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Barid Bel Medar
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Question regarding imitation of Forsaken.

 

1 - Someone hires Slayer to kill Rand, someone who hides their identity, (I think in WH). Who was it?

 

2 - In KOD, Moridin tells the other forsaken that either sammael or someone imitating him has been sending mydraal and trollocs into the ways. We know from RJ that sammael is dead, so who was pretending to be him, and why?

 

Are 1 and 2 the same person/

 

related to this, prob the same person - who is the glowing person who spoke to Masema, as mentioned in the prologue of TGS? 

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Question regarding imitation of Forsaken.

 

1 - Someone hires Slayer to kill Rand, someone who hides their identity, (I think in WH). Who was it?

 

2 - In KOD, Moridin tells the other forsaken that either sammael or someone imitating him has been sending mydraal and trollocs into the ways. We know from RJ that sammael is dead, so who was pretending to be him, and why?

 

Are 1 and 2 the same person/

 

related to this, prob the same person - who is the glowing person who spoke to Masema, as mentioned in the prologue of TGS? 

1. Lanfear hates Rand at that point and desperately wants him dead. However, Moridin won't let her kill him. So I'd see her as the primary suspect there. In AMoL, we see her send Slayer to kill Rand in the pit of doom, so we do see that she was directing slayer some of the time. 

 

2. Moghedien shows us her POV that she was an expert at imitating other forsaken, which some interpret as a hint that it was Moghedien pretending to be Sammael. Moghedien was under the the control of Moridin at that point and would have been afraid of doing something not approved by him, so she hid as Sammael.

 

3. Graendal had been after Perrin and had numerous plots in Masema's camp going.

Edited by dir ehlef
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I obviously missed something, but where did Rand get the sword that he gave to Tam? He said something to the effect of it came from a "kindred spirit" (sorry, don't have the book with me for exact quote). Who did it come from, what was the significance?

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I obviously missed something, but where did Rand get the sword that he gave to Tam? He said something to the effect of it came from a "kindred spirit" (sorry, don't have the book with me for exact quote). Who did it come from, what was the significance?

I have gotten this one mixed up before(switching Laman's sword) but pretty sure it was Artur Hawkwing's sword "Justice". It was found underneath a submerged statue and given to Rand.

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I obviously missed something, but where did Rand get the sword that he gave to Tam? He said something to the effect of it came from a "kindred spirit" (sorry, don't have the book with me for exact quote). Who did it come from, what was the significance?

I have gotten this one mixed up before(switching Laman's sword) but pretty sure it was Artur Hawkwing's sword "Justice". It was found underneath a submerged statue and given to Rand.

@Suttree The book only says that it was from someone important, did BS say that it was Justice?

 

Here's the quote : TGS A Force of Light

 

He stood, reaching for the sword which leaned against his clothing chest. The black scabbard, with its lacquered red and gold dragon, sparkled in the light. Such a strange weapon those scholars had found beneath the submerged statue. The sword felt so old. Was Rand wearing it today as a symbol of something? A sign, perhaps, that he was riding to battle?

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Will dig for the book quote later but for now:

 

Just a tag on. Someone asked about Rand's new/old sword... the one he's carrying now.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon said it had definitely been seen before, and not in a tapestry. Brandon also DEFINITIVELY stated that we saw it in The Great Hunt. I have a very good feeling that the sword being Justice (which we saw in Artur Hawkwing's hands at Falme) is the right "looney theory" for this one.

FOOTNOTE

It was confirmed by Brandon in an email that the sword is Justice.

INTERVIEW: Feb 12th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Wetlander (Paraphrased)

WETLANDER

Will you confirm now that Rand's sword (received in The Gathering Storm, given to Tam in A Memory of Light) is Hawkwing's sword Justice?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Yes, I can now confirm that. It's also my sword." (But in-world, it's Justice.)

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@suttree, I checked theoryland [ Thanks again for your link there.] and saw those quotes too. Even so, neither of those quotes say that Rand recognized the sword or that he recalled it from Falme.

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@suttree, I checked theoryland [ Thanks again for your link there.] and saw those quotes too. Even so, neither of those quotes say that Rand recognized the sword or that he recalled it from Falme.

As I said above I would look for the quote in book.

 

TGS Ch. 35

Rand reached down, touching the sword he wore at his waist. It was the curved one, with the scabbard of black, painted with the twisting dragon, red and gold. For more reasons than one, it made him think of the last time he had been in Falme.

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@suttree, I checked theoryland [ Thanks again for your link there.] and saw those quotes too. Even so, neither of those quotes say that Rand recognized the sword or that he recalled it from Falme.

As I said above I would look for the quote in book.

 

TGS Ch. 35

>Rand reached down, touching the sword he wore at his waist. It was the curved one, with the scabbard of black, painted with the twisting dragon, red and gold. For more reasons than one, it made him think of the last time he had been in Falme.

 

:-) Thanks Suttree, I can't believe I missed that one.

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I hope this is the right thread for these.

 

1. In the black tower Pevara(I think was the name) was asked to to loosen the captive's weave so he could hear. Afterwards she was asked if he could hear them and she said no. Is this a writing mistake?

2. How in the world could a gateway catch baelfire? the only thing I can think of is the weave was very weak.

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I hope this is the right thread for these.

 

1. In the black tower Pevara(I think was the name) was asked to to loosen the captive's weave so he could hear. Afterwards she was asked if he could hear them and she said no. Is this a writing mistake?

No, they were playing him (letting him think he was overhearing stuff they didn't want him to hear when actually the scene was staged and he heard only what they wanted him to hear and nothing more).

2. How in the world could a gateway catch baelfire? the only thing I can think of is the weave was very weak.

Balefire is as capable as anything else of passing through a Gateway - simply put an open Gateway in the path of the balefire and it will pass through it.

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Question regarding imitation of Forsaken.

 

1 - Someone hires Slayer to kill Rand, someone who hides their identity, (I think in WH). Who was it?

 

2 - In KOD, Moridin tells the other forsaken that either sammael or someone imitating him has been sending mydraal and trollocs into the ways. We know from RJ that sammael is dead, so who was pretending to be him, and why?

 

Are 1 and 2 the same person/

 

related to this, prob the same person - who is the glowing person who spoke to Masema, as mentioned in the prologue of TGS? 

1. Lanfear hates Rand at that point and desperately wants him dead. However, Moridin won't let her kill him. So I'd see her as the primary suspect there. In AMoL, we see her send Slayer to kill Rand in the pit of doom, so we do see that she was directing slayer some of the time. 

 

2. Moghedien shows us her POV that she was an expert at imitating other forsaken, which some interpret as a hint that it was Moghedien pretending to be Sammael. Moghedien was under the the control of Moridin at that point and would have been afraid of doing something not approved by him, so she hid as Sammael.

 

3. Graendal had been after Perrin and had numerous plots in Masema's camp going.

 

but thats just speculation right? so we dont have any real clues as to who they were? I'm up to the end of TGS in my re read and havent noticed anything that lends a solid clue as to who did it. i suppose it could have been any of the forsaken , trying to get around Moridin's imposed control. I think Arangar/halima/belthamel does think at one point that "Moridin is going to be v disappointed about his orders to not have Rand murdered" so actually he might be a good bet 

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No, they were playing him (letting him think he was overhearing stuff they didn't want him to hear when actually the scene was staged and he heard only what they wanted him to hear and nothing more).

 

Balefire is as capable as anything else of passing through a Gateway - simply put an open Gateway in the path of the balefire and it will pass through it.

I know that they staged a conversation for him to hear, and during it she was asked if he could hear. She said no, straight out knowing it to be a lie. She didn't try to evade at all. I think the oath should have held, to me similar to the experiments to try to evade the rod. What would not make it hold this time?

 

by everything we've seen so far, balefire isn't effected by other weaves, it effects them by unraveling the pattern. The only exception is the new weave. I am as glad as anyone that gateways are finally being used in more creative ways, but it shouldn't make the most dangerous weave obsolete.

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looks like an editor missed that one; unless the necessity for survival supercedes the oaths; or pevara never submitted to the oaths.

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In relation to Pevara there is enough ambiguity there.

 

"He cannot hear what we say?"

 

"No"(He can)-Pevara

 

Certainly enough for the oaths to allow it. "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she tells you isn't the one you think you hear"

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In reply to the question about the oversight regarding Channelers at TG, I think you can chalk that one up to Mr. Sanderson not having the military background that Mr. Jordan possessed.

 

On the subject of the final battle, nothing about it made much sense. A battle of that magnitude took just a little over 24 hours to complete (The trollocs appear in the morning on one day and are finished early the next)? On a field as restircted in size as Merrilor? Even though it is described as vast, the numbers both forces brought to the fight would have so restricted their movements that they'd have had a hard timne wielding their weapons (as happened to the Romans at Cannae and Adrianople).

 

Then there's Mat giving up the high ground just because he knows there is a spy in his ranks. Everyone already know that the Sharans are with the Trollocs and can travel and the plateau is an obvious target, so their appearance there is not going to surprise anyone. It's an obvious move. Nor is Damendred's appearance. He's the Commander after all.

 

No sane comander would have given his opponenet such an avantage without putting up a fight (not unless he'd prepared the place as a trap).As for the plateau itself, if Mat was going to abandon it, why didn't he do so and then start destabilizing the thing with just the channelers we're told are available? Yes, it is an lot of dirt to deal with, but we're not talking explosives here, we're talking about using channelers who can turn dirt to mud by drawing in moisture from the air or divert the river so that it flows under the plateau. With the weight of the entire Dark Army on top of it, you don't really need to do all the much to bring it down. Even a partial collapse would have helped.

 

And, yes, I know that he changed his plans at the very lasy second, but a great commander makes contingincy plans for every situation and Mat already knew he was going to abandon the heights, so he should have planeed to take the place down as soon as the Dark Army appeared.

 

And then there's the Seanchan and their use in the final fight. The Damane are barely used even though we're told over and over what fearsome weapons they are? They didn't turn loose the Lopar and Crolm on the Trollocs even though the one time they were used they pretty much went through the trollocs like a hot knife through soft butter? What actual use was the Ever Victorious Army?

 

As for the fight at S.G., that fight made no sense from the get go..You're out numbered by bigger opponenets, but they can only reach you by going through a narrow cleft and you have the power to blow things apart? Whaddya do? Bring down the cliffs liniing the cleft and block it! Then spend your time having those same channelers dig a very wide, very deep trench across at the point of the valley where it's narrowest and put your forces on the other side.

 

Oh wait, you'd need lots of chaennlers for that..sorry, I forgot..

 

One final note, regarding the term "decimation", sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. It refers to to specific Roman punishment meted out to units who broke in battle or committed an act of dereliction of duty. The terms were unvarying: By lot one in every ten milites was stoned/beaten to death by their fellow milites. As you can see, decimation only killed 10% of the unit, which in any other setting wouldn't be such a bad situation. The better term to use is devastation. That implies a much greater casualty rate

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In reply to the question about the oversight regarding Channelers at TG, I think you can chalk that one up to Mr. Sanderson not having the military background that Mr. Jordan possessed.

 

On the subject of the final battle, nothing about it made much sense. A battle of that magnitude took just a little over 24 hours to complete (The trollocs appear in the morning on one day and are finished early the next)? On a field as restircted in size as Merrilor? Even though it is described as vast, the numbers both forces brought to the fight would have so restricted their movements that they'd have had a hard timne wielding their weapons (as happened to the Romans at Cannae and Adrianople).

 

Then there's Mat giving up the high ground just because he knows there is a spy in his ranks. Everyone already know that the Sharans are with the Trollocs and can travel and the plateau is an obvious target, so their appearance there is not going to surprise anyone. It's an obvious move. Nor is Damendred's appearance. He's the Commander after all.

 

No sane comander would have given his opponenet such an avantage without putting up a fight (not unless he'd prepared the place as a trap).As for the plateau itself, if Mat was going to abandon it, why didn't he do so and then start destabilizing the thing with just the channelers we're told are available? Yes, it is an lot of dirt to deal with, but we're not talking explosives here, we're talking about using channelers who can turn dirt to mud by drawing in moisture from the air or divert the river so that it flows under the plateau. With the weight of the entire Dark Army on top of it, you don't really need to do all the much to bring it down. Even a partial collapse would have helped.

 

And, yes, I know that he changed his plans at the very lasy second, but a great commander makes contingincy plans for every situation and Mat already knew he was going to abandon the heights, so he should have planeed to take the place down as soon as the Dark Army appeared.

 

And then there's the Seanchan and their use in the final fight. The Damane are barely used even though we're told over and over what fearsome weapons they are? They didn't turn loose the Lopar and Crolm on the Trollocs even though the one time they were used they pretty much went through the trollocs like a hot knife through soft butter? What actual use was the Ever Victorious Army?

 

As for the fight at S.G., that fight made no sense from the get go..You're out numbered by bigger opponenets, but they can only reach you by going through a narrow cleft and you have the power to blow things apart? Whaddya do? Bring down the cliffs liniing the cleft and block it! Then spend your time having those same channelers dig a very wide, very deep trench across at the point of the valley where it's narrowest and put your forces on the other side.

 

Oh wait, you'd need lots of chaennlers for that..sorry, I forgot..

 

One final note, regarding the term "decimation", sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. It refers to to specific Roman punishment meted out to units who broke in battle or committed an act of dereliction of duty. The terms were unvarying: By lot one in every ten milites was stoned/beaten to death by their fellow milites. As you can see, decimation only killed 10% of the unit, which in any other setting wouldn't be such a bad situation. The better term to use is devastation. That implies a much greater casualty rate

 

I agree with several of those topics, but Mat giving up the high ground is perfectly justifiable. Considering the use of gateways, the advantage means much less than it normally would have, and you need to consider that you are facing a huge number of channellers, even without Demandred, who can appear out of nowhere at any moment without warning. Leaving your men exposed on the top of a hill, with the enemy already knowing your entire formation, is suicide. I agree that he should have focused everything that he had on that spot in preparation for the Sharans' arrivals, but honestly, with all of their channellers, I doubt it would have mattered in the end. Demandred alone could have killed every channeller they had, and if they had started attacking him outright, he might have.

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I honestly cant recall where i heard where he said that about the characters but im going to look into to see if i can find it again. Also im also curious about one other fact in the books. What are the questions Rand and Moiraine ask the Aelfinn? They book never says what he asks specifically or what moiraine asks, only that 3 answers were given. I know that atleast one of Rands questions to them was about how to cleanse saidin but i specifically wanna see what his questions are and their answers. Same with Moiraine. Finally what vision does Moiraine see in the columns in Rhuidean that if she didnt see she would die? Im hoping these questions can be answered in the encyclopedia.

 

 

Replying to this here,

 

Moiraine didn't enter the columns, she went through the rings (similar to the Accepted test).  According to the Wise Ones the memories fade, but some events stay with them.  Her letter to Rand said she saw three possible outcomes, the one that happened, Rand dying(?) or Rand vbecoming Lanfears slave and calling himself LTT.  She also saw the conditions needed for her to be rescued (as per her letter to Thom).  She may have seen more, but I don't remember it being explained in the books.

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I tried but no one answered it there so I asked here instead. I sort of like that it is vague to it is like the ending of Battlestar Galactica (the new series) I was mad as hell the first time I saw it that we never got to know exactly what Starbuck was and how it all fit together but then when I had gotten some time to think about it I really think the end of the series was much better for the vagueness, if they had gone right out and said no she is an angel or oh she is a Cylon then that would have been a flatter ending than leaving it vague. I feel about the same about Rand's final scene in Wheel of Time, if all information had been given sure that would have solved the mystery but it would have been a less powerful ending. Well I like it except I get the iffies from people loosing their ability to channel.

 

 

Never compare BSG to this... The ending of that series is absolutely awful... Watch some of Ron Moore's commentary on those last episodes... Especial parts about throwing darts at a story board to decide who is or who isn't a cylon... That series made a bunch of promises and emphasized a lot of plot devices that turned out to be absolute BS... I have never watched a single episode of that show since... HORRIBLE ending.

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Does anyone know what happend there? Don't really know how to look for this one.

 

But uhh --- so they --- died? and returned through gatewaY?

 

what happend to them for real, where did they come from for real, if they had died if it had been an illusion????

 

 

so mind baffled.

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