[Spoilers]Game of Thrones Season Three

[SinisterDeath]

This thread, is for the discussion of Season 3 of the Game of Thrones, and will include heavy spoilers through out. For non Spoilers go Here.

You have been warned.

These spoilers will include things that will happen, so if you enter this thread, and spoil something that has  yet to happen in the Show, its your own damned fault.

 

The only spoiler rule, is that if you see an Episode of the Game of Thrones, before it Airs, you must spoiler code it. Book spoilers are entirely free of the Spoiler Code rule. However if you want to continue to spoiler code the Book Spoilers, feel free to.

Guess now is the time to make a new one for this season.

 

My initial thoughts:

 

Ygritte is still hot as hell. That is all.

Yes. Yes she is.

Thought the episode kinda blew actually.

But I'm really only in it for both weddings.

[Tsukibana]

@Nolder: before she met Jaqen, I expected her to become a pawn. Seeing how Sansa was acting, I honestly didn't think GRR could do a strong female character without

making her a sociopath. Even Catelyn seemed defined by her grief, rather than being strong in her own way.

[Nolder]

 

@Nolder: before she met Jaqen, I expected her to become a pawn. Seeing how Sansa was acting, I honestly didn't think GRR could do a strong female character without

making her a sociopath. Even Catelyn seemed defined by her grief, rather than being strong in her own way.

 

 

Ummm I'm not sure if you've read the books or not but if you haven't...well all I can say is you've got a long road ahead of you

 

[Tsukibana]

Oh for the love of... how the hell is that a spoiler?? everyone who watched the first episode should know that I'm talking about Cersei, especially since Jaqen's story line

has already passed.

 

Concerning books: I have yet to read DwD.

[Rufae]

I think one of the most intriguing is Sansa.

 

 

As of the last we saw of her, she was going to married to a guy in the Eyrie for s short time until Littlefinger can safely marry her. This means that she would have connections to rule over the Eyrie and Harrenhal thanks to Littlefinger. Then she has hereditary connection to Riverrun through her mother, Catelyn. And to Winterfell naturally. With the banner of the King of the North raised, that would put a lot of lands under her leige.

 

Anyone look at a map lately, that is over half the continent potentially under her control if she plays her cards right. Since she is being taught state-craft by Littlefinger I dare say she will have the right cards to achieve this. 

 

That is not even getting into the implicationsof her marriage to Tyrion, the blood heir to the Lannister fortune and royal ties. 

 

Right now, she is the best set character of them all.

 

[Red2111]

alright, for the love of the creator can we get seperate threads already?  these spoiler codes be too much work for a fun convo!   

 

@ Tyler - correction, Ned decided to forsake honor for the game too late in the game.  iirc, he did go back on his word and lie about Joffs lineage for the sake of his life and his daughters lives right before they lopped off his head.

 

i agree though, hes wasn't a rube, he was just an honest man who valued his word and honor more than political advantage.

 

 

 

 

okay Nol, i conceed on Tyrion.  atleast on Sheas murder.  Tywin needed to be killed and diserved it, for the exact reason Tyrion kills him.

 

Sansa's story line, though the single handedly most annoying part of the series, is needed for the plot.  it shows that being an evil SOB isn't the only way to survive; sheer dumnb luck and niavity plus beauty will get you somewhere as well, so long as your kind hearted *gags*  as for her becomming this bad ass ruler Sam seems to think; personally i hope she walks off a cliff cause she's too blind to see the road end; after ofcourse she guts Littlefinger from stem to stern.  even with the teachings that Littlefinger is giving her, Sansa is still too trusting and niave to come of much.  she'll throw her lot in with the wrong man and get swept up in love nad allow herself to be dominated.  she just doesn't have it in her to be a strong independent female.

 

 

Jon is not dead, the prolouge in DwD made it plainly clear that wargs will body jump to a connected animal if death takes them.  the Red Lady being there also assures Jon being brought back from the dead and you're fabricating the decapitaiton bit SD; Jon blacked out at about the 50th stab wound, we know nothing after that.  and as Nol said, until we see a body, death is not certain.  we learned that with the Mountain.

 

 

 

 

i think i touched on everythign i wanted oto.  too many damn spoiler tags i tell you 

 

 

 

 

For the ladies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Backside alert.

 

*beats her leg, wolf whistles and cat calls* 

 

though i agree with Cindy, front side?

 

 

Some one said that Sansa is doing the best of everyone. She goes to king's landing with no political clout, a father who is a rube when it comes

to politics, and somehow, she is still alive. How many others could do that? People drop like flies around her, and she still goes wiht the flow.

 

rule #1 of any thriller/horror movie.  you lose your virginity and you die.

 

 Sansa's still a virgin

 

 

/it is known

[Luciena]

I think one of the most intriguing is Sansa.

 

 

As of the last we saw of her, she was going to married to a guy in the Eyrie for s short time until Littlefinger can safely marry her. This means that she would have connections to rule over the Eyrie and Harrenhal thanks to Littlefinger. Then she has hereditary connection to Riverrun through her mother, Catelyn. And to Winterfell naturally. With the banner of the King of the North raised, that would put a lot of lands under her leige.

 

Anyone look at a map lately, that is over half the continent potentially under her control if she plays her cards right. Since she is being taught state-craft by Littlefinger I dare say she will have the right cards to achieve this. 

 

That is not even getting into the implicationsof her marriage to Tyrion, the blood heir to the Lannister fortune and royal ties. 

 

Right now, she is the best set character of them all.

 

Sansa looks too much of a pushover. Maybe I'm into girl power but Aria understood much more of what was going on in the palace than Sansa. Maybe with Littlefinger's tutelage Sansa might become a formidable figure however I doubt it. 

 

As for Eddard I believe he was too honest and even though he tried playing the game it was too late by then. Maybe kind of like Rand going to Cairhien and despite doing nothing whatsoever the whole city literally exploded. (albeit accidentally) 

[Nolder]

Red:

 

Either way you judge Tyrion, by his societies standards or by ours, he murdered Tywin in cold blood. Tywin may be guilty of a lot of things and maybe he did deserve to die. But not like that. That's not justice it's murder. Or, even if you want to paint it in the very best light you can, vigilantism. Either way it wasn't right. I'm reminded of that quote by Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

 

 

Mish: I think part of Sansa's storyline is to become a better person the hardest way a person can. None of the lessons she's going to learn will be easy by a long shot and by the end of it all I expect she may be more like her father than any of his other children. I also think her storyline compliments Arya's in a way. They both face major hardship and while Arya reacts with violence and hatred Sansa...well I don't think we're quite there yet with her but I think she's going to be something else. It's just taking her longer to get there.

[Tsukibana]

Perhaps Sansa becomes a priestess of some kind... *wanders away to muse*

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

Either way you judge Tyrion, by his societies standards or by ours, he murdered Tywin in cold blood. Tywin may be guilty of a lot of things and maybe he did deserve to die. But not like that. That's not justice it's murder. Or, even if you want to paint it in the very best light you can, vigilantism. Either way it wasn't right. I'm reminded of that quote by Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

 

 

From Tyrions perspective, his father wanted him dead. He set him up for the murder of his grandson. His father abused him, mentally, and physically. Purposely killed his first wife, after having her raped by all the guards. By societies standards, his father deserved to die. And at that point in the novel, Tyrion was a wanted man, dead or alive. He was scheduled to be killed. So killing his father for setting him up? Yea, that doesn't make him a cold blooded killer IMO. At least, not when it involves taking someone down who was far worse. (Like Jaime with the previous king. That's actually one of the few things I liked about his character.)

 

[Nolder]

 

 

 

Either way you judge Tyrion, by his societies standards or by ours, he murdered Tywin in cold blood. Tywin may be guilty of a lot of things and maybe he did deserve to die. But not like that. That's not justice it's murder. Or, even if you want to paint it in the very best light you can, vigilantism. Either way it wasn't right. I'm reminded of that quote by Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

 

 

From Tyrions perspective, his father wanted him dead. He set him up for the murder of his grandson. His father abused him, mentally, and physically. Purposely killed his first wife, after having her raped by all the guards. By societies standards, his father deserved to die. And at that point in the novel, Tyrion was a wanted man, dead or alive. He was scheduled to be killed. So killing his father for setting him up? Yea, that doesn't make him a cold blooded killer IMO. At least, not when it involves taking someone down who was far worse. (Like Jaime with the previous king. That's actually one of the few things I liked about his character.)

 

 

 

You don't take justice into your own hands, that's not how civilized people do things. You can make the argument that Tyrion lives in a brutal and corrupt society and that's fine but then in that case we would need to judge him by their standards. He killed his father without taking his grievance to King Tommen or the Queen Regent. Not to mention the completely innocent whore. I'm not saying you should feel bad for Tywin or you shouldn't feel bad for Tyrion. All I'm saying is he is a murderer and there is no way around that. Not everyone who commits a crime is necessarily a bad person.

 

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

 

 

Either way you judge Tyrion, by his societies standards or by ours, he murdered Tywin in cold blood. Tywin may be guilty of a lot of things and maybe he did deserve to die. But not like that. That's not justice it's murder. Or, even if you want to paint it in the very best light you can, vigilantism. Either way it wasn't right. I'm reminded of that quote by Gandalf: "Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

 

 

From Tyrions perspective, his father wanted him dead. He set him up for the murder of his grandson. His father abused him, mentally, and physically. Purposely killed his first wife, after having her raped by all the guards. By societies standards, his father deserved to die. And at that point in the novel, Tyrion was a wanted man, dead or alive. He was scheduled to be killed. So killing his father for setting him up? Yea, that doesn't make him a cold blooded killer IMO. At least, not when it involves taking someone down who was far worse. (Like Jaime with the previous king. That's actually one of the few things I liked about his character.)

 

 

 

You don't take justice into your own hands, that's not how civilized people do things. You can make the argument that Tyrion lives in a brutal and corrupt society and that's fine but then in that case we would need to judge him by their standards. He killed his father without taking his grievance to King Tommen or the Queen Regent. Not to mention the completely innocent whore. I'm not saying you should feel bad for Tywin or you shouldn't feel bad for Tyrion. All I'm saying is he is a murderer and there is no way around that. Not everyone who commits a crime is necessarily a bad person.

 

 

 

 

Umm. you miss the point that Tommen is a puppet at this point, and that as a Prisoner, he has no right, he couldn't just 'go see the king' and 'explain himself'. For all effective purposes, he was dead meat. He was already a convict on the way to the headsman.. The only good thing he could do, (because even if he escaped, there was nothing he could actually do aside from being a wanted criminal.) was kill one of the puppet masters.

 

[Nolder]

 

Tommen is still the king and the law of the land. Note that if we're judging Tyrion by his society then his king was fine with executing him. Tommen is not a puppet if he doesn't let himself be and IIRC there were one or two incidents where Tommen stood up for himself and made the decision he wanted to make. Anyway, again, I'm not arguing on behalf of Tywin. That's in a bit of a grey area I'll grant you but Shae was murder plain and simple. Tyrion is a murderer and there is no dancing around that fact.

 

[SinisterDeath]

 

Tommen is still the king and the law of the land. Note that if we're judging Tyrion by his society then his king was fine with executing him. Tommen is not a puppet if he doesn't let himself be and IIRC there were one or two incidents where Tommen stood up for himself and made the decision he wanted to make. Anyway, again, I'm not arguing on behalf of Tywin. That's in a bit of a grey area I'll grant you but Shae was murder plain and simple. Tyrion is a murderer and there is no dancing around that fact.

 

 

 

Tommen Is what.. 7? he still does what mommy says. (well, until she got kidnapped by the church thing that is.)

Eitherway, that stills irrelevant to the fact that Tyrion was going the way of Ned; until he broke out. There was nothing he could have done, to save his life, short of escaping. Nor could he have done anything to catch the real culprit. (whom he had reason to believe was his father, or his sister, given how fast they jumped on him.)

 

[Tsukibana]

Murder

Noun

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

check and check.

[Agitel]

 

Murder

Noun

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

check and check.

 

 

 

Premeditated? Tyrion's actions weren't really premeditated. Though it was murder.

 

[Tsukibana]

 

 

Murder

Noun

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

check and check.

 

 

 

Premeditated? Tyrion's actions weren't really premeditated. Though it was murder.

 

 

 

Shae most definitely was not premeditated, but Tywin was. After all, he did lie in wait..

 

[Agitel]

 

 

 

Murder

Noun

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

check and check.

 

 

 

Premeditated? Tyrion's actions weren't really premeditated. Though it was murder.

 

 

 

Shae most definitely was not premeditated, but Tywin was. After all, he did lie in wait..

 

 

 

 

I don't remember lying in wait. Tyrion went to his father's chambers to confront him about Tysha, hoping to threaten him with a crossbow. I'm not sure Tyrion entered with a plan to kill, I don't think he was really thinking at all after what Jaime told him. He found his father in the privy, and Tyrion was likely even more highly emotional due to Shae and exposing his father's incredible hypocrisy over the issue that Tyrion had just gone to confront him about. I don't know that Tyrion would have killed his father had his father not provoked him. I'm not saying being provoked is an excuse to kill somebody, but Tywin did provoke him then and there.

 

And let's not forget that Tywin had Tyrion's wife gang-raped and deported . . .

 

I'm digressing. I'm not saying Tyrion isn't a murderer, just that killing Tywin wasn't premeditated and Tyrion was in an emotionally charged state at the time. It's not like he left and calmed down and calculated a plan to kill his father.

 

EDIT: Crime of passion. Thanks Red. That's the phrase I was looking for.

 

[Red2111]

siding with SD and Agitel on this one

 

 

 

 

first off Nol, the points Tommen stood his ground on were unimportant issues as far as running state.  they were personal issues and wants akin to

 

"No mummy, i want a BROWN horse, not a WHITE horse"  *stomps foot and has a tantrum*

 

 

in other words, him standing up means two flips because of what he stood up for.  in the important matters, he's still a puppet.  and SD is right, Tyrion was marked for killing Joff, no King after Joff would have given him 2 seconds to hear him out.  the fact that you actually suggest he even go to the Queen Reget (aka Cersie) is more than laughable as she was his main accuser.

 

 

and Agitels points abotu Tyrions mental state at the moment are correct.  he didn't premeditate his fathers deaths, and he didn't lie in wait. if anything, i'd argue hat Shae and Tywins deaths were crimes of passion.

 

he was in love with Shae, he walked in and saw she was sleeping with his father.  people are aquited of "crimes of passion" all the time, and givn the circumstances i'd argue the same aquittal for Tyrion.

 

 

crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant.

 

 

 

so while the action is classified as murder, given the circumsatnces Tyrion would not be found guilty of either crime and woudl be aquitted of the charges.  when your not found guilty of murder, you can no longer be called a murder.

 

err go, Tyrion is also not a Murder.  and especially not a cold blooded murder. 

 

 

edit - lets not forget, not only did Tywin have Tyrions wife gang rapped, discarded like a whore and deported; he also forced Tyrion to watch the entire affiar and participate by being the last and paying her a gold mark afterwards.

 

 

 

[Tsukibana]

After further deliberation, I too agree. It has been awhile since I read those scenes.

[Nolder]

 

Again are we judging by our society or his? I doubt such a thing as a "crime of passion" exists in Westeros and even if it did I don't think it would make a difference where Tyrion is concerned. And if you were to have him stand trial in our world you can spin it however you like, plead insanity even, but you can look at real life cases and see how many men who've committed double murder because their girlfriend cheated on them get off with just a slap on the wrist.

 

[John E. Kelley]

In our world he'd be found guilty of manslaughter most likely, not murder. Serve 7-9.

[Red2111]

 

 

 

Nol your being obtuse.   you set the precedent of judging him by our society by labeling him as Mruderer using our societies defanition of what a Murder is. 

 

if you dont like the outcome that he would have in this society, you being wrong and that he isn't a Murderer; then use Westeros terms to define him, not ours.

 

and as it stands, Murder and what it specifically constitutes has never been clearly defined in that series.  nor can you assume that "crime of passion" is not a ruling that would not happen in that realm.

 

 

 

[Nolder]

Ishy:

 

Not a chance. Unless he took a deal to plead guilty and even then I don't see the prosecution offering it because it's such a solid case.

Choking someone to death and then shooting someone else point blank with a gun crossbow is not manslaughter it's murder.

 

 

Red:

 

Does murder need to be spelled out? This is a fantasy series not a crime novel.

And "murder" is a Westeros term. I'm positive it has been used in the series before.

And yeah if you're going to tell me that I can't call him a murderer because the series never defined what murder is then how do you expect "crime of passion" to fly?

Give it up. He's a murderer. Take him as the loveable anti hero that he is.

 

[SinisterDeath]

Ishy:

 

Not a chance. Unless he took a deal to plead guilty and even then I don't see the prosecution offering it because it's such a solid case.

Choking someone to death and then shooting someone else point blank with a gun crossbow is not manslaughter it's murder.

 

 

Red:

 

Does murder need to be spelled out? This is a fantasy series not a crime novel.

And "murder" is a Westeros term. I'm positive it has been used in the series before.

And yeah if you're going to tell me that I can't call him a murderer because the series never defined what murder is then how do you expect "crime of passion" to fly?

Give it up. He's a murderer. Take him as the loveable anti hero that he is.

 

 

Theres no point in discussing their laws in their society. The very fact that they were accusing him, and going to execute him for a crime he did not commit. Already makes him by their society, a cold blooded killer. The fact that he killed his Father, just, was just Icing on the Cake as far as their society is concerned. What we are discussing, Is our view, of the intimate knowledge of what actually went down. Something no one in Westeros would be privy to.  (hell something we wouldn't actually have knowledge of, in reality either. Given what we know, we can't find Him as a cold blooded killer. By our knowledge of what has happened, and by our laws. The one good thing Tyrion managed to do with his escape, was killing his father. For the good of the realm, something know one there would have known. They will just view him as a freak of nature, that killed his father in cold blood. But they'll never know what a monster his father was, and the future atrocities that he just prevented by killing that man. Tyrion is no more of a cold blooded murderer, than some other characters in this series.