Your Honest Feelings About the End of the Series

[TravellingIsAGatewayDrug]

I finished my first read-through recently. Obviously, there is a gaping hollowness to finishing a series this large, but I was planning on it and saved the prequel to read as a way to wean off of it. Even accounting for that and giving it a bunch of time to sink in, I found several aspects of the ending left me wanting. Wrapping my thoughts/rant in a spoiler below, but how did you all feel about the end? 

 

Spoiler

- The Pacing

 

> I know there was a ton to cover and countless threads to wrap up... Not to mention what was going to be a single massive book was actually dumped into 3 separate ones... Even then, then last book felt rushed to me. I think it should've been at least 4 instead of 3.

 

- Let Them Be Heroes

 

> This one is alright as far as messages go, but I feel Siuan and Brynn's end was unceremonious and abrupt. I get that death is often like that, still felt like a lame end to some rather well-built characters. Same with Rhuarc actually. Egwene and Gawyn's ends were flashier at least. Not a huge fan of any of those deaths honestly, but at leas the latter pair had a spicy exit salvo.

 

- Rand

 

> Whelp, now all that business is handled better go on vacation and let everyone I care about, including my father, think I'm dead. Bruh.

 

Also, I assume since the female-trio had the bond they'll catch up somehow (and he'll step in as a father, uh, maybe?), but I kind of wish it was a bit less open-ended.

 

- Nakomi

 

> I've read a bunch of nerds complaining about this, so I won't go into length on it, but Nakomi is lame.

 

- Loose Ends

 

> As I mentioned, within 3 books they tied up quite a few but there were countless little ones I longed to see wrapped up only to be left wanting.

 

- The Sharans

 

> There culture needed a whole book to expand on. At least there was "River of Souls" to give a bit of a peek into it, but that was not enough to truly appreciate their culture and mindsets.

 

 

- The Land of the Mad Men

 

> Oi, there's a whole dang Australia on the map they didn't mess with in the series proper. What the heck?!

 

- The Red-Veils

 

> I really thought they could've expanded on this more.

 

I'm sure there's more that I've already forgotten at this point, but I had to dump this somewhere lol.

Edited October 17, 2023 by TravellingIsAGatewayDrug

[Yamezt]

3 hours ago, TravellingIsAGatewayDrug said:

> There culture needed a whole book to expand on. At least there was "River of Souls" to give a bit of a peek into it, but that was not enough to truly appreciate their culture and mindsets.

I really didn't like River of Souls - but to be fair, it was cancelled from the books before it was reviewed by RJ's team so a lot of the weirdness and inconsistency was left in.

 

I've lost count the number of times I've read the first 11 books (speed reading through 1). But for the last 3 books, I probably read tGS a max of 3-4 times, ToM a max of probably 2 times and AMoL only once. I actually overall enjoyed tGS. There were bits that sounded like RJ and I remember feeling quite nostalgic reading it at that time wondering if those bits were penned by RJ.

 

I hated ToM of the 3.

 

AMoL - I liked better than ToM. I do feel very conflicted about the ending (even though it has been 10 years). On the one hand, I am glad to get "an ending" even if it felt like RJ wasn't quite there other than the epilogue, but at the same time there is a part of me that would love WoT to never end. Had RJ survived, I would have been quite happy for RJ to drip feed me several more books after the last battle.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Yamezt

[books of Robert Jordan]

Quote

 Your Honest Feelings About the End of the Series

 

Knife of Dreams is a very good ending, it could have been much worse*. Jordan wanted an ending where not all of the details are wrapped up and leave the reader wondering how it will continue, and I can happily report that Mission: Accomplished!

And we all know that Jordan wanted to write (three) outrigger novels plus two prequels, and I'm very sure that if he were still alive right now we would be neck-deep in another WOT series (starring Rand, Mat, Egwene and so on). But he died. And with him Wheel of Time died too.


*there are terrible rumours...

[DojoToad]

I was fine with the ending.  Don't need loose ends tied up.  Some had hero moments on page others didn't - all good.  Like many on here, I read through the early books a dozen times or more.  The entire series, prequel through AMoL, only twice - but currently on my 3rd time through...

 

We would have gotten something different from Jordan but I was quite satisfied how Sanderson finished it as a whole.  A few things I didn't like and/or understand - Nakomi and Shara.  Otherwise great ending to a great story for me!!

[Asthereal]

I love the ending. It's not perfect, but I love it anyway. All the main storythreads got to proper conclusions, the Light won, there were many awesome things that happened and I was generally just very happy to get what we got.

 

We had no business expecting anything more - in fact we had no business expecting anything close to the level of story we got - as Sanderson is a completely different writer with completely different strengths and weaknesses, and let's face it: finishing the biggest fantasy series ever is already a daunting enough task as is.

 

But if I have to complain about things, which I don't want to, my list would be:

 

Spoiler

- Gawyn,  Galad and Lan fighting Demandred as a level 1-2-3 felt wrong.

- Padan Fain's storyline needed much more to come to a satisfying conclusion.

- Lanfear going: on 3. 1... 2... aaand she died. Sanderson meant something else here than what I read into it, and we've had a discussion here that you can read back. I recommend you don't do that though, as many people gave many terrible arguments based on gut feelings that were proven wrong by facts, but they refused to accept those as such, using Death of the Author as defence. Which is a dismal defence when the author is in fact not dead and actively releasing the information in question. Oh oops, now I got back into it again... Sigh. Anyway, check the Dusty Wheel + Sanderson AMoL 10 year anniversary stream for more info.

I did not dislike Nakomi, the pipe or Rand's walking away at all. They allow for cool speculation and theorycrafting, and decades later people will still be discussing those things. I like it this way.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Asthereal

[Ioulaum]

I was like... Eh??

 

First, the Dark One was turned into a total loser who could be crushed in Rand's hand once he was brought into the world... After all the fake scenarios that he and Rand experienced that were just distracting from the plot.

 

And then we find that the ending that Robert Jordan had most likely written before he started writing the series was... That Rand would finally be able to put down the weight of responsibility and be completely free...

 

"Duty is heavier than a mountain; death is lighter than a feather" ...

 

Overall, the ending was very contrived and not very satisfying... Especially the excuse for why the Dark One needed to be left alive.

 

Humans do not need Satan, to lead them astray or make them evil. We are perfectly capable of that on our own. lol

[Ioulaum]

It would've been nice if RJ's actual notes for the final books had been released along with the books.

 

I would like to know what details Brandon Sanderson changed or added on himself.

 

Some of the writing definitely had the vibe of fanfiction, and of a perspective that is more akin to a reader's than a writer's.

 

Like how the question of whether Mat was one of the Heroes of the Horn... If that is the answer, then it's almost not worth giving the answer. Because it takes away from people's imaginations while not really adding anything.

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, Ioulaum said:

It would've been nice if RJ's actual notes for the final books had been released along with the books.

 

I would like to know what details Brandon Sanderson changed or added on himself.

 

Some of the writing definitely had the vibe of fanfiction, and of a perspective that is more akin to a reader's than a writer's.

 

Like how the question of whether Mat was one of the Heroes of the Horn... If that is the answer, then it's almost not worth giving the answer. Because it takes away from people's imaginations while not really adding anything.

I would love to have something like the Tolkien notes that where released, but, we had a load of drafts and re writes (and christopher tolkien did milk that alot), I think from what BS has said the idea of "notes" is a very very loose thing, there where ideas that had to be formed into a story. 

to the OP, I agree, the first time I read them I liked them, because the series was coming to an end, but I have since re read them about 7 or 8 times and they have to count amongst some of the worst fantasy writing I have read, the worst thing is that there is an essence there, but BS fails to stick the landing (in my opinion) multiple times. I think the fact is we need to live with what we have and be grateful that this is not GOT, to be fair it taught me an important lesson, never start a fantasy series that has not been finished, especially if the Author is a slow writer who is nearer to death then birth 🙂 

[Gypsum]

Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed AMoL and its two predecessors. Most of the Last Battle played really well. I didn't even mind the Sharans showing up out of nowhere or Padan Fain meeting a sudden and ignominious end. He sort of ran out of things to do anyway.

 

I thought Rand's battle with the Dark One was interesting, though I was amused that the Last Battle was actually about moral philosophy more than anything else. At the time I read it, I'd just finished watching The Good Place and I saw them as making oddly similar arguments about what it means to be human.

 

The Good Place shows us that almost no humans cannot get to the Good Place in the afterlife because every single decision we make or thing we do ripples out, and it will have consequences somewhere that will be negative  -- to other people, the environment, etc. So a bit of chaos theory as well. When our protagonists visit the Good Place for themselves, they find that everyone there is stupid and vacuous and boring. They conclude that humans can never be wholly good or live perfect lives (so therefore the concept of having a Good and a Bad Place is flawed, because everyone will go to the Bad Place), and when they are, they become weirdly postive hollow shells. When humans have freedom of choice, they make stupid or even harmful decisions or actions, but taking that ability, that freedom away so people can only do good and have no choice, causes greater harm to the very nature of humanity.

 

In AMoL, the Dark One shows Rand a vision of the world where Rand wins, and he/she/it is not in it (characterizing a non-human, non-corporeal being as male is an interesting choice of Jordan's...nevermind). All Rand's friends are stupid, vacuous, and boring; they are hollow shells of positivity but not themselves. Rand concludes that people need 'the Dark,' they need the freedom to make bad decisions in order to be fully actualized humans.

 

You see the link? I did anyway. You can obviously query the metaphysics: why do we need some vague non-human, non-corporeal but sentient entity floating around in the Blight in order to facilitate humans having moral freedom of choice, and if you get rid of that being, they will no longer have it. But it's probably best not to.

 

The bits I didn't like: Demandred's sword fighting. That felt like Sanderson saying, "I had an idea! Wouldn't it be cool to have Demandred fight Gawyn, Galad, and Lan." I mean, why on earth would he put himself at that kind of risk when he could just blast these guys into bits with a fireball? Sanderson's prose never convinced me that his ego was that big or that he was that stupid. It just felt like something the author fancied writing because it would be fun and would give Lan something Heroic to do.

 

Rand's ending. The body switch had me going, "Huh?"  Okay, best never to question too many mechanics or the laws of physics in WoT world. But then him saying "F*ck it, peace out," and riding off into the sunset, leaving his wives and friends and father to grieve, just felt out of character. I can appreciate why one would do that, but it didn't feel right for him, after getting to know him for 14 novels. I'm also not sure how you'd write that scene: "Hey, I know I look like one of the Forsaken, but honestly, it's me!" But I'm sure you'd work it out.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Gypsum

[Scarloc99]

54 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed AMoL and its two predecessors. Most of the Last Battle played really well. I didn't even mind the Sharans showing up out of nowhere or Padan Fain meeting a sudden and ignominious end. He sort of ran out of things to do anyway.

 

I thought Rand's battle with the Dark One was interesting, though I was amused that the Last Battle was actually about moral philosophy more than anything else. At the time I read it, I'd just finished watching The Good Place and I saw them as making oddly similar arguments about what it means to be human.

 

The Good Place shows us that almost no humans cannot get to the Good Place in the afterlife because every single decision we make or thing we do ripples out, and it will have consequences somewhere that will be negative  -- to other people, the environment, etc. So a bit of chaos theory as well. When our protagonists visit the Good Place for themselves, they find that everyone there is stupid and vacuous and boring. They conclude that humans can never be wholly good or live perfect lives (so therefore the concept of having a Good and a Bad Place is flawed, because everyone will go to the Bad Place), and when they are, they become weirdly postive hollow shells. When humans have freedom of choice, they make stupid or even harmful decisions or actions, but taking that ability, that freedom away so people can only do good and have no choice, causes greater harm to the very nature of humanity.

 

In AMoL, the Dark One shows Rand a vision of the world where Rand wins, and he/she/it is not in it (characterizing a non-human, non-corporeal being as male is an interesting choice of Jordan's...nevermind). All Rand's friends are stupid, vacuous, and boring; they are hollow shells of positivity but not themselves. Rand concludes that people need 'the Dark,' they need the freedom to make bad decisions in order to be fully actualized humans.

 

You see the link? I did anyway. You can obviously query the metaphysics: why do we need some vague non-human, non-corporeal but sentient entity floating around in the Blight in order to facilitate humans having moral freedom of choice, and if you get rid of that being, they will no longer have it. But it's probably best not to.

 

The bits I didn't like: Demandred's sword fighting. That felt like Sanderson saying, "I had an idea! Wouldn't it be cool to have Demandred fight Gawyn, Galad, and Lan." I mean, why on earth would he put himself at that kind of risk when he could just blast these guys into bits with a fireball? Sanderson's prose never convinced me that his ego was that big or that he was that stupid. It just felt like something the author fancied writing because it would be fun and would give Lan something Heroic to do.

 

Rand's ending. The body switch had me going, "Huh?"  Okay, best never to question too many mechanics or the laws of physics in WoT world. But then him saying "F*ck it, peace out," and riding off into the sunset, leaving his wives and friends and father to grieve, just felt out of character. I can appreciate why one would do that, but it didn't feel right for him, after getting to know him for 14 novels. I'm also not sure how you'd write that scene: "Hey, I know I look like one of the Forsaken, but honestly, it's me!" But I'm sure you'd work it out.

 

 

The ending I wanted. 
 

Rand stands there at the last battle and finally realises, the darklord is not some evil that dates back to the creator, it is an evil that was imprisoned in the last turning, the last time a great evil was defeated, he realises that the dark lord can be destroyed and there will be no impact. So he destroys it, frees the world and then, fain appears. A new evil that can’t be defeated but, can be contained in the prison that is now empty. And so, the “dark lord” is destroyed, but a new one is imprisoned ready to be unleashed in 20’000 years time. 

[Gypsum]

I'm still trying to figure out what a Dark Lord is, to be honest.

 

But Fain's end worked for me -- he thought he was incredibly important, but he was actually just a bit of a d*ck. 

[Asthereal]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:52 PM, Gypsum said:

... why do we need some vague non-human, non-corporeal but sentient entity floating around in the Blight in order to facilitate humans having moral freedom of choice, and if you get rid of that being, they will no longer have it. But it's probably best not to.

 

I would like to point out that this is a fictional story we're discussing, not the real world. There is no "we", there is only the characters and what they face. And if this is what they face, then we'd better keep that Satan-like figure and keep things the way they are. But I think the main reason why Rand chooses the path he does is that he finds the Dark One is incapable of change: he doesn't learn, he doesn't adapt. He'll just do this until all eternity, just like the Creator planned. Elan was wrong: there is no mathematical possibility the Dark One will win, and so he never will. The Dragon will always choose to seal him back in his prison and this pattern will repeat infinitely.

[Mark1]

HI, 

 

Brand new to the website, just finished the books and love so many of the characters, Mat and Elayne being among my favorites.  Probably a topic that has been addressed many times but is there any talk of there being more books written by someone? Would love to see what Mat does with the Seanchan, surely still plenty of evil out there for the White Tower to fight.  The Sharans, etc... Has there been any talk of more books? Thanks

[Storeebooq]

Some things I liked, some I hated. 

 

I liked: 

• Rand's confrontation with the Dark One
• Demandred not having the luxury of fighting Rand. Sorry bub. 
• The Asha'man being recognized as true guardians by the people.
• All the chaos of the various battles. 
• The turned channelers being captured for rehabilitation by the Ogier. loved it lol 

 

I did NOT like: 

• Siuan getting killed off screen. 
• Egwene having to die. Honestly, pissed me off. Rand got to live, but after all her struggle, Eggy died? Just so she could yell at Rand as he confronted the Dark One? WTF.  
• Alanna's storyline and role at the end. Kinda a dud. I hope they do better in the show. 
• The final confrontation of killing of Padin Fain was also a dud to me. I expected more and I hoped that his presence would really cause some chaos between both the dark and light forces. He was setup as a wild card, and then he's just killed off handedly. Boring. 
• The confrontations between Rand and Egwene. I think Brandon really missed the mark and their talks were off character and dismissed all the character development both made. 
• Alivia's role at the end. I think Brandon's interpretation of how she "helped him to die" was incorrect. I wanted her to have a more interesting role. Maybe even be the one that finalized the body swap. It's still possible she did, as the scene after Rand leaves the cave is kind of vague...but still. 

 

 

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 12/1/2023 at 4:24 PM, Mark1 said:

HI, 

 

Brand new to the website, just finished the books and love so many of the characters, Mat and Elayne being among my favorites.  Probably a topic that has been addressed many times but is there any talk of there being more books written by someone? Would love to see what Mat does with the Seanchan, surely still plenty of evil out there for the White Tower to fight.  The Sharans, etc... Has there been any talk of more books? Thanks

As far as I know, no there won't be. The Seanchan books are one line of Mat dicing in an Ebou Dar alleyway (iirc) and that is it. No notes, nothing. And so far as I know that means everyone involved sees it as a dead end as it would be someone else's work entirely. 

 

That may change, but I don't think for the foreseeable future. Not unless the rights are sold to someone else, which I don't think will happen any time soon. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[WheelofJuke]

I think, without being too verbose, like most, my feelings are mixed. 

[Bugglesley]

A contribution in no particular order:

 

- I like that it's over. I like that there are still mysteries. I like that we have no idea exactly what went on or what's going on in Shara, I like that we can wonder what might happen after the surely-to-be-increasingly-misnamed Last Battle. I think these are strengths of the narrative, not weaknesses; having every wiki page filled out and every t crossed and every i dotted is not good storytelling to me. A fully understood world is a boring one.

 

I like talking about this one! I would absolutely hate if someone tried to pick it up and do their own thing. Even with HJ actively involved and an actual mountain of notes and his level best, a pro like Brando Sando turned out work that felt.. off. Anything new would be worse; it's completely unavoidable. I know I can just not read it (just as I have just stopped watching the other turning of the wheel...) but still.

 

- Again my feelings on the minute to minute are mixed (not going to relitigate Mat) but the broad strokes of the ending I tend to like. I like that not every character gets a big shining moment, and some of them just get got. Padan Fain got exactly what he deserved; more than anything he wanted to be important and being dispatched as an afterthought brought me joy. Structurally there's criticisms to be made that so much of the Last Battle is between our heroes and an army that just appeared instead of any of the looming threats we've been seeing our heroes battle for most of the series, but I thought it fit well into the wider pattern (ha) of "taking your eye off the ball." We get shocked with the Seanchan really early on in the series, many semi-antagonists get shocked with the Aiel being very relevant and not just distant "savages," and like oh yeah there are just tons of people over there in Shara that we've just not dealt with at all. On one level it's "oh wow they came outta nowhere" and on another it works perfectly; of course the Shadow is working there as well! And without the real Dragon to mess around it was able to just win.

 

- I really don't have any beef with any of the other characters' endings. Egwene died as she lived, biting off more than she could chew. Gawyn died as he lived, making awful decisions. Siuan died as she lived, doing things in the background that nobody really appreciated.

 

The final battle being one of philosophy and not of power is also really not the problem to me other have said it is. "Rand beats the dark one in a fight and fain replaces him" would be the lamest, marvel multiverse ass ending. It is, literally, exactly what the Dark One wants  you to think would happen.

 

When it comes to the philosophy itself yeah I'm not sure it fully checks out. The comparison to A Good Place is an apt one, where the final conflict ends up asking at a real basic level what even is "good"? Interestingly WoT ends up quite Christian, where a standard response to Theodicy (if God is all good and all powerful why is there evil) is that "good" only exists and a concept in opposition to evil, and that it can't exist on its own; that without the option to be evil, there is no meaning in choosing to be good. It's not terrible, and I think some takes on this in the thread have approached it maybe too literally. Like if you're complaining "he was a loser who Rand could crush" you really missed the point. The Dark One is not a single consciousness or bad boss, it's the teleological concept of evil, selfishness, chaos, etc. If you expected Rand and the fundamental concept of evil to duel with swords by having Tiger goes to the Grocery Store meets Cat raked the Litterbox you're in the wrong mindset here. That's what Demandred is here for. The moral philosophy is the fight.

 

Fantasy authors have this incredible power to define reality within their worlds. Our ultimate conclusion RJ's universe presents Rand is that it is actually impossible for things to be better, or more precisely for things to be made better. The Dragon will save humankind (prevent the breaking of Wheel), but he will never and can never save us from the many ways we harm each other (the various oppressions of the Seanchan/the Tower(s)/the nobility, wars more generally, individual acts of petty harm, bossy village Wisdoms) without rendering us inhuman. Ishmael concludes the best thing to do in that situation is to give in and blow it all up as the only way to escape; Rand concludes ("correctly") that we just have to do the best with what we have as messy, imperfect humans. I think it's fine! It's definitely of a piece with RJ's overall worldview; an acknowledgement the status quo is unjust and untenable, but a deep skepticism of anyone (like Ishy pre-tantrum that he can't, like baby Rand in Tear/Cairhein or Darth Rand later) who think they can just sweep in and change everything all at once by (in some cases literal) magic.

[Aan-Alone]

I liked how things ended. And like some have already said  here, I was just grateful to get an ending.

 

Did BS do right by us, the fan-base? For me, yes. And here's why...I got sucked into Randland with the BS-written books just as surely as RJs. Well, maybe not as surely but it did happen [the thread title does ask honesty]. The BS books felt really off the first time I read them. This feeling stuck through to my first reading of AMoL. Afterwards, I didn't touch WoT for 10 years or more. Recently, I did a complete read through. Last 3 still felt a little off, but only a little. And I couldn't be happier. 

 

Plot...excellent. BS originally signed on to finish in a single volume. We got 3 instead. Can't ask for much more. And we're still talking about this part of the story...more than a decade since the final book was released. Not true RJ material, but similar enough...for this reader anyhow.

 

Could things have been better? Sure, had RJ lived. But that seems awful selfish, IMO. From what I understand and remember, RJ made hella notes regarding the end of the WoT because he knew he wouldn't survive to finish himself. And RJ didn't want to leave us fans, or whoever would complete the WoT, with something inadequate.

 

So I can honestly say this reader is very satisfied with the ending.

[MostOfTsushima]

That feeling only exists with things worth spending time on.

That void left by the end of something engaging, captivating, delicious or intriguing is not a flaw of the creation, but the nature of one who appreciates the lack.  

When you're constantly thinking "what happens next!?"  

What happens when there's nothing left??

 

[DojoToad]

Think I mentioned this on a thread here years ago - the last books Jordan put out were a slog for me personally (there were some great scenes, but overall hard to get through).  Had he lived, we might have gotten to book 20 and still not reached the last battle.  RJ seemed to have lost his way and was struggling with how to complete the series.  Visions of GRRM...

 

We got different books because Sanderson had to finish the series for Jordan, but at least he wrapped it up.  Some folks were more satisfied than others.  But I think we would have had complaints about plot line and character endings even if it had been Jordan.  So criticisms of how Sanderson finished it ring hollow for me.

 

And I don't really care for Sanderson's writing style in his own books.  Love the first Mistborn novel, but the other two fell flat for me overall.  Same with the Stormlight series.  Some great ideas regarding the magic system and world-building for both but in the end I didn't care about his characters.  So that Sanderson could get me loving WoT novels again was a major accomplishment from my perspective.

 

Jordan created a world, characters, and story that I would stay with to the end no matter what.  But Sanderson rejuvenated the series for me and brought it home strong if not perfectly.

[WheelofJuke]

Honest feelings about the end: 

To be brief, kinda disappointed. 

The series seemed (to me) largely to lose traction after LoC. RJ spun out some crazy threads that were just too much to gather back in successfully, especially without RJ alive to do so himself. 

Sanderson did okay. I'm glad he finished the series. Definitely not trying to rag on him as an author. He did a reasonable job, even if I don't particularly care for his style (vs. RJ's). 

I think the more I reflect on the impossible pipe ending, the more I'm okay with it; however, too many loose ends just floating about without proper resolution. Rand as a father?  Rand as a son? Rand as a lover? All "off" at the end...imho.