodes.
 

I’m hopeful later seasons will get this episode count. It really allows us to breathe with the characters. 
 

my one major complaint with the show (which has improved some since the first two episodes) is the pacing and not taking a moment to allow some additional character beats.

 

it’s season 1, though, and it’ll take time for the writers room to hit their stride. 

 

on the contrary. A longer, traditional TV season would allow the pace to slow down. Allow for some of the character development I feel is lacking to take place. But it’s less ‘bing worthy’ and some episodes will be quite ‘boring’ to those who care more about a quick thrill ride than watching a story unfold. I understand it’s not a bad guy of the week type show, but there is enough going on in the books that I’m sure every episode can have its own mini arc and climatic event while carrying the overarching story of the book (or books) the season covers. Maybe not a full 20+ episodes... but we need more than eight to do justice to try source material.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Bruan

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

2 minutes ago, Bruan said:

 

on the contrary. A longer, traditional TV season would allow the pace to slow down. Allow for some of the character development I feel is lacking to take place. But it’s less ‘bing worthy’ and some episodes will be quite ‘boring’ to those who care more about a quick thrill ride than watching a story unfold. I understand it’s not a bad guy of the week type show, but there is enough going on in the books that I’m sure every episode can have its own mini arc and climatic event while carrying the overarching story of the book (or books) the season covers. Maybe not a full 20+ episodes... but we need more than eight to do justice to try source material.

You say “on the contrary” but I’m pretty sure your statement is in agreement with mine.

 

I think 10-12 “feels” right but we both acknowledge they need more than 8 but less than 20.

 

The number of episodes doesn’t really matter to me. Only that they’re telling the story well. If they could do that in 5 episodes for the season I’d be ok with it (they obviously can’t, just an example). I’d prefer to have a shorter season and we’ll told story than more episodes but dragging story.

 

In this case, feels like they definitely need more than 8 eps to make certain beats truly robust.

[Bruan]

1 hour ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

You say “on the contrary” but I’m pretty sure your statement is in agreement with mine.

 

I think 10-12 “feels” right but we both acknowledge they need more than 8 but less than 20.

 

The number of episodes doesn’t really matter to me. Only that they’re telling the story well. If they could do that in 5 episodes for the season I’d be ok with it (they obviously can’t, just an example). I’d prefer to have a shorter season and we’ll told story than more episodes but dragging story.

 

In this case, feels like they definitely need more than 8 eps to make certain beats truly robust.

I think we partially agree. I still think 10-12 might be too short. But I also wouldn’t want to see 6 nothing filler episodes because they want to make all 24 episodes when they could accomplish it in 18.

[ArrylT]

5 hours ago, Bruan said:

Like I said, I’m working off memory, not a fresh re-read. But charging into trollocs is both terrifying and brave. And I really don’t recall them acting as cowardly as they are portrayed in the show so far. Sure, they were scared, alone and out off their element, but they managed to do what they needed without blind panic.

 

but, my arguments on the changes of the characters still stand, at least as we see so far. They cut out much of the initial character development (and for what? A full half episode of material about the warded bond that wasn’t even in the book and  that could have been covered in a three minute scene?). I’m not sure I like what they’re doing to my story yet.

 

My only comment on that is Winternight Ep1 showcases bravery for both imo. 

 

Rand had opportunities to run & was told to do so by Tam - and he first took that advice in the book

 

Spoiler

“Run, lad! Hide in the woods!” The bodies in the doorway jerked as others outside tried to pull them clear. Tam thrust a shoulder under the massive table; with a grunt he heaved it over atop the tangle. “There are too many to hold! Out the back! Go! Go! I'll follow!”

Even as Rand turned away, shame filled him that he obeyed so quickly. He wanted to stay and help his father, though he could not imagine how, but fear had him by the throat, and his legs moved on their own. He dashed from the room, toward the back of the house, as fast as he had ever run in his life. Crashes and shouts from the front door pursued him.

 

But in the show he stays and defends his father and ends up killing the Trolloc. 

 

Spoiler

Which ironically has had other people upset because it made Tam look weaker to them

 

 

Mat going back out into the Trolloc attack to find his sisters instead of the (relative) safety with his parents.  No idea what he did in the books because it is not discussed to the best of my knowledge. 

 

However in the books Mat drags Perrin & Rand with him on his Shadar Logoth treasure hunt and immediately followed Mordeth (so Perrin & Rand felt obligated to follow).  At least in the show Mat (and we get the hint Padan Fain was involved) did this on his own, and we have a better sense of his motivation (due to background in show vs book). 

 

Maybe it would have been nice if they had fought some Trollocs off before entering SL but they had been ordered basically by Lan to go to SL immediately - and I think ignoring that would have been foolish and made Lan look worse (since he couldnt even command sheepherders) to some.  

 

In the end it all comes down to perspective, interpretation and memory - but I truly think both Rand & Mat in the show are being portrayed fairly (and Perrin is more of an improvement).   

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Why does he take Olver on rather than turn him over to someone else?

Now that you mention Olver series Mat appears to be much more likely to take on an orphan girl than an orphan boy due to the concern for his (much younger than book) sisters and the Grindwell girl killed by the fade (probably).

[Jaysen Gore]

19 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Now that you mention Olver series Mat appears to be much more likely to take on an orphan girl than an orphan boy due to the concern for his (much younger than book) sisters and the Grindwell girl killed by the fade (probably).

Spoiler

Heh - given Mat's beliefs regarding the Power, his relationship with Tuon, and his desire to protect little girls, I can see this becoming Alivia.

Think you're right, but it's easier to go further - spoiled for book speculation ?

[Bruan]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

My only comment on that is Winternight Ep1 showcases bravery for both imo. 

 

Rand had opportunities to run & was told to do so by Tam - and he first took that advice in the book

 

  Hide contents

“Run, lad! Hide in the woods!” The bodies in the doorway jerked as others outside tried to pull them clear. Tam thrust a shoulder under the massive table; with a grunt he heaved it over atop the tangle. “There are too many to hold! Out the back! Go! Go! I'll follow!”

Even as Rand turned away, shame filled him that he obeyed so quickly. He wanted to stay and help his father, though he could not imagine how, but fear had him by the throat, and his legs moved on their own. He dashed from the room, toward the back of the house, as fast as he had ever run in his life. Crashes and shouts from the front door pursued him.

 

But in the show he stays and defends his father and ends up killing the Trolloc. 

 

  Hide contents

Which ironically has had other people upset because it made Tam look weaker to them

 

 

Mat going back out into the Trolloc attack to find his sisters instead of the (relative) safety with his parents.  No idea what he did in the books because it is not discussed to the best of my knowledge. 

 

However in the books Mat drags Perrin & Rand with him on his Shadar Logoth treasure hunt and immediately followed Mordeth (so Perrin & Rand felt obligated to follow).  At least in the show Mat (and we get the hint Padan Fain was involved) did this on his own, and we have a better sense of his motivation (due to background in show vs book). 

 

Maybe it would have been nice if they had fought some Trollocs off before entering SL but they had been ordered basically by Lan to go to SL immediately - and I think ignoring that would have been foolish and made Lan look worse (since he couldnt even command sheepherders) to some.  

 

In the end it all comes down to perspective, interpretation and memory - but I truly think both Rand & Mat in the show are being portrayed fairly (and Perrin is more of an improvement).   

 

yes... though the attack on the Al’Thor farm was way cut down in the show, and we lost a lot of character development for Rand as a result. As for the town, we don’t know much of what happened, but we do know after the initial shock (and under Lan and Moraine’s leadership) they pulled together to fend them off. I think if they dedicate at least two episodes to winter night and the trip to the ferry it would have been screen time well spent (as opposed to a whole episode about a character we don’t care about committing seppuku because another character we don’t care about died and it’s a better alternative to a weird bisexual orgy).

 

But again, we need more episodes. Modern quick thrill bing watch in a single night streaming seasons (combined with show writers that think they need to change core concepts of a literary masterpiece to conform to modern sensibilities to ‘make it better’) are destroying Robert Jordan’s works. At this point, I’m not even sure they can salvage what is left of the story over the long term. The core character’s are drastically changed at only the fledgling levels of their character arcs, so much core material was cut out for no other reason than to replace it with the show writers made up material... 

 

I signed up for Amazon prime for no other reason than to watch this show. If they don’t pull a miracle out of their backsides in three episodes, I see myself canceling it and not signing up again for season 2. I’m honestly not seeing the story I spent a few decades of my life on being represented with the respect it deserves at this point.

 

i will add, the parts of the series so far that I’ve enjoyed the most are the parts that are closest to the story as written... Odd... It’s almost as if Robert Jordan was a good writer and story teller and doesn’t need improvement to make his work ‘better’.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Bruan

[grayavatar]

On 12/5/2021 at 2:53 PM, AusLeviathan said:

I just want Rand the main character from the books but I can't have him because he's a man and men are bad so he must be put out of focus.

 

I just want Egwene from the books but I can't have her because she's a woman and must immediately shown to be unbreakable and strong from the beginning without her journey and she must also not be allowed to have the personality traits that made her interesting.

 

I just want Lan from the books but I can't have him because he's a strong man and strong men are toxic and must instead be portrayed as incompetent emotional cry babies.

 

I just want the Warders from the books but I can't have them because men who are badass warriors are wrong and need to instead be sensitive, useless and apparently there more to provide sex for Aes Sedai than to actually do their jobs.

 

I just want the story from the books but the story prophesied a male chosen one in a world where women held the power and that doesn't fit the message of men are bad and women are good so we must change the story because even in a universe where men who gain that universe's magic power are destined to go insane we still can't actually give men anything and we must make it clear that the chosen one can be a woman (regardless of how little narrative sense that makes).

 

I just want something, anything that actually fits the book and hasn't been corrupted to the point of being unrecognizable and losing everything that made it good in the books.

 

100% agree. The characters don't actually seem to have any character and little personality that is fitting to how the story should be.

Instead of the wheeloftime story we get a rewrite that has names/places/factions from the books. It all feels like fan fiction to me.

It's a real shame because I knew that no WoT show would be 100% as in the books but I never thought it would be this bad. It exceeds the worst of my expectations.

[Yojimbo]

Just a few quick thoughts now that I've finally been able to watch this episode (real life got in the way).

 

There were a few good moments, like seeing Dragonmount and the scene with Logain.   But for me, not much else.  A lot of observations from my wife too.   She is as underwhelmed as I am, and I think would not be watching if I weren't.   I plan to try and get through the season, but it's really hard.  

 

 - The burial scene.  WTF?  My wife (a non reader of the books)  was like "why are they being buried right at the surface?  Are they at least going to build a large burial mound over them or something like in  Ireland?  Don't they know there are things like wolves and other animals who will make a meal of them?"

 - All the time spent on Stepin.    Seemed an awful waste of time when it could have been done much quicker and used that time on other stuff, like, oh, Rand and Matt, or Rand and Loial.   Lan's reaction at the end was almost comically bad.  My wife asked "isn't this guy like some legendary warrior king or something?   Shouldn't he be a little more used to his friends dying in a war he has supposedly been fighting for most of his life?"

 - I have a terrible feeling Valda is going to have the Fox medallion and we may never meet the Aelfin and Elfin.  Mat will just steal it from him sometime.   Why not.  They seem to change everything else. 

  - "Puppies!" - said my wife when the "wolves" were shown.   

"Oh look, Minas Tirith!" she said as soon as Tar Valon came on screen.   Also, we both cringed when they melted the ring.   Way too reminiscent of LOTR. 

 - "why didn't Egwene just use the power to free herself and Perrin the second Valda left the tent?" she also asked.  

 - Loial.   Meh.   The actor did his best, but he looked strange (I found the hair really distracting), nd I missed him constantly apologizing for reminding Rand how short human lives were.  Also his 6 inch lifts made my wife mention Herman Munster.     Cannot believe they couldn't have used forced perspective to make him seem at least a little taller than Rand.  

- The breakbone fever story.  My wife intuited that this was when Nyn first unknowingly used the source to save someone, and was surprised they used that story to say how strong Egwene was instead. 

 - The Moraine and Alanna slumber party.   My wife actually wondered if they were girlfriends.  Seemed very odd for two Aes Sedai to be lying around on a bed like that, as if they were 12 year old girls hanging out after school.  

 - Rand has been traveling rough for a month now (which came as a surprise to my wife, who said they didn't do enough to tell you how much time has been passing - she said it felt like no more than a week) and yet his clothes look freshly laundered.   This is a recurring problem. Things look too clean and new.  Not lived in enough.

 - Possibly only 8 Forsaken?  I am beginning to believe Aginor and Balthamel will not show up at the Eye at all.  Probably no Someshta either.   

 

 

[Bruan]

I realize I stray a little far from episode 5... so in this particular episode I’ll list the things I don’t like specifically.

 

-the whole warded seppuku story arc... It’s not needed at this point in the story. I get that it builds up the greater world building... But if they just tell the story as written and stay consistent, the world will build around it. It also portrays Lan as a completely different character than that presented in the book. We’re talking about a guy who lives and believes such things as “The most important rule of being a man, whatever happens, face it on your feet” (paraphrased a little, I don’t have the book I front of me to make the exact quote). I’ve always seen Lan as more like Worf from Star Trek (without the Klingon bloodlust perhaps) than a blubbering crybaby. Even if it was a ceremony, Lan from the books would likely decline and be one of the ones stoically thumping his chest.

 

-whitecloaks... forget that they’re near TV. That can be written off easily enough. But their whole reason for arresting them was “I have seen you twice”... No. questioners are sadistic bastards, but they still answer to the lord captains and they still need actual justification for their nefarious deeds... Which was what the book provided in the real arrest where Perrin lost his cool after a wolf died I. The original conflict and actually killed a whitecloak... and along those lines, the escape. Book Perrin would have taken on the questioner after being freed from his bonds. Instead, we have egwene magically apprearing out of nowhere to save the day (when book egwene at this phase would have likely been petrified). Basically, we’re taking Perrin character development and giving it to egwene... I hate to call it culture war nonsense. But why else would they do that?

 

-Loial I actually liked... Other than Rand’s reaction to being called Aiel... but we stole his development arc already, along with making the two rivers (a fairly backwoods ethnically homogeneous place) more multi-cultural than the diversity capitol of the Robert Jordan world, Tar Valon (I didn’t see much diversity in that city myself. I might have missed it). Rand should have been remembering Tam’s fever ramblings and thinking hard about the fact they might be true and he isn’t from the two rivers, or even Tam’s son. Instead he casually picks up a book and the subject changes.

 

I’m sure there is more, but to me, this episode is the worst one so far, and already over halfway through. It’s becoming clearer by the episode that they aren’t adapting Robert Jordan’s work to the screen, but re-writing the books to tell their own story with the weight of the title behind it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Bruan

[grayavatar]

22 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

@AusLeviathan, honestly man, you're gonna have to find a way to let this go. If you believe me on anything, then believe me when I say that I loathe this adaptation far more than you. This forum has a general pro-show lean but if you think that your voiced disappointment is going to steer the ship around or change the hearts/minds here, then I have to say you're in for more of that disappointment.

 

For now, we can fall back to enjoying the source and do our best to either A) ignore the show and pretend it doesn't exist or B) continue to delve forward with the knowledge that it's something completely different.

 

Ya gotta find a way to come to terms, otherwise it's going to eat away at you and make you even more bitter.

 

I'm with @AusLeviathan

 

I feel many of us including myself were desperate for this show to be good because we love WoT so much.

I don't know if this site has any cross promotion / financial ties with the show but there is definitely a lean towards supporting the show no matter what. "Anything can be forgiven" seems to be the general attitude.

 

We all want the show to be good and it could have been much much better but many of you are sitting here polishing a turd while the rest of us are backing away and saying "that is shit!"

 

If there is snot hanging out your nose I am going to tell you ASAP so you don't keep walking around all day with snot on your face.

[Bruan]

1 minute ago, grayavatar said:

 

I'm with @AusLeviathan

 

I feel many of us including myself were desperate for this show to be good because we love WoT so much.

I don't know if this site has any cross promotion / financial ties with the show but there is definitely a lean towards supporting the show no matter what. "Anything can be forgiven" seems to be the general attitude.

 

We all want the show to be good and it could have been much much better but many of you are sitting here polishing a turd while the rest of us are backing away and saying "that is shit!"

 

If there is snot hanging out your nose I am going to tell you ASAP so you don't keep walking around all day with snot on your face.

I really wanted this show to be the epic fantasy of all time suitable to the books that created the concept. I’ll watch the season out, but the way it’s going, I doubt I’ll be around for season 2. They simply removed so much stuff, and not for time, but because they wanted to re-write it in their own image. 
 

Weep for the Wheel of Time.

Weep for the blood, sweat and tears of Robert Jordan.

 

[Kudzu]

2 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Weep for the Wheel of Time.

Weep for the blood, sweat and tears of Robert Jordan.

 

I mean, Jordan's books are still there, and still the same as when he wrote them. I believe I heard they are also selling like hot cakes thanks to series.

[grayavatar]

17 hours ago, fra85uk said:

I agree with both, just suggesting a way to be less angry.

Why not be angry? We should all be angry. This is the one shot at a show we have been waiting for 2 decades and instead we get something so very dumb and bland. This could have been epic even with limited resources.

[Bruan]

1 minute ago, Kudzu said:

 

I mean, Jordan's books are still there, and still the same as when he wrote them. I believe I heard they are also selling like hot cakes thanks to series.

they were doing pretty good before the series too... And it doesn’t change the fact that they are tearing his work to pieces to re-write it ‘better’. Like I have said before, I understand how they might need to compress things for the episodic TV format. But that excuse kind of goes out the window when they replace what they’ve cut out with huge chunks of made up material that does little to progress the story of the main characters. And yes, I still have all my first edition hard covers as well as the toss around paperbacks. Thank god, because I now need to read them again to wash the taint out of this ‘adaptation’.

[Terry05]

1 hour ago, grayavatar said:

Why not be angry? We should all be angry. This is the one shot at a show we have been waiting for 2 decades and instead we get something so very dumb and bland. This could have been epic even with limited resources.

It's a shame some people feel this way - honestly bummed for you guys that you can't enjoy it. I've accepted it's and adaption and am enjoying every minute of it. Maybe you'll think different of it when all 8 episodes are out and can be watched in one go?

[Bruan]

9 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

It's a shame some people feel this way - honestly bummed for you guys that you can't enjoy it. I've accepted it's and adaption and am enjoying every minute of it. Maybe you'll think different of it when all 8 episodes are out and can be watched in one go?

I can’t honestly say it’s and adaptation. It is more of a re-write. Rather than doing the best they can to recreate Jordan’s work in film, it feels to me more like “Hi, I’m Rafe, I’ll be your DM. Let’s all roll up a character loosely based on your favorite wheel of time character and we’ll play a campaign I thought up based on the novels.”

[Terry05]

1 minute ago, Bruan said:

I can’t honestly say it’s and adaptation. It is more of a re-write. Rather than doing the best they can to recreate Jordan’s work in film, it feels to me more like “Hi, I’m Rafe, I’ll be your DM. Let’s all roll up a character loosely based on your favorite wheel of time character and we’ll play a campaign I thought up based on the novels.”

Agree to disagree I guess 

[DaddyFinn]

I like to think this show as a "same destination, somewhat different route". I just came up with this visualization.

 

Imagine the aerial view of an American city which has evenly square and straight blocks.

 

The books go on a straight line for miles to their destination. Only stopping at traffic lights and jams.

 

The show has the same destination, but does not go in a straight line all the time. It goes around some blocks and sometimes does a larger detour. Sometimes it follows the book path for several blocks. It criss-crosses on both sides of the straight line. It stops at most of the same traffic lights. Sometimes the traffic lights are green several times in a row and we can just keep driving.

 

Eventually we get to our destination and can say: "Well, it was different this time but here we are. We got to see new places and experience new traffic lights."

 

I wish I had the patience to draw this on a map. This metaphor is not perfect, I know.

[Bruan]

21 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I like to think this show as a "same destination, somewhat different route". I just came up with this visualization.

 

Imagine the aerial view of an American city which has evenly square and straight blocks.

 

The books go on a straight line for miles to their destination. Only stopping at traffic lights and jams.

 

The show has the same destination, but does not go in a straight line all the time. It goes around some blocks and sometimes does a larger detour. Sometimes it follows the book path for several blocks. It criss-crosses on both sides of the straight line. It stops at most of the same traffic lights. Sometimes the traffic lights are green several times in a row and we can just keep driving.

 

Eventually we get to our destination and can say: "Well, it was different this time but here we are. We got to see new places and experience new traffic lights."

 

I wish I had the patience to draw this on a map. This metaphor is not perfect, I know.

No, your metaphor is quite good. It also highlights the problems I’m having with the show. You see, the story isn’t the destination. The story is the path taken to the destination. You change that path, you change the story. We could both start out in a suburb and walk to city hall. I choose to go through the industrial park and the ghetto. You choose to walk through the green spaces and China town. It doesn’t really matter that we both end up at city hall, we’ll each be telling our own and very different story about the trip.

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Bruan said:

No, your metaphor is quite good. It also highlights the problems I’m having with the show. You see, the story isn’t the destination. The story is the path taken to the destination. You change that path, you change the story. We could both start out in a suburb and walk to city hall. I choose to go through the industrial park and the ghetto. You choose to walk through the green spaces and China town. It doesn’t really matter that we both end up at city hall, we’ll each be telling our own and very different story about the trip.

That's why I tried to imply the story still follows a good portion of the same path