[Game]: Black Tower Mafia II - The revolt.

[csarmi]

Just for the record, I'll spell out why I voted Leyrann, just to show how things are not black and white. "I liked where this train was going" for a few reasons:

• I found Ley pinging (slightly overdefensive). Voting for the most scummy read at hand at the point.
• I believed that pressuring him would get some reactions from him that would help getting a better read on him.
• I believed that the train would get reactions from others as well, for instance, the most basic ones would be
  • who leaves the train (and their reasons for it)
  • would someone place a 6th vote, how and why
• essentially starting the game for real right there

In short, I liked where this train was going.

[Talya]

 

 

3) I like this train. unvote vote Ley <-- note, edited the vote tag for the sake of the quote

 

So no other reason for voting than you like his train, and yet he already has quite a few votes by this point. Looks like you are trying to get a quick lynch or a reveal¹, which you got. And then you complain he revealed too early. Ley is a jumpy player, I think it was quite obvious in what he would do². that or you are both in it together to get the real cop to reveal, and make you look good.

 

1) Attributing me some assumptions are we? I'm glad you know why I voted him. No, I said what I thought it looked like to me, and the way you jump off him and on him did. 

2) You're assuming people would know how Ley would react. It's not that you know it. It's that I know it. Yes I am assuming, because it doesn't take rocket science to guess that, and there are people that play who like to wind people up. 

 

 

You were at L-2.

I was at either L-2 or L-1, Csarmi. So, yeah...

You were at 6 votes, 8 to lynch, so L-2. I don't think you were in any real danger of being lynched, not yet.

 

 

I can see why he claimed, not saying I believe him, but³ I wouldn't jump back with a vote on him after a reveal so quickly. how about play the game a bit more, than rushing to lynch a possible Cop. If he is lying he will be caught out sooner or latter.

 

3) Playing both sides are we? As with the other one about this, at that point no counter claim, why should I believe out right, show me someone who does didn't just play my Stargate game, you for one should know about claiming doesn't always mean you are telling the truth. I never believe a claim outright. 

 

 

@Darthe - post restriction

 

 

 

To be honest, I don't even know what is swearing and what isn't swearing in english.

Also, it's not clear to me what's wrong with that post. Is it that BS is a swearword (if that's a swearword)? Is it the tone of the post? Not a clue. I'm pretty sure I'm going to break this nonsense rule somewhere along the line because it's all fair that Tina says that if I'm unsure about something, then I shouldn't post it, but I wouldn't even have been unsure about posting that sentence. I wouldn't have had any doubts or second thoughts about that.

 

 

 

Now as for him having to claim at L-2, I gotta disagree there. While L-2 is usually the right point to claim at, that doesn't apply here.

 

There was nothing common about this situation. Yes he did have some pressure, but I don't believe anyone should have been ready to put him to L-1 (let alobe lynch him) without the game even starting...

 

I have seen many jump in and put votes on, without taking too much note of the vote count. I've been away at work all day and when I saw how many he had I was surprised. Luckily it was brought up and I read the lot before responding, some may not. So his reasoning of claiming is pretty good with me. His validity is another thing ⁴

 

4) Playing both sides again. see above. I said it, but I bet everyone else was thinking it. I tend to put my thoughts down on here, because I don't keep notes, I don't have the time, but also have started and never get the time to keep it up, so it'a a waste of time for me. 

 

 

Are you seriously claiming that L - 2 isn't in danger of being lynched? A person can pick up two votes awfully fast.

Exactly, when I get chance I'm going to check on all those that voted Ley, But Cloud and Csarmi stand out for the moment⁵

 

5) Way to go, throw out some FoS and vote no one. Again why do I have to?

 

IN general, my main problem is that

• your word twisting rubs me the wrong way - the way you attribute thoughts to people, not sure I can explain better
• sitting both side of the horse
• throwing out FoS but not voting

 

 

Mines in purple.

[Talya]

Just for the record, I'll spell out why I voted Leyrann, just to show how things are not black and white. "I liked where this train was going" for a few reasons:

• I found Ley pinging (slightly overdefensive). Voting for the most scummy read at hand at the point.
• I believed that pressuring him would get some reactions from him that would help getting a better read on him.
• I believed that the train would get reactions from others as well, for instance, the most basic ones would be
  • who leaves the train (and their reasons for it)
  • would someone place a 6th vote, how and why
• essentially starting the game for real right there

In short, I liked where this train was going.

 

 

How come you say this now and not at the time, wouldn't that be the time to say it? 

[csarmi]

The mafia wouldn't know who was cop, and I didn't say they did. Ley was pressured and revealed, he could have revealed anything, but unfortunately it was cop. he could have been doc, watcher etc...or vanilla, but every reveal is more useful to Mafia (they most likely know if they are telling the truth), we just have to guess and see if there is a cc. 

 

I agree he does need to try to adopt a less-reactive style, however he is still young and this is not like turning a switch off. he's already done it on the sign up thread, so people could easily see what was going to happen. But to blame him totally is a little naive.

Nice. Please note that Talya never assumes (not even as a second thought, or just as a hypothesis) that Ley could be maffia. This is wrong for two reasons:

• As per the quotes above, she doesn't claim she believes him, but she doesn't claim she doesn't believe him either. So she's claiming to be uncertain (or just refuses to take a stance).
• Yea well the only way she could be sure Ley was town - yea you guessed right - if she's maffia

@Talya - it's hard when you know someone's alignment isn't it? Hard to react naturally I take it? Not to mention on a cop claim that you wouldn't like to validate. Hard stuff.

[csarmi]

@Talya - I won't go down the "let's post inline coloured replies" route. I'll react to point 5 - you should be voting because talk is cheap.

As for your other post - no, that wouldn't be the right time. For one, it should be fairly obvious. Also, spelling it out defeats its own purpose? It's not like someone hidden the fact that it was the L-3 vote now, right?

[Niniel]

Vote Count

 

RTE (1): Des

 

Ley (1):  Darthe

 

Darthe (1): Lenlo

 

Csarmi (1): NotBob

 

Lenlo (1): Csarmi

 

Basel (4): Ed, Turin, Cloud, Ley

 

Not voting: Dice, Talya,  Pralaya, RTE, Via,  Basel

 

 

With 15 players alive it takes 8 to lynch. 

 

Deadline is Friday 9 PM CET. (GMT +1)

 

[Talya]

 

The mafia wouldn't know who was cop, and I didn't say they did. Ley was pressured and revealed, he could have revealed anything, but unfortunately it was cop. he could have been doc, watcher etc...or vanilla, but every reveal is more useful to Mafia (they most likely know if they are telling the truth), we just have to guess and see if there is a cc. 

 

I agree he does need to try to adopt a less-reactive style, however he is still young and this is not like turning a switch off. he's already done it on the sign up thread, so people could easily see what was going to happen. But to blame him totally is a little naive.

Nice. Please note that Talya never assumes (not even as a second thought, or just as a hypothesis) that Ley could be maffia. This is wrong for two reasons:

• As per the quotes above, she doesn't claim she believes him, but she doesn't claim she doesn't believe him either. So she's claiming to be uncertain (or just refuses to take a stance).
• Yea well the only way she could be sure Ley was town - yea you guessed right - if she's maffia

@Talya - it's hard when you know someone's alignment isn't it? Hard to react naturally I take it? Not to mention on a cop claim that you wouldn't like to validate. Hard stuff.

 

 

Sorry csarmi, really don't get this, I was answering someone else on what could have happened, so it's out of context for starters. You say I'm claiming to be uncertain, please show me someone who is certain about Ley, the only thing that makes me think he is more likely to be town is because of the votes on him, unless all 6 votes were town votes. Hence there is doubt in my mind and it will stay there.

 

This sounds to me like you are going through my words and twisting round, oh wait, didn't you accuse me of doing that.

[csarmi]

My main point is that you claim you're uncertain about Ley's claim (fine so far) but then in your possibilities there's no mention of Ley possibly being outed as maffia. Is that cause I'm taking this out of context?

[Leyrann]

Just for the record, I'll spell out why I voted Leyrann, just to show how things are not black and white. "I liked where this train was going" for a few reasons:

• I found Ley pinging (slightly overdefensive). Voting for the most scummy read at hand at the point.
• I believed that pressuring him would get some reactions from him that would help getting a better read on him.
• I believed that the train would get reactions from others as well, for instance, the most basic ones would be
  • who leaves the train (and their reasons for it)
  • would someone place a 6th vote, how and why
• essentially starting the game for real right there

In short, I liked where this train was going.

 

 

I had to reveal as Cop because you wanted to start the game for real. Is that REALLY worth it? The game would start anyways. In fact, if someone is at 4 votes, it already has pretty much started.

[csarmi]

No you didn't have to reveal. I'm not responsible for your bad play.

 

It's all about you, you and you again.

Now what about addign something of relevance to the game? Scumhunt, you know? What do you think about Via? NotBob? Talya? Basel? Cloud? Csarmi?

 

Surely you have some opinions?

[csarmi]

Night all.

[Talya]

@Talya - I won't go down the "let's post inline coloured replies" route. I'll react to point 5 - you should be voting because talk is cheap.

As for your other post - no, that wouldn't be the right time. For one, it should be fairly obvious. Also, spelling it out defeats its own purpose? It's not like someone hidden the fact that it was the L-3 vote now, right?

 

Sorry, but I can't seem to work out how to split the posts, it never works for me, so that was easier. I try not to do it too often.

 

My main point is that you claim you're uncertain about Ley's claim (fine so far) but then in your possibilities there's no mention of Ley possibly being outed as maffia. Is that cause I'm taking this out of context?

 

I just assumed that by me saying I don't totally believe him, means I must doubt him being town, so he could be mafia, just didn't think it needed saying, as being in doubt means I don't know whether he is town or mafia, unless of course he is town claiming cop when he isn't, but I don't want to go there...argghh!

[Talya]

okay, had a quick read through:

 

It all starts with a few joke votes...csarmi on cloud, Via on Basel, Ley votes RTE for being last on the list. 

 

Pral does his impression of Des and Ley takes it seriously, I see a bit of wind up here from Pral.

 

Cloud is then the first to vote Ley, which he does for Ley's rules which he doesn't want to read!

 

Lenlo then says thet Pral's post was suspicious but still felt like doing a joke vote on Darthe. So the game has started and he puts a joke vote on, even though he has started to play. it maybe worth noting later, but doesn't say one way or the other at this point. 

 

Basel noted this 

Turin come in and votes Ley - reasoning, because Ley thought RTE was last to join the game. hmmm...odd vote, now the second vote on Ley and not sure if this is a joke vote, or a pretty poor excuse for a vote. But soon after Darthe votes Ley out and accuses him of being over defensive. This where the rules had been talked about quite a bit, so this is now putting pressure on Ley. Using the kind of things that Ley says in his rules as a reason for voting. Are we surprised at the reaction? Darther reveals who he is and that he is town. 

not bob votes csarmi - can't remember the reason..blast!

 

Csarmi says that a cop view won't work on him on Night 1, why say this? it looks at bit suspicious now that we know Ley is the Cop. I then start thinking they could be working together. a note to keep. 

Des then joins in by voting Ley and asks him why he defends so much - what are the chances of Darthe and Des being on the same team again? this is why I thought that pressure was put on Ley on purpose. 

Csarmi 'likes this train' and votes Ley, he is the 5th vote. to me if there are two mafia on this train i'm more likely to think Des and Darthe, I don't think csarmi would say that if he was in the mafia team and it was putting Ley L-3. 

Ley votes csarmi, a bit of an OMGUS vote, by looking at it.

 

Des says he has reads on Ley and Lenlo

 

Basel the uses the overreacting and hyperdefensive attitude wording for his vote on Ley, this is the third time, so puts him with Des and Darthe. 

RTE says that he remembers Ley playing this way. 

 

Ley then reveals

 

Eventually they all unvote and then Basel is voted for. I can't quite see what Cloud and Ley say when they voted him, but I might have missed it, I reread it and couldn't quite make it out. Turin and Ed vote Basel as well and saw his 6th vote on Ley as a bit suspicious. 

 

Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to check what happened and get it straight in my mind. 

 

Rereading it, Des, Darthe and Basel look most suspicious for those votes on Ley, mainly because of the wording they used. (not saying they are all mafia, but I think at least one could be.) 

 

People that haven't said much and I would like to hear more from are Via, Turin and dice. 

[Leyrann]

No you didn't have to reveal. I'm not responsible for your bad play.

 

It's all about you, you and you again.

Now what about addign something of relevance to the game? Scumhunt, you know? What do you think about Via? NotBob? Talya? Basel? Cloud? Csarmi?

 

Surely you have some opinions?

 

Yeah sure, I shouldn't have revealed. I should just have let myself get lynched within 36 hours and then see everyone shout at me "why didn't you reveal". That works.

 

And I don't really get to "thinking about others" if everyone is constantly pressuring me, with or without reason (and you are currently doing it without reason. I claimed cop, and I'm not seeing a counterclaim, so maybe you can give me a few days? Just two or three?).

[Leyrann]

"it looks at bit suspicious now that we know Ley is the Cop"

 

I'm sorry, Talya, but that sounds a bit TOO convinced to me. I haven't had any chance to prove myself, and I think there are quite a lot of players who wouldn't instantly counterclaim a fake Cop claim, but first consider the consequences. Like, is it worth trading yourself for one mafia, or should you try to get a mafia read on someone, and then get both out one after another? You're no doubt in my top three by now. Basel is still #1 though.

 

"I can't quite see what Cloud and Ley say when they voted him"

 

This post is what is scummy about him.

[Talya]

Oh you know what I meant, I'm tired and that was a long post, I meant, now that you have claimed. But I see what you mean, lol. 

 

As for your link, I know I read it and can't see what is scummy about it, that is all. He's saying you were fast lynched because you were defensive, and said that he couldn't believe csarmi saying that L-2 wasn't nearly lynched, two different things, so I can't see it, could you explain it a bit more please

[Leyrann]

He first puts me at L-2 (within 24 hours after the game started, and with, I think, about 72, maybe 96 hours to go), on page 5, above all, and then he continues to talk about how L-2 is REALLY close to a lynch, and how two mafia could easily jump in and end that poor townie. Which I agree, but I don't put someone at L-2 that early.

 

It's a bit like he's doing something, then he's saying how it's very, very, very bad to do that at that moment.

[ed2funy]

Salamander does seem to be twisting Tal's words a bit. If you doubt the veracity of a "town" claim (because Cop would be Town), then you think there is a possibility that person could be mafia, however small.

Salamander, don't even try with that pile of fly food. You trying to give reasoning for your vote WAY AFTER the fact is just ridiculous.
Anyone can throw a vote to bandwagon and then come back later and say it was obvious and listen to these really great reasons I just couldn't say before.

You telling Talya that she shouldn't have assumed people would how Ley would react is highly hypocritical with you trying to say people should have assumed to know your reasoning.
I call a complete lie on that.

 

 

Oi. Coming back to HERE.

[Turin Turambar]

First my Ley vote was a joke. I have been working long days the past two and haven't had much time. Shorter days rest of the week so will attempt to be more active. current thoughts.

 

Basel: (my vote) Put Ley to L-2 while echoing/bandwagonning/sheeping Darthe and Des with the overdefensive angle. Leyrann is ALWAYS overdefensive. Sort of Like Basel himself can be. the comment that He thought that it was easy for Ley to be lynched at that point is also a bit telling to me. I don't think we even have a deadline yet (MOD is there a deadline?) So why rush to lynch anyone on Day 1? especially with no real evidence. His reason for voting is reactions to pressure from a player that is almost assured to react in that manner.

 

Csarmi: the continued banging away at Ley is not sitting well. calling his reveal bad play is out of line IMO. That is a situation where Ley can't really win. He either claims or he doesn't. If he waits to get to L-1, it is possible that he still gets hammered before anyone can unvote if mafia were lying in wait. If he claims right then you all berate him for claiming too soon and putting himself at risk. There is the possibility that He is faking but if he is he will be found out soon enough. 

 

Ley: Is either COP or is mafia that will be discovered sooner or later. We will see what results he is able to give. If faking then he will slip sooner or later.

 

Darthe: I didn't really like seeing him follow me onto Ley which seemed to really create the landslide. Darthe was your vote more due to what Ley was saying or more about the "list"?

 

Talya: Not a big fan of the recap things post unless that was for note taking purposes. The holding back a vote is a bit odd to me as well. If you think someone is mafia go ahead and vote. Otherwise it is just a nudge to me. 

 

RTE: nudged at Ley but also tried to reassure him by saying don't bother revealing. then questioned the legality of his role claim. It flet like he was trying to set up defending someone he KNEW would flip town. Then a hail mary play to see if he could get him MODKILLED. not liking that very much.

 

Via: interesting list. Not sure what she is trying to say with it. that there might be 1-2 mafia on both those that voted Ley and those that didn't? Or 2-3 of those that didn't actually by her process. Trying to decide if she has extra information to base her ideas on. The rest of her posts were mostly fluff so this one seems out of place. Really torn cause haven't played many games with her.

 

Lenlo:  not liking what looks like a parked vote on Darthe. Mafia Len rarely cast a serious vote early. At least that is my take

 

Pray: Awesome Despo impersonation. not much else. 

 

Despo : looking pretty clean ATM. which is odd. We will see when he gets back from holiday I guess.

 

Dice: Very quiet. Agree that need to hear more from him. waiting for his moment of insanity. 

 

Ed: crazy Eddie trying to draw the PR. I never know what Ed is doing. 

 

NotBob: few comments make some sense. I put him in similar category as Ed. Not exactly sure what he does. more posts needed.

 

 

Current mafia reads:

Basel, CSarmi, 

 

suspicious:

Tayla, RTE, Darthe, Via, Lenlo

 

 

Ley, currenty leaning town. If CSarmi flips mafia will be more convinced Ley is town.

 

Everyone else is currently middling or insufficient evidence to make reasonable read.

[Basel Gill]

I think the Basel vote to move Ley to L-2 to be the most sketchy of all the votes on the Ley train. It was a bit too early to go there with out a blatant slip from Ley.

IMO Ley's superdefensive play prior to his reveal was a slip in itself. At the time, he was behaving massively scummy, and I voted him for it. As things are now, he's a claimed cop with no CC, but that didn't apply when I made my vote, since he hadn't claimed then.

[Turin Turambar]

Ley is always superdefensive. Heck the list of rules in itself is indication of that. I would be shocked if Ley was ever cool under fire. 

 

I think putting him to L-2 was too far for that point in the game. Especially with no deadline(I think). 

 

Basel, did you know your vote put him to L-2? were you not worried he could get blind hammered?

[ed2funy]

Hahahahahahahaha

 

Talya she wants to hear more from Turin.

Turin said Mage is hearing too much from Talya.

 

[Lenlo]

 

 

Lenlo:  not liking what looks like a parked vote on Darthe. Mafia Len rarely cast a serious vote early. At least that is my take

 

Len in general rarely casts a serious vote early, but atleast your thinking.

[Turin Turambar]

 @ Ed

 

 

nice reply Leno, Not a denial tho...  

[ed2funy]

Basel keeps digging. Lololol

 

Turin, excellent. No one should know what I'm doing. Ever.