What to keep, what to drop?

[Deadsy]

6 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

If they're gonna have Gawyn turn dark I'd want them to lay the groundwork for it. Give him (and Elayne) real reason to doubt Rand, so Gawyn doesn't come off as an idiot and a product of not-so-great writing. 

 

 

Hey, stupid people do exist in real life ?

[Carebear Sedai]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:19 PM, Deadsy said:

Hey, stupid people do exist in real life ?

 

But will he be as stupid all along? Or will he contract stupidity as the plot needs it? Makes all the difference, lol.

[TheSociopath]

A few random things

 

A - as far as the episode title for 6 goes, it might very well be a flashback to some Moiraine backstory

 

B -  "5. One of the female forsaken needs to be a general" Near the end of aMoL, Moghedien starts commanding after Demandred dies. You could either play this up, or you could play up Mesaana's abilities. These are the two that could concievably fight this criteria, in my opinion.

 

C - I personally really like the idea of combining Gawyn and Galad. As an earlier poster said, if you just drop the Galad name, and have Gawyn start as he does, and then, after the tower, he lets siuan out, has his identity crisis earlier, and then drops out, joins the whitecloaks, and then plays Galad's part in Perrin's arc. 

[Deadsy]

Nevermind, found them.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Deadsy

[TheSociopath]

Just now, Deadsy said:

 

 

Where can I see all the episode titles? When I search all I see are posts from March talking about the title of episode 3.

This seems to have them. Didn't look that long, though

 

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-wheel-of-time-tv-series-update.html

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, TheSociopath said:

This seems to have them. Didn't look that long, though

 

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-wheel-of-time-tv-series-update.html

 

 

Ya I just found them ?

[agreddon]

On 7/9/2019 at 1:42 PM, DragonFairy said:

Yeah, really! Such a good actor to kill off so soon.

 

 

Maybe he likes it.  After all you can't get stale if you're pushing daisies by the end of season one.

[templar7]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:48 PM, johnnysd said:

Not sure they need to cut that much. Despite being hugely long books, I think there is less actual plot in a book from ASOAIF as an example. I think they could do much of the core story if not all of it in 8 seasons. A lot of the stuff in later seasons like Faile's imprisonment, Elayne retaking the throne can be greatly reduced and consolidated. Morgase's imprisonment as well.

 

I think the best thing they can do is to make Mazrim Taim be Demandred as originally intended. Yes I know Jordan denied this but I still don't believe him, he just made it too obvious.

 

I really dont think you can delete any of the main set of characters. Polygamy wont play well so that will likely be morphed into a more girl-centric love triangle +1, encouraging female viewers to "ship" either Elayne, Avi or Min and form Camp Avi, Camp Elayne and Camp Min, and maybe early Camp Egwene. They could actually skip Avi and Min and change it to just Egwene versus Elayne but I dont think they will do that.

 

Also, I actually do think that the WOT is actually women driven. Egwene and Nynaeve are as important as Matt and Perrin in many ways. 

 

It will also be interesting to see how "adult" it is. Jordan's writings were for the most part PG-13 but a lot of the content is at least as hard as Game of Thrones, especially if you want to portray the Forsaken correctly. I expect it to be pretty explicit actually.

I really think combining very select characters will be both necessary and beneficial. I love your idea of merging Mazrim Taim with Demandred.

Care must be taken with regards to the ladies in Rand's life I agree. Page to screen, this could easily look weird to new comers with out the full narrative. Having said that, "girl-centric love triangle +1, encouraging female viewers " scares the crap out of me. This has the danger of coming off way too cheesy if not done right.

I'm all for merging or outright cutting Min's story completely

. She really doesn't push the story in any way I can think of. 

Great points!

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, templar7 said:

She really doesn't push the story in any way I can think of. 

She's the lady that's always bringing Rand back down to Earth.

Elayne teaches Rand to be a King.
Aviendah teaches Rand to be hard as stone.
Min teaches Rand to be Human.

Edited September 6, 2019 by SinisterDeath

[templar7]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

She's the lady that's always bringing Rand back down to Earth.

Elayne teaches Rand to be a King.
Aviendah is teaches Rand to be hard as stone.
Min teaches Rand to be Human.

You make fine points, I forgot about that. Im starting a re read. I still maintain, that while these are important aspects in the written work., in a translation to screen  (especially if curtailing the romance), not necessary. Just my opinion

[Elessar]

Many interesting ideas and thoughts to read in this thread.

 

Good question, what to keep and what to drop when ‘converting’ a massive book-series like the Wheel of Time to the tv-medium. I will share some reflections.

 

I agree with what many have argued already in this thread. I want to see the major events (incl. Moiraine's telling of the 'Fall of Manetheren', the Eye of the World ending-scene in book 1, Falme with Rand and Ishamael duelling in the skies, the Cleansing, Dumais Wells, the attack on the White Tower with Egwene's heroism, Egwene's heroic death in the Last Battle, Rand's battles with the various Forsaken and many many other similar highlights (and also smaller but touching moments) from the epic books).

 

Also I want to keep the main and surrounding characters (our heroes naturally and many semi-important characters) that drive this story. I also want some White Tower / Ajah / Aes Sedai 'intrigue' (so they show differences between Ajahs, mentalities, philosophies etc) since this is part of what interested and intrigued me in the books, hope it is not glossed over in favour of focus (only) on Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida and specific Tower events. As for the 'split Tower' plot, I would be glad if they included it since it is an important part of Egwene's story and also that of Siuan.

 

The closer to canon (the books) they go, the happier I will be. Some things need be left out, of course, both due to the enormous size of the books (f.ex. minor side-plots and minor side-characters) but also some things that do not transfer so well to the screen (f.ex. much internal dialogue). Parts of the books are also very descriptive and detailed as we know and can be shortened or, if necessary, left out without the plot losing impact and resonance.

 

My hope in truth is that the producers behind the Wheel of Time tv-show will make an adaptation with integrity and quality that is a fitting tribute to Robert Jordan's vision and majestic work.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Elessar

[Elessar]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Elayne teaches Rand to be a King.
Aviendah is teaches Rand to be hard as stone.
Min teaches Rand to be Human.

 

 

I agree, very well put!

[johnnysd2]

18 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

She's the lady that's always bringing Rand back down to Earth.

Elayne teaches Rand to be a King.
Aviendah teaches Rand to be hard as stone.
Min teaches Rand to be Human.

 

Some truth to that, though in the end Aviendah is softer than Elayne

 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

Some truth to that, though in the end Aviendah is softer than Elayne

 

Probably has to do with going through the rings again...

[mistborn82]

Right now I'm 1/3 of the way through tGH and so far there's less material than this far into EotW. Visiting Fain, the battle in Fal Dara and the prophecy need to be kept. The whole Liandrin thing I think can be dropped, as well as Rand hiding, and possibly the rehealing of Mat after fain steals the dagger. I think the whole Doman in Illian relevant parts can be told during first voyage as the seal is the only important thing, the male angreal serves no purpose as it never appears again and then all you really need is having Doman meet Turak and give him the seal. Ingtar's journey can told in flashes, not the bloody chapter it takes and I don't know what you do with the flicker as it serves no purpose but if you enhance Fain's role, you might want to keep that.

[Mythodikal]

Hey everybody, first time poster (I think, though I may have had an account in a previous age).  I just read through this entire thread and am very intrigued by some of the ideas.  Obviously transitioning this work of fiction that we love so much to the screen is quite the undertaking, and there is no way that Rafe and crew are going to please everyone.

 

There are two conversations that I have found the most interesting.  The first is cutting out Min, or if not cutting her out then it being impossible for her to be part of the love quartet.  I keep reading that the viewers wouldn't accept it... I ask as readers, when you knew where the story was going, did you see it working?  Did the narrative make it work for you? Because it did for me... so if the book could do it, is it impossible the show could pull it off?  Do we want our deliverer of the story to change major plot lines to protect certain sensibilities? Oh and in this case we are saying 2 girls is passable,  3 not so.

 

This brings me to the next point... SEXUALITY! So scary!  First off I will recognize that there have been people that have out in the research and they apparently know more about how things will play out.  So with that said what I say here is in no way a prediction or a "should do", it's more a response to comments read.

 

Pause for effect...

 

Ok, to start, stop comparing the sex content of GoT to tWoT.  I at no point watching GoT thought to myself "wow they really sexed this up for tv".  I didn't think this because all of it was in the books, if not worse!  The HBO series explicit material followed the content of the source material.  If tWoT follows the source material then it will be nowhere near as raunchy.

 

That being said, if the source material is to be followed, there is PLENTY of sexuality in Mr. Jordan's work.  To start, I'm pretty sure the description of every single female character involves an accounting of the shapeliness of their breasts.  The imagery of each outfit is sure to include how it shapes their chest, or how sheer it is, or at least how it shapes their bottom.

 

As to pillow friends... this isn't something that needs to be created or enhanced in the show.  I say this because it is already there and it is discussed frequently.  How they incorporate that is up to the show runners but I think there is enough source material that it can be done tastefully.  On that note, I get very uncomfortable with discussions of which character you can just "turn gay".  A character is a character almost as much as a person is a person.  You don't turn people gay.

 

Lastly, I find it interesting talking about cultures in fiction like the Aiel, that go to their sweat tents male and female together.  I take this as a comment on inhibitions and improprieties, etc.  Egwene as a fish out of water is personified by the description of the nudity of the tents.  Do you think an back of shoulder camera angle that shows some upper collar bone will give you that full image? Or will it feel like something you watched on Friday nights after Family Matters on ABC in the 90's?

 

So yah, that's my nickle.  Can't wait to be torn apart ?

[JJLXL]

On 10/4/2018 at 5:24 PM, Maedelin said:

Anyway, I wonder how they'll show embracing/seizing the Source and the TP.  I always imagined the Source making the pupils of the channeler go white-gold, and the TP to go red-black.  Did anyone else have little divergences while reading like I did?

 

I hope there are no visual tells that someone has embraced and/or seized the source.  The only tell in the books is when Male channelers get goose bumps if saidar is embraced near them.  If everyone could tell someone was holding the source because of laser beam eyes, that would be a sad thing, IMO.   

Edit:  Yes, I do remember that Female channelers can visually see an aura when other females embrace the source.  That said, Male channelers don't see anything visible when other males embrace the source.  With Men it's more of a feeling.  

 

That said, I really can't wait to see how they show(visually) the weaving of saidin versus saidar from the channelers PoV.  Specifically the weaving.  I definitely wouldn't be opposed to them taking a route similar, yet much more fleshed out, to how they showed Dr. Strange handling his powers in the Marvel movies.

 

Oh, and they can't cut Min.   Who else would handle all of her "viewings"?  Those viewings play a huge role.  

Edited September 24, 2019 by JJLXL

[Maedelin]

JJLXL, yes, while they can't be seen by others, I thought it'd be a better representation for TV/Film.  Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't clear enough.

 

I hope they keep Min too, I really liked her.

[2RiversFan]

On 9/23/2019 at 8:55 PM, JJLXL said:

I hope there are no visual tells that someone has embraced and/or seized the source.  The only tell in the books is when Male channelers get goose bumps if saidar is embraced near them.  If everyone could tell someone was holding the source because of laser beam eyes, that would be a sad thing, IMO.

I haven't done a re-read in a while now, however, I think there are many 'tells' or indications when Rand is seizing the source, particularly during the period where he gets physically sick and dizzy at the point of seizing.  There is also the worry of LTT taking it away from him... 

So anyone that is around him a lot would definitely notice, and anyone with very high intellect and insights into using the Power would also be able to deduce I would think.

[mistborn82]

It's more for the people on screen, the audience has to know since you can't have invisible power fights, I'm thinking particularly of the clash between Nyneave and Moghedien which needs to be shown some way.

[Thrasymachus]

There will have to be some kind of visual tell for male channellers when they seize the Source, and certainly when they weave.  And while men don't "see" when other men have seized the Source, they are able to see the weaves of other men, unless they are inverted.  The best thing to do is probably something that's similar to the "glow" we'll see around embraced women, when we see through the POV of another female channeller, but opposite, to maintain the difference between Saidin and Saidar.  So something like a darkening or possibly a distortion, when we're seeing through Rand's POV on, say, Taim or Logain.

 

There's a thematic reason for keeping all three of the girls, too.  Jordan picked three women to be Rand's love interests intentionally, for thematic reasons, as much as for any of their contributions to the plot or other character's development.  Just as Rand himself is related to, in various thematic ways, the Norse god Tyr, King Arthur (who draws the sword from the Stone), and others, Perrin is a reflection of Thor and/or Perun, Mat is a reflection of Odin, and so forth, so too do the Three have their own literary/mythological grounding.  They are each aspects of the Tripartite Goddess; Maiden, Mother, Crone.  Rand's relationship with each of them reflects those aspects.  Aviendha, the Maiden, must be pursued and seduced.  Elayne, the Mother, both teaches Rand important things he needs to "grow up" and must also be defended and honored (as well as becoming literally a mother when Rand knocks her up).  While Min, the Crone, is a source of both wisdom and comfort.  If these deep thematic elements are dropped, the show would lose some of the richness the books possess.

[JJLXL]

On 9/25/2019 at 1:35 PM, 2RiversFan said:

I haven't done a re-read in a while now, however, I think there are many 'tells' or indications when Rand is seizing the source, particularly during the period where he gets physically sick and dizzy at the point of seizing.  There is also the worry of LTT taking it away from him...

 

I was speaking in a general sense.  Yes, those people around Rand on a continual basis will be able to tell when he's got hold of the source.  But generally speaking, there are no tells when a man or a woman is just holding onto the source.  The exception being women who can channel seeing a glow around other women, and men feeling the tingle of a woman channeling and/or just holding the source.  

 

The only time we should be able to see the weaves is from the view point of 3rd person or from the channeler themselves.  A person who cannot sense the one power should not be able to see the weaves or tell if someone is holding the source. 

[mistborn82]

Just finished tGH and first I think Hurin will disappear after tGH unless he's given a larger role.

I think the conflict between the whitecloaks and Perrin needs to be upped as in the books it's just basically there when needed and shoved to the side when not.

I realize this will be in the future and may not happen but I think Seanchan culture needs more of a disruption from the events at Falme, especially the Suldam, than is shown. 

The whole Lanfear story needs rewriting because some of its interesting, the travelling and the Grolm attacks need changing.

Bayle like Hurin needs to either vanish or get a larger role. The cast is already large and unlike GoT, they don't die easily.

Egwene's captivity, I don't know if more need be shown but in later seasons, if, her trauma needs to be played up as the reason for some of her actions. Because in this day, I don't think you can get away with having her go through trauma like that and never showing it.

I think you drop the illuminator incident but I think you need the shadowspawn attack on Rand and Loial, especially Loial as we need to see him capable of killing in defense.

Finally, at least for now, you need to show Thom kill Gauldrian and also I think you drop Thom's limp as I think that's a leftover of RJ figuring out his world as Myrdraal either kill or don't, unless you're Shaidar Haran.

[JJLXL]

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

I think Hurin will disappear after tGH

Possible.  They also may flesh out thief catchers/takers.  They do provide valuable and convenient additions to the story. 

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

whitecloaks and Perrin needs to be upped

Agreed.  I fully expect the Whitecloaks to play a larger role in the tv series.  

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Seanchan culture needs more of a disruption from the events at Falme

Disruption? Explain.  Do you mean like how they found out channeling can be learned?  I think all the very upper echelons in Seanchan hierarchy definitely are aware.  If they weren't already, they found out after Falme.

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Lanfear story needs rewriting

I believe they will sexualize that story a lot more, to peek viewership.  Also, I'm betting they turn it into a mini-love story.

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Bayle needs to vanish or get a larger role.

I vote for a bigger role.  That said, I really like Bayle, so my opinion here is totally biased.  

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Egwene's captivity

Completely necessary.  Must stay.  That captivity changes her a lot.  It also shows us just how brutal the Seanchan really are.  Plus it sets the scene in Falme nicely.   It also develops the plot lines for the black ajah.  I.e. Liadrin convincing Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne to go to Toman Head to help Rand.

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

the illuminator incident

This can go.  It's largely forgettable and easily worked around.  Matt could come by fireworks for Tear so many other ways.  There will be many chances for Loial to show his fierce side.  

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

show Thom kill Gauldrian

Sure, why not.  People will take Thom a little more serious after seeing him get his hands so dirty in the great game.  Especially if he can get so close to a King.  

 

7 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

drop Thom's limp

Tam also survived his encounter with a Myddraal.  But yeah, the limp could go.  It only serves to hamper the actor playing Thom.  Thom does some pretty crazy acrobatics later with a supposedly bum leg.  So yeah, it's cool on paper, but not the greatest thing for an actor to deal with for potentially 10+ seasons.  Unless he keeps the limp until they run into Morraine again, and she heals it?  

[mistborn82]

@JJLXLI like Bayle too and he's kind of a window into Seanchan culture after he gets taken by Eginin but unfortunately some of our favorite side characters will probably get deleted. That's especially true if the show makes it all the way and all the main characters you're adding.

I guess in tGH the lack of fallout from learning Suldam can channel could be explained by a darkfriend finding them but I think more will have to be shown in later books, especially after Mat accidentally marries Tuon. Since their brutality will be shown not read about, I don't think fans(of the show) would appriciate one of their favorite characters marrying the slave queen without consequences.