[Spoilers]Game of Thrones Season Three

[SinisterDeath]

Honor skips a generation?

[AesSedaiGuy]

She may have married into the Frey's, but I thought Old Nan was a Free Folk?

[SinisterDeath]

Maybe she was Rheganar's Grandfathers nanny, and had to 'babyset' a teenage walder frey a few times before she went over to the starks?

[Red2111]

*trys to picture a teenage Walder Freya nd throws up a bit in her mouth*

 

 

thanks SD

[Nolder]

[Red2111]

okay so i'm half way through GoT's now.  in fact Danny just got to the old crones.

 

 

first I want to say.  h8 u Cat.  if it wasn't for you abducting Tyrion none of this would have happened.  just couldn't listen to your husband about getting your sorry ass back up to Winterfell could you, you stubborn bitch.  and right after all that internal talk of "it can't come to war" bullshanks.

 

literally, h8 u; almost as much as Cersie.

 

 

that said. I know what Danny will be doing next book.   just read a prophecy from the old crones that say one day all the Khals will be renited under the Mother.   so imo, Danny will be filling that prophecy, riding all over the Dothraki Sea, killing Khals and taking their hordes for her own and telling them to go wait for her at the Mother.

 

cause her and Drogon are beast like that.

[Agitel]

Cat really gets the blame from a lot of fans for abducting Tyrion, hate that I think is undeserved. For everything she knows, the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, are plotting against the king, threw her son from a window and broke his back, and then tried to assassinate him. Only one of those is actually false, and how is she to know that Tyrion isn't complicit in his family's actions? The blame for the current distrust between House Stark and House Lannister lies with Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish, for killing Jon Arryn and sending that deceitful letter to Cat. Cat has a good mind, but can be rash. She was rash in abducting Tyrion, but so was Jaime in pushing Bran from the window and for harassing and injuring the Warden of the North and the Lord of Winterfell in the streets. Even then, it would not have come to war had Joffrey not gone off script and taken Ned's head. And let's not forget Ned's foolhardiness in telling Cersei what he knew, which made her move to make Robert's death happen. Then him ignoring both Renly and Littlefinger's offer for help to secure the realm (and unlike in the show, Renly was NOT asking to be made king at this time). Then him failing to tell the public the truth when he had his chance, instead choosing to lie. Cat may have abducted Tyrion, but Lord Tywin was the one who then started a war against the Riverlands right after with no politicking first. There are so many things that went wrong, so many steps along the way. Cat doesn't deserve the venom she gets for it. Jaime, Tywin, Lysa, Petyr, and Joffrey deserve so much more blame for actually starting this war.

[Nolder]

Did Tywin attack the Riverlands? I thought that was Gregor Clegane gone "rogue", at least at first.

[Red2111]

it was the Mountain attacking Riverlands, but at Tywins orders.  the Mountain fled Kingslanding after the Hands Tourney, to avoid the consequences of his actions in disobedience of the King and Kings Peace.

 

 

Agitel, you give Cat too little Credit, and Jamie too much.

 

1st off, up until Cat abducts Tyrion, no one was making a move on this.  Ned is still vetting his suspicions; Tywin & Jamie are none the wiser, and Cerscie and co are on edge waiting for Neds move.  Cat's actions are the CATALYST (event which sets into motion) of this war.

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Jamie wouldnt have attacked Ned.

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Ned wouldn't have threatened Cersie and showed his hand too soon; thereby forcing her to speed up the assassination on Robert.

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Tywin would have stayed at Calstery Rock and not attacked the Riverlands in retribution.

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Neds leg wouldn't have been injured and he would have left Kingslanding, thereby avoiding the loss of his head.

 

 

Ned instructed Cat to go back to Winterfell and raise the banners and send word from there; not to taken Tyrion into custody if she saw him.  he told her to keep her head down and get back home.  infact, i'm at a total loss as to why Cat felt she needed to abduct Tyrion at all.  it was a rash, spur of the moment thought.  she gives no logic for it, other than striking at opportunity.  infact, had the Signer not called out to Tyrion and Tyrion not discovered her, she would have went on her merry way.

 

 

but the fact remains, the catalyst of this entire war can be laid at Cats feet and her "rash" decission of aducting Tyrion.

 

 

and i dispute who is truely at fault for Bran.  yes Jamie pushed him out of the window, but he did so to protect his family because in reality the boy woudln't have kept his mouth shut about what he saw.  Bran was a Stark, Starks are well known for their honor and inabilty to tell lies. 

 

the person who is at fault for Bran, is Cersie

 

 

as she's the one that insisted they meet at that tower while the king was off hunting.  just as it was Cersie who started the entire love affiar between herself and Jamie.

 

 

 

as for who killed Jon Arryn

 

 

we learn that this is Lysa.   Jon was goign to send Robert to the Lannisters and Lysa didn't want to be parted from her son.  so she killed her husband and fled Kingslanding.

 

 

 

as for Brans Assasination

 

 

its Joffery.  Tyrion woudl never bet against his family and the dagger was one when Jamie lost agaisnt Loras in a joust.  Jamie tells Tyrion striaght up that if he were going to kill the boy, he'd do it himself.  infact, i believe Joff confesses sending the assassin to Tyrion.

 

 

 

as for the blame laying at Lysa and Littlefingers feet, i can conceed that.  as i'm still confused as to why those two did what they did.  Lysa with her letter (perhaps to give validity to the rumor of the Lannisters killing Jon?) and Littlefinger with his claim of the Imp winnign the dagger and betting agaisnt Jamie (perhaps Littlefinger just liked to sow chaos, or hoped that it woudl cause Neds death so he could then wed Cat?)

 

 

but i digress.  while Lysa and Cersie's actions can lay claim securing the Starks in the looming Civil War.  Cat's abducting Tyrion is the "Fort Sumpter" of Westros's Civil War.

 

(Fort Sumpter is the Catalyst of the American Civil War, for those who aren't up on their American History)

[MasterAblar]

 

as for the blame laying at Lysa and Littlefingers feet, i can conceed that.  as i'm still confused as to why those two did what they did.  Lysa with her letter (perhaps to give validity to the rumor of the Lannisters killing Jon?) and Littlefinger with his claim of the Imp winnign the dagger and betting agaisnt Jamie (perhaps Littlefinger just liked to sow chaos, or hoped that it woudl cause Neds death so he could then wed Cat?)

 

 

Remember Littlefinger's philosophy?

 

"Chaos is a ladder".

[Nolder]

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Ned wouldn't have threatened Cersie and showed his hand too soon; thereby forcing her to speed up the assassination on Robert.

 

I don't believe this. Once Ned discovered the king had been deceived and his children weren't really his he was obligated to tell him. Honor and mercy for her children also obligated Ned to give Cersei a chance to flee because he knew how angry Robert would be. None of that has anything to do with Cat abducting Tyrion.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Ned wouldn't have threatened Cersie and showed his hand too soon; thereby forcing her to speed up the assassination on Robert.

 

I don't believe this. Once Ned discovered the king had been deceived and his children weren't really his he was obligated to tell him. Honor and mercy for her children also obligated Ned to give Cersei a chance to flee because he knew how angry Robert would be. None of that has anything to do with Cat abducting Tyrion.

 

Cat abducting Tyrion, gave the Lanister's legitimacy into claiming Ned & His wife as traitors. Ned accuses Cersie of something so vile. And than Cat kidnaps Tyrion.

Given the chain of events. And the fact that Robert went on a hunting trip, his assassination, was just all prime for pinning it all on Ned & Cat. Because lets face it. That's what Cersie needed. Someone to pin it on. And while I don't think they've ever said Ned killed Robert. They did try to claim Ned was trying to take the throne. (eluding that they think he had Robert killed in an accident.)

[Red2111]

 

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Ned wouldn't have threatened Cersie and showed his hand too soon; thereby forcing her to speed up the assassination on Robert.

 

I don't believe this. Once Ned discovered the king had been deceived and his children weren't really his he was obligated to tell him. Honor and mercy for her children also obligated Ned to give Cersei a chance to flee because he knew how angry Robert would be. None of that has anything to do with Cat abducting Tyrion.

 

 

 

um no.

 

 

had Cat not abducted Tyrion; Ned would have never been attacked by Jamie's party and would have left Kingslanding as he planned to even after visiting the whore house with Littlefinger.

 

 

Ned would have never been re-made Hand, would not have been stuck in Kingslanding for another week, nor would he have continued to pour over that tome of lineages which led him to the conclusion of Joffery being a bastard.  infact, if you go back and read, Ned was tryign to tell Robert the night he woke up and Robert re-made him Hand; right before Robert left to go on his hunt. 

 

err go, Cats rash decision directly led to Ned threatening Cersie. Neds entire reason for telling Cersie was two fold.  honor driven as you stated, but aslo as a threat to attempt to prevent her from assassinating Robert on the Hunt, which he feared given the Spider telling him they had planned an assasination on him durning the Tourney.  the later motive is given credit as he wrotethe letters to both Stannis and Renly after the King was injured during the hunt.

 

also, had it not been for the abduction of Tyrion, the Mountain would not have been unleashed on Riverun, and Ned wouldn't have been attacked; which wouldn' have put him in a spot where he felt he had to tell the King sooner rather than later about his suspicions, in order to prevent more deaths and stop the budding war.

[Agitel]

Martin has said that this picture best (but not perfectly) represents his vision of the Iron Throne.

 

 

That's the Iron Throne as painted by the amazing Marc Simonetti (and if you haven't gotten his 2013 Ice & Fire calendar, better hurry, the year's half over) for the upcoming concordance, THE WORLD OF ICE & FIRE. It's a rough, not a final version, so what you see in the book will be more polished. But Marc has come closer here to capturing the Iron Throne as I picture it than any other artist to tackle it. From now on, THIS will be the reference I give to every other artist tackling a throne room scene. This Iron Throne is massive. Ugly. Assymetric. It's a throne made by blacksmiths hammering together half-melted, broken, twisted swords, wrenched from the hands of dead men or yielded up by defeated foes... a symbol of conquest... it has the steps I describe, and the height. From on top, the king dominates the throne room. And there are thousands of swords in it, not just a few.

This Iron Throne is scary. And not at all a comfortable seat, just as Aegon intended.

[OptimusPrime]

Martin has said that this picture best (but not perfectly) represents his vision of the Iron Throne.

 

 

That's the Iron Throne as painted by the amazing Marc Simonetti (and if you haven't gotten his 2013 Ice & Fire calendar, better hurry, the year's half over) for the upcoming concordance, THE WORLD OF ICE & FIRE. It's a rough, not a final version, so what you see in the book will be more polished. But Marc has come closer here to capturing the Iron Throne as I picture it than any other artist to tackle it. From now on, THIS will be the reference I give to every other artist tackling a throne room scene. This Iron Throne is massive. Ugly. Assymetric. It's a throne made by blacksmiths hammering together half-melted, broken, twisted swords, wrenched from the hands of dead men or yielded up by defeated foes... a symbol of conquest... it has the steps I describe, and the height. From on top, the king dominates the throne room. And there are thousands of swords in it, not just a few.

 

This Iron Throne is scary. And not at all a comfortable seat, just as Aegon intended.

 

My respect for George just levelled up to 20

[Red2111]

almost done with my re-read of the first book.  found something else interesting a few weeks ago that i missed on my first go.

 

 

first off, Ned didn't tell Cersie to threaten her, nor for his honor.  he told her for the sake of her kids, because he didn't want what happened to Rheagars children to happen again.  so you lot are wrong about Neds motives.

 

also, Cersie didn't move on Ned until after Sansa ran off and told her that Ned was sending them back to Winterfell.  Cersie didn't make her move because she feared the country would believe Neds ace in the whole, she saw him removing hostages (Ayra and Sansa).  she knew that if his daughters were safely away, Ned wouldn't act cautiously and she would have no leverage over him

[BFG]

...

 

if not for Cat abducting Tyrion, Neds leg wouldn't have been injured and he would have left Kingslanding, thereby avoiding the loss of his head.

 

 

...

 

If Ned had left Kings Landing then he'd have run straight into the trap set up by Tywin and the Mountain and either died there or been taken hostage (remember when we meet the Brotherhood without Banners they talk about losing almost all their men in an ambush at the ford).  He'd have likely still ended up in a similar situation, but may have made it to the Wall.

[Red2111]

Ned was goign to take a ship out of Kingslanding BFG, stopping by Dragonstone to talk to Stannis before going onto Winterfell.   so no, he woudlnt' have ran into a trap by Tywin; more liekly he would have had to deal with Greyjoy, as by the time he woudl have left Stannis's place, Greyjoy would have been in open revolt and Theon would be back with the Iron Born.

[BFG]

Ah, I meant that the only reason that he sent Beric in charge of the capture or kill the Mountain, was because his leg was broken, ergo if his leg hadn't been broken he would have led it and been caught in the ambush (which had been designed to capture him). 

 

But you're right, I thought you meant the one he was going to escape with the girls on before Sansa betrays him, I'd forgotten the earlier ship.  Thanks

[Red2111]

nah, Ned wouldnt have went even at peak health.  he was the Hand, and the King was out hunting.  as the Hand, it was his Duty to oversee the kingdom while the King is away.

[BFG]

This time I have it right, I'm sure:)

 

 

"The First Men believed that the judge who called for death should wield the sword, and in the north we hold to that still.  I mislike sending another to do my killing... yet it seems I have no choice" He gestured to his broken leg.

 

Tywin was expecting it as well, so it's not out of character

[Red2111]

i dont have my book with me.  but i'm almost posative i recall the small council mentioning that the Kings Hand couldn't go off to do the kings justice, that thats the reason teh king has knights, the kingsgaurd and a headsman reminded him of his duty as Hand since the King was away.

 

 

so i still affirm that even if Ned didn't have a broken leg; his honor and sens eof duty to his station as Hand, woudl have prevented him from goign after the Mountain himself.

[Lilbaz]

He killed the hand of the king. Execution.

[Red2111]

lilbaz can you explain the context of your statement?

[Lilbaz]

Tywin was the hand of the king, tyrion killed him. I'm guessing it would be considered treason, whatever the motivation.

The punishment for treason is execution.

 

Sorry should have quoted the post regarding tyrion.