tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Why would I do that? I posted the link and you ignored it and called me a liar, what incentive do I have to post it again. If you want to listen the interview all you need to do is go into my post history and find where I mentioned Laila. It wasn't that long ago, should be on the second page by now probably.

Case closed. 

1. "I posted the link." Prove by telling me where or re-posting it.

2. "You ignored it." Not true. I never saw it or knew of it.

3. "Called me a liar." Not true.

4. "What incentive do I have." To prove me wrong and show everyone wot a great guy you are.

 

Easy peasy. When you do it we don't have to go through the charade: "Oh that's not it." Or "Oh it disappeared."

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

@AusLeviathan, honestly man, you're gonna have to find a way to let this go. If you believe me on anything, then believe me when I say that I loathe this adaptation far more than you. This forum has a general pro-show lean but if you think that your voiced disappointment is going to steer the ship around or change the hearts/minds here, then I have to say you're in for more of that disappointment.

 

For now, we can fall back to enjoying the source and do our best to either A) ignore the show and pretend it doesn't exist or B) continue to delve forward with the knowledge that it's something completely different.

 

Ya gotta find a way to come to terms, otherwise it's going to eat away at you and make you even more bitter.

 

I think these videos could give you and others comfort. I've not watched them myself but skimmed a few parts and they contain pretty much the same complaints written in here.

 

 

 

[Harad the White]

Regarding Kerene's horse's stirrups as they travel to TV:

https://theskeletonkeychronicles.com/2021/05/18/the-riderless-horse/

sez,

"So what is the root of this tradition? After looking into this custom it is believed to date back to the time of Genghis Khan, when a riderless horse was led to the burial site of his rider and sacrificed alongside his deceased equestrian. Presumably the reasoning behind killing the horse was to carry the fallen warrior into the next world. Sometimes, the horse was not only killed but also consumed graveside by mourners. After the feast, what was left of the remains of the equine were buried with the owner. This practice of horse sacrificing so the animal may accompany their owners into the afterlife continued well on into the 14th century."

 

Was wondering about the adoption of this tradition with the AS. Assuming it wasn't in the Book.

[AusLeviathan]

39 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

A) ignore the show and pretend it doesn't exist

I've wasted too much time on this show and watching the Dune adaptation has shown me just how bad we have it here so I believe I will be taking this route now.

 

38 minutes ago, melsnitker said:

It may be unintentional, but you appear to be suggesting that strength and emotionality are incompatible qualities.

No, I'm saying an experienced soldier like Lan turning into an emotional cry baby because a fellow solider died is unrealistic and a sign of how little the writers understand real soldiers. Lan and his fellow warders are used to death in this world, the idea that one of them dying when the job carries the expectation of it happening and that it would immediately affect them like this makes no sense.

 

There's a difference in being able to show emotion in a way that fits the character and making the character so emotional that it's laughable. They've gone far to far with Lan.

 

37 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

"I posted the link." Prove by telling me where or re-posting it.

I've told you where it's posted, in my post history in one of the posts where I was talking about Rafe and the Laila as a Darkfriend theory which should be on the second page of my posts. I'm not going to post it again just because you refuse to actually read what I'm writing and refused to accept it the first time it was posted. If you want to hear the interview then all you have to do is go into my post history and look.

 

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I think these videos could give you and others comfort. I've not watched them myself but skimmed a few parts and they contain pretty much the same complaints written in here.

Shad's a good guy, didn't realize he had a video talking about the last episode out, should be a good watch. He seems to be one of the only Youtuber's talking about this show who's not afraid to talk about all the issues with the show.

 

Daniel Greene seemed like he was starting to speak his mind recently and talk about the show's issues but in his latest video he actually apologized because people were accusing him of being too critical and he was someone who's been very supported of the show. I guess that gives a good insight into how little criticism much of the fan base is willing to accept for this show.

 

In any case this is going to be my last post. 12 years as a fan of WOT, I got the first two books as a present and got through all 11 books at the time plus the prequel in under 3 weeks. I've never had that sort of love for a series before.

 

Unfortunately this show is nothing like those books I loved so much and I have no interest in it. I will go back to my yearly reread of the books and appreciate them for how good they are. Hopefully I'll be back in 20 or so years when someone who does actually love the books and doesn't feel the need to remove everything great about them decides to adapt the books.

Edited December 5, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

I'm not going to post it again just because you refuse to actually read what I'm writing and refused to accept it the first time it was posted. If you want to hear the interview then all you have to is go into my post history and look.

Thanks for admitting it doesn't exist. My last post shows a source with its link, demonstrating how easy it is to do what you refuse. Still we have to admire his "principles," not copying and pasting a simple link, and willing to accept the obvious implication.

[KakitaOCU]

15 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

No, I'm saying an experienced soldier like Lan turning into an emotional cry baby because a fellow solider died is unrealistic and a sign of how little the writers understand real soldiers. Lan and his fellow warders are used to death in this world, the idea that one of them dying when the job carries the expectation of it happening and that it would immediately affect them like this makes no sense.

 

There's a difference in being able to show emotion in a way that fits the character and making the character so emotional that it's laughable. They've gone far to far with Lan.

Ah, the "Real soldiers don't..."  nonsense.

As someone who serves the military, knows a lot of soldiers and has watched what they go through and worked with them.  You're full of it.  Yes, some are stoic and blank, others aren't.  And if you think Lan showing emotion in a specific instance as part of a ritual is too far, I have to come to the conclusion that you don't have any experience with real soldiers.

[Harad the White]

How much time in Eps5 was spent on Stepin? Some have said most. The numbers are as follows:

 

First funeral: 2:39 min/sec

Trail: 1:00

Melting Ring: 8:54

Stepin-Nynaeve: 1:37

Stepin-Lan: 1.:52

2nd funeral: 6:23

 

The sum is 22.5 min.  The total time in the episode minus recap and credits is 57.2 min. The fraction is 40%. This is large, but not most. If it takes 40% of an episode to viscerally establish the AS-Warder bond, so be it.

[Terry05]

6 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

I just want Rand the main character from the books but I can't have him because he's a man and men are bad so he must be put out of focus.

 

I just want Egwene from the books but I can't have her because she's a woman and must immediately shown to be unbreakable and strong from the beginning without her journey and she must also not be allowed to have the personality traits that made her interesting.

 

I just want Lan from the books but I can't have him because he's a strong man and strong men are toxic and must instead be portrayed as incompetent emotional cry babies.

 

I just want the Warders from the books but I can't have them because men who are badass warriors are wrong and need to instead be sensitive, useless and apparently there more to provide sex for Aes Sedai than to actually do their jobs.

 

I just want the story from the books but the story prophesied a male chosen one in a world where women held the power and that doesn't fit the message of men are bad and women are good so we must change the story because even in a universe where men who gain that universe's magic power are destined to go insane we still can't actually give men anything and we must make it clear that the chosen one can be a woman (regardless of how little narrative sense that makes).

 

I just want something, anything that actually fits the book and hasn't been corrupted to the point of being unrecognizable and losing everything that made it good in the books.

LOL

[Terry05]

3 hours ago, melsnitker said:

 

 

I find your repeated use of the phrase "emotional cry babies" to be troubling.

 

It may be unintentional, but you appear to be suggesting that strength and emotionality are incompatible qualities.

 

I find this implication particularly disturbing in light of the fact that it is when Rand attempts to entirely divorce himself from his emotions that he very nearly completely fails.

 

The irony... his complaining about "emotional cry babies" while being an "emotional cry baby" is *chef kiss*

[Maximillion]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

How much time in Eps5 was spent on Stepin? Some have said most. The numbers are as follows:

 

First funeral: 2:39 min/sec

Trail: 1:00

Melting Ring: 8:54

Stepin-Nynaeve: 1:37

Stepin-Lan: 1.:52

2nd funeral: 6:23

 

The sum is 22.5 min.  The total time in the episode minus recap and credits is 57.2 min. The fraction is 40%. This is large, but not most. If it takes 40% of an episode to viscerally establish the AS-Warder bond, so be it.

Way too much time and completely unnecessary. Establishing the warder  bond could have been done much quicker. In fact, the scene between Moraine and Alana was probably enough.

 

 Also it wasn’t just Steppin scenes that spent time in this. More than half the episode I would say.

 

i also think the male  concubine angle they have pushed in the show is rather unnecessary. Not entirely sure what it is adding and the are they/aren’t they nonsense between Lan and Moraine is becoming tiresome to say the least.

 

 It’s just another example of screen time that could have been spent much better elsewhere.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Maximillion

[Terry05]

39 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Way too much time and completely unnecessary. Establishing the warder  bond could have been done much quicker. In fact, the scene between Moraine and Alana was probably enough.

 

 Also it wasn’t just Steppin scenes that spent time in this. More than half the episode I would say.

 

i also think the male  concubine angle they have pushed in the show is rather unnecessary. Not entirely sure what it is adding and the are they/aren’t they nonsense between Lan and Moraine is becoming tiresome to say the least.

 

 It’s just another example of screen time that could have been spent much better elsewhere.

 

 

While I disagree with the male concubine angle - to each their own. If we all had the same opinions it would be quite boring. I do 100% agree though that too much time was given to Steppin - especially given the number of things that have been cut.

[Gothic Flame]

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Ah, the "Real soldiers don't..."  nonsense.

As someone who serves the military, knows a lot of soldiers and has watched what they go through and worked with them.  You're full of it.  Yes, some are stoic and blank, others aren't.  And if you think Lan showing emotion in a specific instance as part of a ritual is too far, I have to come to the conclusion that you don't have any experience with real soldiers.

We're not talking modern society here. We're talking about a warrior culture that refuses to put on public displays of emotion, up to and including a husband and wife holding hands when outside. As put in another way, such displays are private and for family and no one else's business. To such a culture to put on such a public show...to be judged by strangers is a mockery disgracing the dead and shaming the family.

[fra85uk]

@AusLeviathan i understand your feelings mate. Try to see if you can avoid comparison with the books and maybe you can enjoy the show for what it is.

As an adaptation, it's very, Very, VERY BAD.

But, once you use the void and the flame to not think About the books, it's a 6/10 overall and last episode is full of original content, so they did desacrate the books a little bit less. I hope that there will be even more new characters and made up content because showrunners seem to care more when it's their stuff and not RJ's.

 

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

@AusLeviathan i understand your feelings mate. Try to see if you can avoid comparison with the books and maybe you can enjoy the show for what it is.

As an adaptation, it's very, Very, VERY BAD.

But, once you use the void and the flame to not think About the books, it's a 6/10 overall and last episode is full of original content, so they did desacrate the books a little bit less. I hope that there will be even more new characters and made up content because showrunners seem to care more when it's their stuff and not RJ's.

 

1.) It's not fair to separate the source material when making judgments. After all if they weren't claiming "adaptation" then they wouldn't be trying to pull in fans of said source material to win them over to begin with.

2.) Too many that have judged the show on its own merits are already seeing a mediocre show at best.

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

In fact, the scene between Moraine and Alana was probably enough.

Stepin's arc was well received by non-book audience and even many bookfans loved it. I don't think a few sentences describing the bond would have made the same memorable impact.

[Maximillion]

13 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

We're not talking modern society here. We're talking about a warrior culture that refuses to put on public displays of emotion, up to and including a husband and wife holding hands when outside. As put in another way, such displays are private and for family and no one else's business. To such a culture to put on such a public show...to be judged by strangers is a mockery disgracing the dead and shaming the family.

 

I really find it hard to understand what they have done to Lan's character.  The show runner and his staff must have actually made a conscious decision here to make him more emotional and needy.  He's actually cuts quite a pathetic figure in the TV show, so far removed from the source material they had to work with.

 

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Stepin's arc was well received by non-book audience and even many bookfans loved it. I don't think a few sentences describing the bond would have made the same memorable impact.

 

I think you are probably right when you say it was well received - from the feedback I am seeing from various sources.  That's in isolation, though.  It made some people cry, it made some people really get the bond.  My problem is how long it took and what it replaced in the story.  I daresay that time could have been used a lot better on content that would make the story more engaging overall.

 

The more we see unfold the more it is clear that this is Rafe Judkins personal favourite parts of the story being brought to the screen. You can go back to his interviews on his favourite aspects of the book and we can now see them getting extended deep dives.  Some will think that is OK, and that is their right.  For me, I think his responsibility was broader than just pleasing himself.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Maximillion

[fra85uk]

8 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

1.) It's not fair to separate the source material when making judgments. After all if they weren't claiming "adaptation" then they wouldn't be trying to pull in fans of said source material to win them over to begin with.

2.) Too many that have judged the show on its own merits are already seeing a mediocre show at best.

I agree with both, just suggesting a way to be less angry.

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

Way too much time and completely unnecessary. Establishing the warder  bond could have been done much quicker. In fact, the scene between Moraine and Alana was probably enough.

 

 Also it wasn’t just Steppin scenes that spent time in this. More than half the episode I would say.

 

i also think the male  concubine angle they have pushed in the show is rather unnecessary. Not entirely sure what it is adding and the are they/aren’t they nonsense between Lan and Moraine is becoming tiresome to say the least.

 

 It’s just another example of screen time that could have been spent much better elsewhere.

 

 

I completely agree on the nature of the concubine element. It comes up in too many scenes, and feels very forced and uncomfortable. I don't understand what they're going for with this.

[RhienneAgain]

27 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

We're not talking modern society here. We're talking about a warrior culture that refuses to put on public displays of emotion, up to and including a husband and wife holding hands when outside. As put in another way, such displays are private and for family and no one else's business. To such a culture to put on such a public show...to be judged by strangers is a mockery disgracing the dead and shaming the family.

I really agree with this, and I think this is where the show is running into a lot of trouble. The characters should behave as befits the culture of the WoT, not our modern sensibilities. Instead it feels like the showrunners are uncomfortable including anything that doesn't fit with current beliefs and views.

[RhienneAgain]

11 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

I really find it hard to understand what they have done to Lan's character.  The show runner and his staff must have actually made a conscious decision here to make him more emotional and needy.  He's actually cuts quite a pathetic figure in the TV show, so far removed from the source material they had to work with.

 

The review of episode 5 on the main page if Dragonmount sums it up quite well, I think, from a neutral perspective. Book Lan's version of masculinity has been replaced with a more modern interpretation of masculinity. I actually feel deeply uncomfortable with this as it feels like it's censoring the types of masculinity that are acceptable and those that aren't.

[Gothic Flame]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

I really find it hard to understand what they have done to Lan's character.  The show runner and his staff must have actually made a conscious decision here to make him more emotional and needy.  He's actually cuts quite a pathetic figure in the TV show, so far removed from the source material they had to work with.

 

Looking at Lan's backstory, he comes across as such a heroic figure as almost legendary. That moment when Nynaeve overhears Moiraine calling him the "Lord if the Seven Towers" among other titles, made her feel out of her depth...way outclassed...as she naturally should. It provided more  impetus for her growth.

 Rafe apparently didn't want that. Character growth takes time.  (Yeah, I know...a showy funeral...wasted time doing that to reinforce the idea that we really don't have a Malkieri here)

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

The review of episode 5 on the main page if Dragonmount sums it up quite well, I think, from a neutral perspective. Book Lan's version of masculinity has been replaced with a more modern interpretation of masculinity. I actually feel deeply uncomfortable with this as it feels like it's censoring the types of masculinity that are acceptable and those that aren't.

 

It's so sad that anyone could think the traits Lan has in the book are anything that would need censoring or softening.

 

[pyrusmole]

5 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Brah, find your link, copy, and paste. Easy peasy. I can understand that mebe you can't take the time out of your N&N to find the link that you posted. Post it in your next post, and let everyone see your source. Otherwise don't blame me for what people will cornclude.

This is the post he's talking about

But the problem is that it doesn't say what he think it says and actually gives some pretty decent insight into why, as the common criticism goes, we're getting new scenes when they could be filling them in with stuff from the books. I still disagree with a few changes (although I'm really enjoying the show a lot more than I expected. I had my expectations on the floor honestly), but I can definitely see what RJ2 is going for.

On the other hand, after just finishing the first book as part of a re-read. I have not found Lan's character to be that off. I think it's often ignored that for a guy who's so perpetually glum Lan has a pretty decent sense of humor, so I didn't particularly find the moment where Lan is cracking jokes with the Warders around the campfire to be particularly off.
Actually, if I had to place why Lan's relationship with Stepin didn't bother me it's because it, in my eyes, seems to match pretty closely

Spoiler

the relationship he develops with Rand in later books. The scene where he was drinking tea with Stepin reminded me a lot of the scene in TGH where Lan is giving Rand instructions before he meets with Siuan. Lan can be comforting. He was for Rand in that moment. That's how he behaves with his friends.

I'll admit he might be a little too casual for his characterization in the early book but that seems like a fairly minor change, but I think a big part of how we (or at least I) think of Lan's voice is Michael Kramer's voice for him which sounds like a dog growling. It's very sharp and almost never relaxed, but I don't recall the book ever describing Lan's voice as that way.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, pyrusmole said:

This is the post he's talking about

But the problem is that it doesn't say what he think it says and actually gives some pretty decent insight into why, as the common criticism goes, we're getting new scenes when they could be filling them in with stuff from the books. I still disagree with a few changes (although I'm really enjoying the show a lot more than I expected. I had my expectations on the floor honestly), but I can definitely see what RJ2 is going for.

On the other hand, after just finishing the first book as part of a re-read. I have not found Lan's character to be that off. I think it's often ignored that for a guy who's so perpetually glum Lan has a pretty decent sense of humor, so I didn't particularly find the moment where Lan is cracking jokes with the Warders around the campfire to be particularly off.
Actually, if I had to place why Lan's relationship with Stepin didn't bother me it's because it, in my eyes, seems to match pretty closely

  Reveal hidden contents

the relationship he develops with Rand in later books. The scene where he was drinking tea with Stepin reminded me a lot of the scene in TGH where Lan is giving Rand instructions before he meets with Siuan. Lan can be comforting. He was for Rand in that moment. That's how he behaves with his friends.

I'll admit he might be a little too casual for his characterization in the early book but that seems like a fairly minor change, but I think a big part of how we (or at least I) think of Lan's voice is Michael Kramer's voice for him which sounds like a dog growling. It's very sharp and almost never relaxed, but I don't recall the book ever describing Lan's voice as that way.

 

 

I can certainly understand the casting issue - the sequencing has to fit with cast availability and commitment.

The more I see this spoken about and compare it to what it means (what we are seeing) the more I think a really well done animated version would have been the way to go to tell this story properly.

Voiceovers from actors are a lot easier than being at a physical location to shoot at a designated time for long stretches.

 

That is my hope now, that an animated version is inspired to tell the story properly - or even a decent radio play as they did with LOTR on the BBC.