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Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

Nakomi's ture identity  

310 members have voted

  1. 1. Who was Nakomi?

    • Just a random Aiel
    • A Jenn Aiel, somehow still around by TG
    • A time-traveler, someone from earlier days
    • Verin, she's all over the place, that one
    • An effect of the Wheel, or maybe a Creator-avatar
    • A Hero of the Horn
    • Lanfear
    • Graendal
    • Moghedien
    • Moridin
      0
    • Demandred
    • Taim
    • Tigraine


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She's nothing but a piece of intrigue placed in the books for the fans to be intrigued about. This is made clear by three things.

 

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

 

Brandon needed something (a mystery for the fans, perhaps--one may note his likening of Nakomi's role to the fandom with Asmodean's), went to Maria who provided him with something he could use, and ultimately the entire thing had little to no plot relevance.

According to yesterday's twitter chat, the scene that includes Nakomi in AMOL was written by RJ:

http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/294203184098967552

<

blockquote>

Mike Cox ‏@Mikecox20 


@BrandSanderson would like to know how much of the last chapter was written by RJ and how much did you do? #TorChat 



 

Brandon Sanderson

Verified

‏@BrandSanderson

@Mikecox20 I did Perrin and some of the in-between writing with Loial. RJ did Mat, Rand, scene exiting the mountain, and others. #torchat

ockquote>

So that seems to say that RJ did "plot" her for this book.lockquote>

No it doesn't and that response wasn't a complete answer. We know Brandon added a number of things. For instance the Cadsuane part of the epilogue was Brandon as well. Brandon has previously stated the character was his.

 

 

He did say "scene exiting the mountain". And as it is written, the old Aiel woman is not called Nakomi, and can barely be called a character. If he added her to the Aviendha scene, then he's the one who wrote her as a character, gave her a name, and worked in the small clues to who she is, so that her appearance again at the end is not a total surprise.

 

That seems to make sense, to me.

 

It makes perfect sense. RJ wrote that scene, BS read it, didn't know who the woman was, did some 'digging deep into the notes'. Found RJ's writings on who she actually was, introduced her himself, as RJ likely would have.

Edited by PM3

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I think she is The Creator's version of Shadar Haran, something akin to an avatar but not quite containing his entire essence.  As to why he would choose the form on an Aiel i cannot say, perhaps due to their association with his champion, The Dragon.

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I recently met Brandon at the AMoL Raleigh signing. One of my friends asked him, "Did the Creator ever physically manifest (not just appear as an ALL CAPS voice) in the WoT?" He refused to tell us, which suggests that the answer is yes. I know this is not solid evidence at all, but that makes me think that Nakomi is the Creator. She's the only character whose identity is yet ambiguous enough to be the Creator is physical form.

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Smething that I find curious about Nakomi's conversation with Avi. Before Nakomi shows up, there was something like: "she (Avi) closes her eyes for a moment". And from my experience with books, when it says "closes his/her eyes for a moment", it usually means "falling to sleep" :)

Rand's meeting with her (if that was Nakomi), was also in some kind of semi conscious state.

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If BS hadn't introduced Nakomi in ToM, then (to my current level of understanding) RJ would introduce her as an unnamed Aiel character in the Epilogue (the last I heard, Rand exiting the cavern was an RJ scene, slthough if it's only strongly RJ influenced scene, then I withdraw the objection :) ).  I don't know which would be preferable, but all BS really did was give her a name, *shrugs*

 

That's really the question though, and i'm not sure we're gonna get it answered (even though its a process question, not really a content question). I get the sense that BS is a little shaken that Nakomi drew such interest (which is surprising and  disappointing in itself).  My take is that this was an 'Androlesque note' by BS that ended up raising questions he cant answer.  I say that because per BS:

 

Keith Pishnery (13 January 2013) Did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

Brandon Sanderson (13 January 2013)  "I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not."                                    

 

Anything in the epilogue (written by RJ) could never be described as 'deep in the notes'. If RJ wrote it, it was going to be included and hence nothing would 'make me include her'. I wouldn't call that definitive, but it seems pretty strong evidence that the Nakomi scene was not written by RJ. The problem with that is that even if there was supposed to be a random Aiel outside the PoD, BS fleshed her out (especially with the Avi scene) and if he's spitballing its troubling. Maddening actually. Even if that character was designated to exist, giving her a name, showcasing her 'Rand magic', showing her randomly in the waste, etc in a sense leads the witness. Instead of a draw your own conclusion about who this unknown Aiel woman is and whether she is important/powerful, we are rather wrangled into figuring where she belongs in the cosmology of Randland.  Which kinda demands a better answer than RAFO. You don't just drop a major player into the very end of a mythology with no explanation, and then claim, dont worry, she's not that major. The hell she's not.

 

My impression has been that the mysterious Aiel woman was mentioned or written in the cave exit scene by RJ.  Based on that, BS asked Maria and the 2 looked in the notes and came up with Nakomi.  She then filled a role in Avis bit, so BS used her there.  But this is based off the assumption that RJ heavily influenced the cave exit, and that BS wrote Avis Rhuidean. 

 

But it doesn't really matter who wrote her in, I enjoyed the speculation after ToM (although I came late to it), I wish there was either more information about who she was, or that she hadn't appeared in MoL.  I guess we'll see what shows up in the encyclopedia, or if he'll start to be more forthcoming.

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I think she is similar to Shadr Haran  except for the creator. She plants ideas in Aviendhas head and then she (presumably) appears after Rand defeats the Dark One. I think she initiated the body swap with power given to her by the creator similar to the true source but probably different. That was the creator rewarding Rand.

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I think she is similar to Shadr Haran  except for the creator. She plants ideas in Aviendhas head and then she (presumably) appears after Rand defeats the Dark One. I think she initiated the body swap with power given to her by the creator similar to the true source but probably different. That was the creator rewarding Rand.

 

I agree that Nakomi probably is The Creators version of Shadar Haran, however, I always thought that The True Power itself was The Creator's own power.  Unlike the Dark One who selfishly hoards his power for himself, The Creator used his power to create a world and gave over his power to that world in order to sustain it.  Because his creation is a world of balance he divided his power into two very different but complementary halves.  This was in kind reflected in his creatures who were divided into two very different but complimentary genders.  This, of course is just my personal thoughts on the subject.  Neither RJ nor Brandon nor any member of Team Jordan had ever said anything to support this.

Edited by Leopoled Boothe

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If BS hadn't introduced Nakomi in ToM, then (to my current level of understanding) RJ would introduce her as an unnamed Aiel character in the Epilogue (the last I heard, Rand exiting the cavern was an RJ scene, slthough if it's only strongly RJ influenced scene, then I withdraw the objection :) ).  I don't know which would be preferable, but all BS really did was give her a name, *shrugs*

 

That's really the question though, and i'm not sure we're gonna get it answered (even though its a process question, not really a content question). I get the sense that BS is a little shaken that Nakomi drew such interest (which is surprising and  disappointing in itself).  My take is that this was an 'Androlesque note' by BS that ended up raising questions he cant answer.  I say that because per BS:

 

Keith Pishnery (13 January 2013) Did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

Brandon Sanderson (13 January 2013)  "I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not."                                    

 

Anything in the epilogue (written by RJ) could never be described as 'deep in the notes'. If RJ wrote it, it was going to be included and hence nothing would 'make me include her'. I wouldn't call that definitive, but it seems pretty strong evidence that the Nakomi scene was not written by RJ. The problem with that is that even if there was supposed to be a random Aiel outside the PoD, BS fleshed her out (especially with the Avi scene) and if he's spitballing its troubling. Maddening actually. Even if that character was designated to exist, giving her a name, showcasing her 'Rand magic', showing her randomly in the waste, etc in a sense leads the witness. Instead of a draw your own conclusion about who this unknown Aiel woman is and whether she is important/powerful, we are rather wrangled into figuring where she belongs in the cosmology of Randland.  Which kinda demands a better answer than RAFO. You don't just drop a major player into the very end of a mythology with no explanation, and then claim, dont worry, she's not that major. The hell she's not.

 

My impression has been that the mysterious Aiel woman was mentioned or written in the cave exit scene by RJ.  Based on that, BS asked Maria and the 2 looked in the notes and came up with Nakomi.  She then filled a role in Avis bit, so BS used her there.  But this is based off the assumption that RJ heavily influenced the cave exit, and that BS wrote Avis Rhuidean. 

 

But it doesn't really matter who wrote her in, I enjoyed the speculation after ToM (although I came late to it), I wish there was either more information about who she was, or that she hadn't appeared in MoL.  I guess we'll see what shows up in the encyclopedia, or if he'll start to be more forthcoming.

I agree with all of this. If they come up with something in the encyclopedia, well and good. If not, for me its a very significant fly in the ointment.

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If BS hadn't introduced Nakomi in ToM, then (to my current level of understanding) RJ would introduce her as an unnamed Aiel character in the Epilogue (the last I heard, Rand exiting the cavern was an RJ scene, slthough if it's only strongly RJ influenced scene, then I withdraw the objection :) ).  I don't know which would be preferable, but all BS really did was give her a name, *shrugs*

 

That's really the question though, and i'm not sure we're gonna get it answered (even though its a process question, not really a content question). I get the sense that BS is a little shaken that Nakomi drew such interest (which is surprising and  disappointing in itself).  My take is that this was an 'Androlesque note' by BS that

 

Keith Pishnery (13 January 2013) Did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

Brandon Sanderson (13 January 2013)  "I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not."                                     

ended up raising questions he cant answer.  I say that because per BS:

 

Anything in the epilogue (written by RJ) could never be described as 'deep in the notes'. If RJ wrote it, it was going to be included and hence nothing would 'make me include her'. I wouldn't call that definitive, but it seems pretty strong evidence that the Nakomi scene was not written by RJ. The problem with that is that even if there was supposed to be a random Aiel outside the PoD, BS fleshed her out (especially with the Avi scene) and if he's spitballing its troubling. Maddening actually. Even if that character was designated to exist, giving her a name, showcasing her 'Rand magic', showing her randomly in the waste, etc in a sense leads the witness. Instead of a draw your own conclusion about who this unknown Aiel woman is and whether she is important/powerful, we are rather wrangled into figuring where she belongs in the cosmology of Randland.  Which kinda demands a better answer than RAFO. You don't just drop a major player into the very end of a mythology with no explanation, and then claim, dont worry, she's not that major. The hell she's not.

 

My impression has been that the mysterious Aiel woman was mentioned or written in the cave exit scene by RJ.  Based on that, BS asked Maria and the 2 looked in the notes and came up with Nakomi.  She then filled a role in Avis bit, so BS used her there.  But this is based off the assumption that RJ heavily influenced the cave exit, and that BS wrote Avis Rhuidean. 

 

But it doesn't really matter who wrote her in, I enjoyed the speculation after ToM (although I came late to it), I wish there was either more information about who she was, or that she hadn't appeared in MoL.  I guess we'll see what shows up in the encyclopedia, or if he'll start to be more forthcoming.

I agree with all of this. If they come up with something in the encyclopedia, well and good. If not, for me its a very significant fly in the ointment.

 

I find it extremely annoying, nay maddening that Team Jordan is now RAFOing the flaming encyclopedia.  An encyclopedia is just a book of information, it has no plot and therefore cannot be "spoiled."  The main sequence is finished, the plot has resolved and the final curtain has fallen.  There is no more story to be told so blood and bloody ashes just answer our flaming questions already!!!!  After 23 years of loyal readership I think we finally deserve some straight answers for a change.

Edited by Leopoled Boothe

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Both Jordan and Sanderson sometimes use(d) RAFO for "Sorry, you're just going to have to speculate on that one."

 

As for Nakomi. I'd like to know. I'm curious. But she wasn't a major player. I don't know where that's coming from.

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After 23 years of loyal readership I think we finally deserve some straight answers for a change.

Sorry but are you joking?

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After 23 years of loyal readership I think we finally deserve some straight answers for a change.

Sorry but are you joking?

 

Its a legitimate complaint but meant to be presented in a humorous way so as to convey that there is no true anger or malice involved.  That being said I always took RAFO to be a failsafe against spoilers.  After all if the plot was to involve more on a given topic then we really didn't want those questions answered anyway.  Now the the plot has completely resolved, however, I don't see the point in continuing to be secretive.  There's no more plot to spoil so why not just answer all questions?

Edited by Leopoled Boothe

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This is heading off-topic, further posts will be deleted.

 

Leopoled, Suttree if you want to continue please take it to PM. 

 

Thanks

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Rand is the CoL, it is his soul that is spun out time and again for that purpose and souls don't change gender.

 

 

 

 

 

Aan'allein

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

 

Robert Jordan

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world

that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound

to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's

purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

 

Aan'allein
But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...
Robert Jordan
...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male,

just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's

soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are

not interchangeable.

 

>> 

Interview: 2001                                                         
Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased)                                                                                   
 Signing Report (Workings of the Wheel)                                            

Robert Jordan                                           

 

Female Dragon..NO when a female hero is needed she is

one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I

didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

 

 

As you quote yourself, and as people love to mention that the Big White Book is seen as from the PoV of a Randland person, he do say "That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul.". 

The key words being "It is the belief of the world". Just as everyone knew that stilling / gentling could not be healed. We also get a hint from Berelain that think being burned out should also be possible to heal somehow..

Notice how he do not actually say "this is how it works". He say "This is how people in my world think it works."

 

Also, the last quote with the name of the female hero forgotten could very well be Nakomi.

Edited by Ferdawoon

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Souls' don't change gender. RJ has clarified that a number of times. It is not merely what people think.

 

Curious as to what you mean from Berelain also? IIRC there has never been a hint of burning out able to be healed. The connection is gone much like a missing limb.

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Has anyone proposed the thought that Nakomi just might be Tigraine?? (Royal family does look like Aiel.)

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Has anyone proposed the thought that Nakomi just might be Tigraine?? (Royal family does look like Aiel.)

Many times in this thread elsewhere. :)

was lazy, lol

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The poll needs one more option.

 

Theory fodder.

 

Brandon confirmed to me that she wasnt just put in as someone to have theories about.

Yeah, we heard that a while back? I remember seeing that a couple days after my post. Somewhat of an AS answer if I recall but if you have the quote it would be cool to see. I like looking at the mythological origins for the name. That said I still think Luckers was spot on:

 

 

AM

She's nothing but a piece of intrigue placed in the books for the fans to be intrigued about. This is made clear by three things.

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but

something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which

leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

 

Brandon needed something (a mystery for the fans, perhaps--one maynote his likening of Nakomi's role to the fandom with Asmodean's), went to Maria who provided him with something he could use, and ultimately the entire thing had little to no plot relevance.

 

We have read the books, there is nothing more coming except for the encyclopedia. Unless you believe we have some new info coming down the pipe I'm not sure how she can be viewed any other way.

Edited by Suttree

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The poll needs one more option.

 

Theory fodder.

 

Brandon confirmed to me that she wasnt just put in as someone to have theories about.

Yeah, we heard that a while back? I remember seeing that a couple days after my post. Somewhat of an AS answer if I recall but if you have the quote it would be cool to see. I like looking at the mythological origins for the name. That said I still think Luckers was spot on:

 

AM

She's nothing but a piece of intrigue placed in the books for the fans to be intrigued about. This is made clear by three things.

1. Her existence was not something RJ plotted for this book but

something based on something Brandon found 'deep in the notes'. Which

leads us to two.

2. Brandon has disavowed using the notes--rather, when he needs something, he goes and asks Maria, who does the research.

3. She didn't really do anything. Or rather, she did nothing that wouldn't have occurred just as easily without her presence.

 

Brandon needed something (a mystery for the fans, perhaps--one maynote his likening of Nakomi's role to the fandom with Asmodean's), went to Maria who provided him with something he could use, and ultimately the entire thing had little to no plot relevance.

 

We have read the books, there is nothing more coming except for the encyclopedia. Unless you believe we have some new info coming down the pipe I'm not sure how she can be viewed any other way.

 

 

I was at the signing in Skokie and when I asked Brandon about Nakomi he said he couldn't give me a full answer except for these two points:

 

1. There is a hint in AMoL of who/what she is.

 

2. She was put in the books for a reason and it was NOT for the reason of giving fans something to theorize about.

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That info of course needs to be looked at through the lens of everything else we know concerning the topic. Regardless of what he said its hard to argue against Luckers points. I honestly at this point don't know what to make of it.(again though I do like connecting the Native American dream/nakomis myths to tar) Do you have any personnel theories on it?

 

Edit: Also is that the exact quote or are you paraphrasing. That can really help when trying to discern meaning.

Edited by Suttree

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Eh not 100% quote but I think Terez has it in database because I told her when he told me  but point two is almost word for word. I guess I better explain more. During the Q and A he said that there was a hint about Nakomi in AMoL so my question to him when I got to signing table was if the hint that he mentioned was when Bair (I think?) is talking to Aviendha early on in AMoL and she mentions Nakomi. He said that he couldn't tell but that what he would say was that she's in series for a reason and that she wasn't something he put in as some random person that was only there to be questioned by fans for years.That she was actually in there for a reason so I took it to be what I think many of us believe; he got indication in the notes that someone like Nakomi (prob named by Brandon) would fit in well near Tarmon Gai'don.

Edited by Southpaw89

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Eh not 100% quote but I think Terez has it in database because I told her when he told me  but point two is almost word for word. I guess I better explain more. During the Q and A he said that there was a hint about Nakomi in AMoL so my question to him when I got to signing table was if the hint that he mentioned was when Bair (I think?) is talking to Aviendha early on in AMoL and she mentions Nakomi. He said that he couldn't tell but that what he would say was that she's in series for a reason and that she wasn't something he put in as some random person that was only there to be questioned by fans for years.That she was actually in there for a reason so I took it to be what I think many of us believe; he got indication in the notes that someone like Nakomi (prob named by Brandon) would fit in well near Tarmon Gai'don.

Thing is, all Bair (maybe Amys, I can't remember) says about Nakomi is that it's an ancient name. I'm not sure how old that name would have to be for it to be classed as "ancient" though. The only ancient Aiel we know of are Rand's ancestors when he walks through the glass columns in Rhuidean...

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