tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[DojoToad]

 

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Camera angles can be funky. I used some basic measuring stuff to show Loial taller than Perrin.

 

As it turns out, the distances & angles were a lot more skewed then I thought. 

It looks like they have him wearing something to give him extra height, and I'm guessing they can only do so much with the stilts they use for Trollocs.

 

But yes, you are right, they could have used more complex camera angles to give him extra Height.

 

I will say, that the early photos didn't do him justice. The minor cgi touchup helped. If anything, I wish they gave him more peachfuzz hairy face then he's got now. Not a fan of the blonde hair either.

 

That said, he nailed Loial's personality/mannerisms.

Wow, that is the first clear picture I've seen of Loial.  How anyone can mix up an ogier and a trolloc I'll never understand.  Other than his enormous hands he looks human-ish to me.

 

Like I said - he is an extremely important character, but he was secondary.  For scenes that require him they couldn't do the camera trick thing?

[Elder_Haman]

All in all, it wasn’t my favorite episode. Mostly because of little shortcuts like Loial suddenly appearing with Nyn. An extra scene or two could have made it better.  
 

The Stepin plot was boring for me - mostly because I already guessed he would die. But I do think it will play an important role in establishing expectations for the behavior of Warders who lose their Aes Sedai. 
 

I’d give that episode 7.5/10

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

There are multiple instances in the books where the white cloaks are seen operating in or near the bridge towns.  Their presence that close to the Tower is consistent with the books in that respect.

 

 

Consistent, yes.  But with so much else changed from the book take a chance to make an improvement.  Like the interactions between Nynaeve and Lan.

[AusLeviathan]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t remember Rand punching someone who was holding him at sword point. I do know that Rand does not like enclosed spaces and that he does not ever want to hurt women. His response to Dana did not feel off to me in the least.

In TDR Rand beheads a woman, him not wanting to hurt women even when the situation requires it comes later, around the time that he starts hearing Lews Therin's voice.

 

Yeah Rand punches a Darkfriend trying to get him when he starts encountering them and he also stands up to the Whitecloaks in Baerlon to the point he even tells them "accidents happen" and has some of them intimidated.

Edited December 3, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[TheDreadReader]

14 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

 

It's also quite funny because Rand was talking about Egwene and he came back with a two rivers person and is like "look I found the girl you spoke of" and of course it's not who Rand spoke of at all.

 

That's how I saw it too.   I took it as a subtle joke on the part of the writers.  Just like Loial finding her in the garden was a subtle reference to Rand's adventure in the Caemlyn gardens.   The same with how Rand was sitting on the balcony railing when Mat and him saw Logain.

 

Padan Fain lurking in the crowd felt like references to Fain in Baerlon along with the white cloaks lurking outside the city.  I was half expecting Rand to see Fain and chase after him the way he does in Baerlon.

 

A bunch of subtle nods to book readers scattered throughout the episode like that.

[Agitel]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 

Wow, that is the first clear picture I've seen of Loial.  How anyone can mix up an ogier and a trolloc I'll never understand.  Other than his enormous hands he looks human-ish to me.

 

Like I said - he is an extremely important character, but he was secondary.  For scenes that require him they couldn't do the camera trick thing?

 

Some people have never seen a Trolloc or Ogier.

 

According to Rafe, those camera tricks and multi-takes of the same scene in different sized sets and all the other tricks would eat too much into their budget, and he'd prefer to have Loial (who he called a core character) present for more scenes rather than reduce the number of scenes he appears in due to filming and budget constraints. So they went with practical effects and stilts/raised boots.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

him not wanting to hurt women even when the situation requires it comes later, around the time that he starts hearing Lews Therin's voice.

That’s just not accurate. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Like I said - he is an extremely important character, but he was secondary.  For scenes that require him they couldn't do the camera trick thing?

Well, take the Trollocs.
They are absolutely massive compared to Humans even in the show, right? 

Yet, how much time do we see them on screen? ~5, 10, 20 minutes tops?

We all know they were very budget conscious, so that gives us two possibilities.
A) Loial is going to be around a lot of screen time, and to reduce the budget they went with as many practical effects as possible, while balancing the time required to sit in makeup before they can shoot. 
(Ron Perlman in Hellboy often spent ~2-4 hours in a chair becoming Hellboy)

B) Loial isn't going to be around much, and they blew their entire budget on Episode 1, so they went with the cheapest practical effects they possibly could to make him look like a very large human.

[AusLeviathan]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

That’s just not accurate.

He beheads a woman who he believes is a threat in TDR. His insistence on not hurting women at all comes later in the series.

 

What exactly isn't accurate?

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

Some people have never seen a Trolloc or Ogier.

 

According to Rafe, those camera tricks and multi-takes of the same scene in different sized sets and all the other tricks would eat too much into their budget, and he'd prefer to have Loial (who he called a core character) present for more scenes rather than reduce the number of scenes he appears in due to filming and budget constraints. So they went with practical effects and stilts/raised boots.

I understand his reasoning, just think it takes too much away from the ogier race.  And I think the make-up was atrocious.  Stilts/raised boots were not enough.  Loial is not an 'action' character for most of the books.  Make him absolutely tower over the other characters.  When the ogiers eventually fight, you can get rid of that stuff and film them separately in their battles against trollocs.

[Sabio]

9 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Ok. Back on topic. 

Just finished a rewatch. 

 

I only saw 8 Forsaken statues. 

 

Pretty sure Moiraine's secret window is her spying on Nyn's room. It's a women with her back turned looking out a window in the ... Picture? 

 

The acting is brilliantly done. 

 

Still bummed/disappointed that they spent ... Over 10 minutes on Steppin (the actor did well but as a book fan - kind of pissed you cut so much for that). 

 

Opinion hasn't changed that this episode was a pretty major let down. 

 

Since Nyn was staying in the Warder's chamber, I would be a little worried about Moiraine if she had a secret window to the Warder's rooms.

 

Also seems a bit odd an Ogier can find Nyn and get her to go with him and Moiraine's great eyes and ears are clueless.

 

I'm worried there are only 8 forsaken because if the guesses of who those 8 are is correct.  It means most the Forsaken Rand off''s in the first 5 books are gone.  So that is some major rewriting of some key events.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

He beheads a woman who he believes is a threat in TDR. His insistence on not hurting women at all comes later in the series.

 

What exactly isn't accurate?

His insistence on not hurting women is with him from the beginning of the series. He is suffering from the effects of the taint when he decapitates the woman in tDR.

[Beidomon]

13 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

We got a Blood and Bloody Ashes...

 

No we didn't. We got "Bloody Ashes." That particular wager is still OPEN with three episodes to go. 

 

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

In TDR Rand beheads a woman, him not wanting to hurt women even when the situation requires it comes later, around the time that he starts hearing Lews Therin's voice.

 

Yeah Rand punches a Darkfriend trying to get him when he starts encountering them and he also stands up to the Whitecloaks in Baerlon to the point he even tells them "accidents happen" and has some of them intimidated.

 

He punched a kid who was being annoying but not threatening at all. Pretty big difference compared to someone holding him at swordpoint.

[AusLeviathan]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

His insistence on not hurting women is with him from the beginning of the series. He is suffering from the effects of the taint when he decapitates the woman in tDR.

Okay, so how about in TGH when Rand responds to seeing the Maidens in the Stedding by drawing his blade without thinking and comes to the conclusion that he's not worried about hurting them anymore and will do what he needs to in order to stop them hurting him.

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I understand his reasoning, just think it takes too much away from the ogier race.  And I think the make-up was atrocious.  Stilts/raised boots were not enough.  Loial is not an 'action' character for most of the books.  Make him absolutely tower over the other characters.  When the ogiers eventually fight, you can get rid of that stuff and film them separately in their battles against trollocs.

 

I'm of a difference of opinion on the Ogier height and am fine to leave it there, but as to the make up, I suggest looking at Loial in motion in the episodes. The prosthetics and make up look great.

[Elder_Haman]

How about it? Does he hurt them? Does he even try? And doesn’t that exact passage actually prove my point? He does not want to hurt women. He has to try to psych himself up to do it. 

[Sabio]

We also saw that with Mat throughout the series, he didn't want to hurt women but was willing to kill a woman to save his life.

 

I took Rand's sword drawing as more of everyone else was acting that way and the shock of seeing an Aiel.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Sabio

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Okay, so how about in TGH when Rand responds to seeing the Maidens in the Stedding by drawing his blade without thinking and comes to the conclusion that he's not worried about hurting them anymore and will do what he needs to in order to stop them hurting him.

Think he was only drawing his sword because everyone else was.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

Also did you just try and downplay the box? Egwene was treated like an animal but she had a friend to talk to, she was at least given some level of kindness even if only to make sure she played along. Rand was thrown in a box where he couldn't move all day and only taken out for beatings, there was nothing positive for him to look to in his situation.

Rand does have a certain amount of company in there.

[AusLeviathan]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

How about it? Does he hurt them? Does he even try? And doesn’t that exact passage actually prove my point? He does not want to hurt women. He has to try to psych himself up to do it.

He draws his blade without thinking, only thinks about them being women when Mat mentions it and quickly dismisses it when he realizes the danger.

 

Early in the series Rand will hurt a woman to defend himself, his refusal to hurt women at all costs comes later. It's as simple as that.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

How about it? Does he hurt them? Does he even try? And doesn’t that exact passage actually prove my point? He does not want to hurt women. He has to try to psych himself up to do it. 

 

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Okay, so how about in TGH when Rand responds to seeing the Maidens in the Stedding by drawing his blade without thinking and comes to the conclusion that he's not worried about hurting them anymore and will do what he needs to in order to stop them hurting him.

Remember, this topic is about Episode 5, not about Rand's inconsistencies when it comes to harming women.

[Sabio]

I do think it still would of been better to have Perin stab the Whitecloak and not Egwene.  The killing whitecloaks was a big thing of his story arc.  Seemed an unnecessary change.

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I'm of a difference of opinion on the Ogier height and am fine to leave it there, but as to the make up, I suggest looking at Loial in motion in the episodes. The prosthetics and make up look great.

Clarifying - don't disagree that they did a good job with the prosthetics/make-up, but that they didn't differentiate him enough from humans.  He looks like a large man to me, not a different race/species.

 

On the plus side, everyone seems to agree that the actor nailed the character.

Edited December 3, 2021 by DojoToad

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

I do think it still would of been better to have Perin stab the Whitecloak and not Egwene.  The killing whitecloaks was a big thing of his story arc.  Seemed an unnecessary change.

 

With Perrin confessing in just that moment it would have been a bit much. But I do think Perrin shoving him down and him hitting his head and going unconscious would have been enough. Maybe have Perrin weigh doing more and tossing aside a weapon. It'd still be different from the book, but I feel like he needs to be shown as at least initiating some action.