tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Pandemonium]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Liked:

• Nothing is more dangerous than a man who knows the past
• Most Thom, Mat, and Rand scenes
• Lan and Nynaeve interactions
• You always get emotional when I drink
• Are you sure you haven’t already found it?
• Fade scared of mashadar?
• Moiraine confronting Logain after escape
• Using their own arrows against them
• Nynaeve’s radiant sun moment

Did not like:

• Ila still in the lead rather than Raen
• Thom fighting successfully against the fade. Should have been pinned to the wall
• Why didn’t Aes Sedai link to hold the shield?
• Why was Aes Sedai camp so far from the cave with Logain?
• Why did warders and Aes Sedai have such a hard time with Logain’s army?
• Fight choreography terrible
• About 100 people in Logain’s “army”
• Why don’t Aes Sedai and Warders stand ground after initial contact - retreating fight puts them at disadvantage 
• Moiraine left with scar on initial healing
• Why did Logain stand like an idiot while the Aes Sedai linked to gentle him - he fought everything else
• Steppin did not go into berserker rage I expected

I think Logain gave up after he saw Nynaeves power.  Moiraines talk may have unnerved him and Nynaeves miraculous power may have made him realize he is not the Dragon Reborn.  Also not confirmed yet is whether Logain can sense taveren

 which may have also happened in that scene

[Harad the White]

"She's not a companion. She's barely company." Useful and witty dialog.

[DaddyFinn]

35 minutes ago, Fox said:

Did the Aes Sedai break the 3 oaths in that battle? Alanna intentionally dropped those arrows on the soldiers. 

Well, the oaths are only as binding as how each Aes Sedai allows them to be. Few dozen soldiers attacking would make it easy to convince herself she or her warders or the other Aes Sedai are in immediate danger. I love how she used the arrows. It made the "stop them in mid-air" not cheesy or weird at all. I wondered before why wouldn't she just slap them away with Air

[Harad the White]

23 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

I think Logain gave up after he saw Nynaeves power. 

He was immediately attacked by powerful forces. Did not see a surrender.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

If I might advocate an alternate theory his madness may have been healed by N's healing surge - as a rational decision he saw the harm he had done and chose to surrender.  There is precedent for healing of madness.

 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

If I might advocate an alternate theory his madness may have been healed by N's healing surge

Not sure that's a thing. Aes Sedai could have healed instead of gentling, but didn't. Granted Nynaeve gives a super dose.

[DaddyFinn]

Damn, those slow-mo teardrops in Logain's cheeks and his face full of pain and sorrow hit hard on rewatch. Gentling was well depicted.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Except that N heals an Ashaman's madness - the one who sees Fades that are not there - near the end of the books, and there is also true power healing of Lews Therins madness in the prologue.

 

[Harad the White]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

No takers on Elusha Salid? She talks in Logain's ear, spiritually speaking.

Ok in that case, is Elusha Salid, Lanfear? "Lanfear first appeared as Selene; she tried and failed to lure Rand to her side with her sultry beauty and whispers of glory," according to the Wiki. As she was doing to Logain.

[LordyLord]

Objectively speaking this was probably the best episode.

The Logain camp storyline was excellently written to the point that I suspect this was the story RAFE would rather be telling.

The Tinkers storyline is surprisingly emotional.

And they are actually doing a good job with the Dragon misdirect with Mat and Nyaneve.

My Negative for this episode is the same for the WHOLE season.Its a Slow burn. And I really believe that Slow burn seasons are to be BINGED! Not released weekly.

Also as great as the battle was to watch, I still don't see the 10M per episode budget that was rumoured.

Episode as a whole is a 6.5

[A Memory Of Why]

Ok, so much to talk about here and I'm still a lil shellshocked with this episode but I do want to say how heartened I am that the episodes are getting better, this is by far the best episode all round!

OMG!!

 

Right, for now I want to talk about that "explosive" ending..

• Nyn's first no looking at Lan, second  at Logain. And third... Boom!

F'n WOW!!!

 

Regarding what Logain saw, I'm thinking:

• Logains TV vision talent manifested. I'm thinking this is the most likely as one of the only TV things I've noticed was when Nyn killed the Trolloc and its blood coincidentally formed the Dragon fang.
• Or our girl Nyn did more than one weave type; healing weave(s) and a light weave.

Also want to point out Logan mimicking Moraines speech on the Dragon; "like a raging sun".

 

Lastly!!

Anyone else notice Nyn's braid untravelled at the end?

I wonder what that signifies?

 

Sooooooo hungry for more guys.!

[Indil]

A little concerned why Logain was so amazed by Nyn channeling.

 

Nyn unconsciously channelled light or being a Tar'veren could explain him shading his eyes, though I dislike the later idea.

 

The books Logain is supposed to be stronger than Nyn, only below Rand, Ishy, and Raven. Even if the show runners decide to wipe the male/female difference in the One Power, Logain, in the 2nd strongest rank of male channellers, should still be about the same strength or stronger compared to Nyn, who is at best in the 2nd strongest rank of female channellers. Of course, there are possible explanations such as Logain is stunned by Nyn's healing ability, which surely tops anybody in the series, or that he hasn't come into his full potential yet, etc.

 

Considering Rafe said he is going to expand Logain's role, I'm not too worried that he is being nerfed in the show just to demonstrate Nyn is a potential dragon candidate. A reasonable explanation of the scene by the show runners will make me satisfied.

 

All being said, this is the only concern I have with this episode, I'd say it's a solid 8.5~9/10 and is by far my favourite episode till now.

[Maximillion]

Just finishing watching the episode.

 

I really didn't think Rafe could destroy Robert Jordans story any more than he had, but he did.

An absolute insult to the entire works that have gained so much following over 30+ years.

 

In shock about how bad that was.

 

It's now a 'whodunnit' show with stupid pointers as to who it is or it is not being fed to the audience as pretty much the ONLY storyline in the whole sorry production - oh, except for the Ultimate Super Hero Nynaeve.

The ideas are terrible, the writing is terrible.  Shambles.  Made entirely for the Twitterati.

 

The whole series is so rushed and again the dialogue really hard to hear/understand. It really does need subtitles.  I don't think I have heard sound this bad on high budget show before.

 

The decision to leave Thom out of the start showed badly in this episode - we hardly got to know him before his Fade fight that separates him from Rand and Mat - it's like 'meh, minor character moment' in the TV series, vs something much more in the books.

 

The amount of channelling effects in that episode was way too much - it just felt so overdone and cheap. 

 

Lan again proving to be utterly useless without the great warrior princess all round super hero Nynaeve to save his ass.  There's only room for one super badass, as Twitter would put it, in this show.  

 

Morraine has been turned into a weak moron too... wholly reliant on Nynaeve (as is everyone else to be honest). 

 

Logain?  Not sure what the point even was of his extended face time in the show - other than misdirection that lasted one episode.  Such lazy writing. 

 

I did laugh when Lan said that Logain was not 20 and Morraine was confused... it's like all her 20 years of study had been for sh*t. Oh hang on, the Aes Sedai with the 'white eyes' who could 'see clearly' was a crazy old bat after all. ?  It could be Logain .. oh and it could be Nynaeve again... or maybe it is isn't.  

For those who think the DR is definitely Rand - think again.  I would put NOTHING past this show now.  They could bring Arya Stark into the show to kill the Dark One and it wouldn't surprise me.

 

It's not getting any better - after 6 episodes we already know that the DR will not be revealed so write off the entire first season with this nonsense - playing on 'who is the DR' instead of actually telling a story.  At this stage ANY story would be good let alone one that actually tells Robert Jordan's story.

 

Show has gone from a 6/10 for me to a 3/10.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Maximillion

[DermidAjala]

I really enjoy reading how incoherently mad some people get - thank you for regularly predictable amusement.

 

A major departure from source material but certainly not an unwelcome one - making more of Logain is an excellent choice and goes a long long way to making him a more compelling character for the long run and condensing the Asha'man will be necessary. I thought the depiction of him as a man still in control of his demons was brilliant, particularly in the cold open.

 

Quite enjoying the different takes on the power usage between the Ajah. The green's look a lot blunter in their application which makes sense for their role and it gives them some nice differentiation.

 

The quiet scenes with the tinkers were really good and there were a couple of great lines that really grounded their philosophy and lived experience and worked extremely well for Perrin's journey.

 

Mat's corruption was nicely represented and I enjoyed Thom's misinterpretation leading to the Owyn story (which then adds weight to what happens to Logain at the end). I enjoyed the Fade ambush but was a little disappointed that we didn't see Thom in trouble as I think for non-readers it'll be pretty obvious he survives. Birgitte! 

 

Liandrin's actress is killing it and it's going to make her betrayal much much better. I like that the she's a bit less obviously bad news.

 

I'm not wild on the big Nynaeve healing scene but it works for what the show is trying to do and it makes her immediate entrance as Accepted make a bit more sense if multiple sisters have witnessed her raw strength (and then subsequent inability to regularly access it).

 

I am wild on the Nyn+Lan stuff though. So much good content and chemistry and they're really grounding that relationship in a way that RJ never did.

 

I'm guessing we'll end up at Tar Valon by the end of next episode - still think the pacing is just a bit too fast but as they're stuck with 8 eps they basically need to end the next episode there, ahead of introducing some tower politics, bringing in Loial and setting up a bit more world building (although I suppose Loial can fill in some bits in the ways).

[RhienneAgain]

Is Nynaeve being portrayed as stronger than Logain..? His repetition of Moiraine's 'like the sun' comment after watching her healing burst makes it seem that he's in awe of her power (and that it's much greater than his own). 

 

Not sure it would matter much if this was changed from the books (I think the ranking put him considerably above her in strength). I wonder if they'll scrap the book canon that male channelers can achieve greater absolute strength than female..?

[WhiteVeils]

She definitely is stronger, and that's just fine. Why shouldn't she be?

Anyway....did anyone else notice the beginning credits had changed?

[RhienneAgain]

Just now, WhiteVeils said:

She definitely is stronger, and that's just fine. Why shouldn't she be?

 

In the books Logain is much stronger than Nynaeve. As I said, I don't see that changing this impacts on the story in any significant way, but I think there could be knock-on effects of changing the relative character strengths as they affect (particularly Aes Sedai) character interactions.

[DermidAjala]

7 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I wonder if they'll scrap the book canon that male channelers can achieve greater absolute strength than female..?

 

I am sure they will scrap this - it's basically meaningless really and it would be nice to bring one or two of the female forsaken to a similar raw power scale to Demandred / Sammael / Asmo etc.

 

I think you can read Logain's surprise in multiple ways. It might just be a feat he couldn't conceive of - which works with Nyn basically being a healing savant, or it could be that he's not actually come into his full strength yet, or it could be that Nyn is just being positioned to be more powerful (and that's not really fundamentally problematic in the end).

[Gothic Flame]

20 minutes ago, DermidAjala said:

 

I am sure they will scrap this - it's basically meaningless really and it would be nice to bring one or two of the female forsaken to a similar raw power scale to Demandred / Sammael / Asmo etc.

 

I think you can read Logain's surprise in multiple ways. It might just be a feat he couldn't conceive of - which works with Nyn basically being a healing savant, or it could be that he's not actually come into his full strength yet, or it could be that Nyn is just being positioned to be more powerful (and that's not really fundamentally problematic in the end).

If they scrap it then they should scrap linking.

And if Nynaeve no longer has much of a problem with a block then she should be the main healer and healing everyone of everything, including madness.

[themann1086]

31 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Anyway....did anyone else notice the beginning credits had changed?

Oo no I didn't! I'll keep an eye out for it on rewatch

[comicbooksarethebestthing]

The actor playing Rand Acting is so wooden.  I like how they are showing Nynaeve is really powerful, because she can heal many people at one time. Only Rand is a little more powerful than her in the books .

[Daenelia]

Had a great time reading all the opinions once again. And again, I am super happy with this episode!

 

As for what RJ would have wanted or liked, it is kinda irrelevant because in his heart I think he'd want people to be entertained by the series and I think a fair number of people are. If he had not wanted his material out there, he would not have published it. There are very few authors who ban people from forging their own stuff out of their world.

 

There were moments I was grinning (most of the Nyneave/Lan scenes) and moments when I was getting a bit emotional (Perrin's pain). But all in all, yeah: loved it.

 

So did my guy who is drawing some conclusions which I am not allowed to comment on. He won't even look at me when he talks about possibly foreshadowing some stuff that was obvious to me. Because I would confirm or deny in a second with just my eyes. And he likes to be surprised.

 

As for slow-burning, I dont think so. I think they are racing through the material quite nicely, at the right pace. I love that they take slow moments when they can and then throw the audience in a frantic battle. I am (almost) happy with the weekly episodes, because I would just sit and watch them all in one go and that can't be good. I don't like binging at all, so I am happy to be forced to wait 7 more days.

 

Seven. More. Days. With everyone's support here, we might just make it.

[comicbooksarethebestthing]

2 hours ago, Indil said:

A little concerned why Logain was so amazed by Nyn channeling.

 

Nyn unconsciously channelled light or being a Tar'veren could explain him shading his eyes, though I dislike the later idea.

 

The books Logain is supposed to be stronger than Nyn, only below Rand, Ishy, and Raven. Even if the show runners decide to wipe the male/female difference in the One Power, Logain, in the 2nd strongest rank of male channellers, should still be about the same strength or stronger compared to Nyn, who is at best in the 2nd strongest rank of female channellers. Of course, there are possible explanations such as Logain is stunned by Nyn's healing ability, which surely tops anybody in the series, or that he hasn't come into his full potential yet, etc.

 

Considering Rafe said he is going to expand Logain's role, I'm not too worried that he is being nerfed in the show just to demonstrate Nyn is a potential dragon candidate. A reasonable explanation of the scene by the show runners will make me satisfied.

 

All being said, this is the only concern I have with this episode, I'd say it's a solid 8.5~9/10 and is by far my favourite episode till now.

Nynaeve is more power than logain, only rand is a little more powerful than her and she way better at things than Rand like healing.

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, comicbooksarethebestthing said:

Nynaeve is more power than logain, only rand is a little more powerful than her and she way better at things than Rand like healing.

 

In the books Logain is only a tad weaker than Rand. Nynaeve is stronger than any Aes Sedai in 1000 years or so, and she's definitely strong, but she's outstripped by Logain, Taim, a bunch of the Forsaken (women included), some liberated damane, and more. There is a significant gap between Rand and her.

 

This isn't a criticism of the show if it's changing the power rankings. I'm just commenting on where she stands in the books.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Agitel

[ArrylT]

6 hours ago, Harad the White said:

No takers on Elusha Salid? She talks in Logain's ear, spiritually speaking.

 

Cannot find a mention in the books atm