Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[fuzz1717]

Did anyone point of the simple fact that Eggy thinks to herself that she couldn't beat Moggy linked with Romanda and Leiane yet she acknowledged that Ny could solo? I mean, pretty straightforward answer right there. Eggy herself thinks she couldn't do it. (it may have been refuted already, although I'm not sure how) meaning if there was a battle, in her mind she would already be at a disadvantage. 

When? My memory is awful, and I'm not quite there in my re-read (only just started ACoS). Good point though, didn't realize that was true.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and real question here: 

 

What is the difference between "mastering" a weave and "copying" it?

 

I mean, when it comes to healing, I can see the difference. Maybe even something like creating a gateway or cullendiar, (faster with less power) but offensive weaves? What's the difference between a Fireball and a Master fireball? I mean, we know what a "Mastered" shield can do. You can shield stronger people, although it says nothing about cutting them off. 

The question is a good one, and I agree that destructive weaves, once copied, are really essentially the same. But if an AS "masters" a weave I think that they would then be able to adapt the weaves to different situations and exercise greater control over the weave or use it in different ways. 

 

To answer the Master fireball question... idk maybe a "Mastered Fireball" would be able to weaved easily while multiple other weaves are being spun, or require less attention or energy to create. Who knows.

[Kahsm]

Did anyone point of the simple fact that Eggy thinks to herself that she couldn't beat Moggy linked with Romanda and Leiane yet she acknowledged that Ny could solo? I mean, pretty straightforward answer right there. Eggy herself thinks she couldn't do it. (it may have been refuted already, although I'm not sure how) meaning if there was a battle, in her mind she would already be at a disadvantage. 

 

Pretty sure if you asked Nyn if she could take on Moggy before she had to, she'd say no pretty quick. So I don't see your point here... Luckily we have plenty of actual on screen evidence to use instead that shows Eggs is better.

[Nightstrike]

3. Give over on the hypotheticals

First part of that sentence is something you should try. Talaan=/=Egwene, for starters. Then there are other "what ifs".

[Suttree]

This seems to have been glossed over amidst today's posts but Mr Ares had a very astute observation that needs to be highlighted...

 

Mr Ares

As has been stated several times, that's the OP equivalent of an arm wrestling match. If all of your strength is committed, and the other person has more strength to apply, then you'll lose unless you can escape somehow. Egwene knows that Nynaeve is stronger, and is unlikely to commit to a contest of raw strength. If it is not a contest of pure strength, then dexterity absolutely can counter a power advantage. If Nynaeve tried a direct attack with all her strength, then Egwene would be outmatched if she tried to meet it head on. On the other hand, if she reacted like Talaan, then suddenly Nynaeve finds her weaves out of position and Egwene can take her. Strength is useful, but it would be foolish to rely on it.

 

 

@BFG

 

Curious as to whether you think Eggy's skill/dexterity advantage is enough to do the above given she obviously would not engage Nyn in a strength v. strength no skill  arm wrestle as Mogi did.
 

[Nightstrike]

When has Egwene been drilled in duelling? When has she shown any skill in duelling? If she indeed had any potential for becoming skilled, and did realize that potential, then we still don't know that she could ever have any chance of defeating Nynaeve as of book 14. That's it.

[Nightstrike]

Egwene is bad at certain things, like healing. She must practice more than Nynaeve in order to learn new things, and she will never be able to perform decent healing. She could be worse at duelling than she's at healing, for all we know.

[Vardar]

 

Did anyone point of the simple fact that Eggy thinks to herself that she couldn't beat Moggy linked with Romanda and Leiane yet she acknowledged that Ny could solo? I mean, pretty straightforward answer right there. Eggy herself thinks she couldn't do it. (it may have been refuted already, although I'm not sure how) meaning if there was a battle, in her mind she would already be at a disadvantage. 

 

Pretty sure if you asked Nyn if she could take on Moggy before she had to, she'd say no pretty quick. So I don't see your point here... Luckily we have plenty of actual on screen evidence to use instead that shows Eggs is better.

 

 

This is after Ny already beat Moggy. So post beating Moggy, Eggy acknowledges Ny's superiority in battling Forsaken. You don't see the point? If you admit Person A would kick your ass with assistance, while admitting person B could kick person's A's ass solo, you don't think that logically it follows that you're admitting Person B could kick you ass as well? Really? You don't see the connection at all, or are you being sarcastic. 

 

@ Fuzz, Umm A crown of Swords, I just read the chapter, like 10 minutes ago. When Moggy escapes the AS camp.

 

And yea, the whole mastered weaves part of this debate has be thinking.  

[Vardar]

This seems to have been glossed over amidst today's posts but Mr Ares had a very astute observation that needs to be highlighted...

 

Mr Ares

As has been stated several times, that's the OP equivalent of an arm wrestling match. If all of your strength is committed, and the other person has more strength to apply, then you'll lose unless you can escape somehow. Egwene knows that Nynaeve is stronger, and is unlikely to commit to a contest of raw strength. If it is not a contest of pure strength, then dexterity absolutely can counter a power advantage. If Nynaeve tried a direct attack with all her strength, then Egwene would be outmatched if she tried to meet it head on. On the other hand, if she reacted like Talaan, then suddenly Nynaeve finds her weaves out of position and Egwene can take her. Strength is useful, but it would be foolish to rely on it.

 

 

@BFG

 

Curious as to whether you think Eggy's skill/dexterity advantage is enough to do the above given she obviously would not engage Nyn in a strength v. strength no skill  arm wrestle as Mogi did.

 

 

But how do you not engage in a raw strength match in this situation? honestly, when have we not seen pure strength win (with the Cy. Al exception and she admitted that reversed webs was the only way she would get out alive, and she didn't kill Al, so in my mind she loss) when it came to a direct battle? I was trying to recall one, but most battles I can think of were no 1v1 or/and someone had surprise on their side. I'm just not getting what's stopping Ny from shielding Eggy? Eggy would have to use all her Strength to slice the weaves and have  nothing left to stop Ny's constant shielding attempts. 

[Suttree]

But how do you not engage in a raw strength match in this situation? honestly, when have we not seen pure strength win (with the Cy. Al exception and she admitted that reversed webs was the only way she would get out alive, and she didn't kill Al, so in my mind she loss) when it came to a direct battle? I was trying to recall one, but most battles I can think of were no 1v1 or/and someone had surprise on their side. I'm just not getting what's stopping Ny from shielding Eggy? Eggy would have to use all her Strength to slice the weaves and have  nothing left to stop Ny's constant shielding attempts. 

 

Read the difference in fight descriptions between Moggy/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan. Two very different type of duels and in the second we actually see Talaan use Nyn's strength and lack of touch against her. You get in to splitting flows while using them in innovative nimble ways as opposed to merely throwing pure strength against strength. With Cyn/Alivia skills, knowledge, and dexterity absolutely played a role.

[Vardar]

 

But how do you not engage in a raw strength match in this situation? honestly, when have we not seen pure strength win (with the Cy. Al exception and she admitted that reversed webs was the only way she would get out alive, and she didn't kill Al, so in my mind she loss) when it came to a direct battle? I was trying to recall one, but most battles I can think of were no 1v1 or/and someone had surprise on their side. I'm just not getting what's stopping Ny from shielding Eggy? Eggy would have to use all her Strength to slice the weaves and have  nothing left to stop Ny's constant shielding attempts. 

 

Read the difference in fight descriptions between Moggy/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan. Two very different type of duels and in the second we actually see Talaan use Nyn's strength and lack of touch against her. You get in to splitting flows while using them in innovative nimble ways as opposed to merely throwing pure strength against strength. With Cyn/Alivia skills, knowledge, and dexterity absolutely played a role.

 

 

 

With Ny/Taal, as has been said, Ny was tired. Plus they were equal strength. Cy/Al is as close as we get to a battle where one was clearly stronger, and Cy admitted that her only advantage (one which worked to her advantage) was reversed weaves. And despite that, who really won? Cy was driven off correct? Neither died, by Al was able to keep Cy from doing what she came to do, so in my  mind at least Al won that. I asked a clear question tho, what other 1v1 battles have we seen where someone who had the greater strength advantage lost without surprise? I honestly can't think of one at all. 

 

I know Lucks said people are overvaluing strength, but the books harps on it so much. Strength is nearly everything., especially when it's a HUGE difference. Rand at his max power level vs Lanfear wouldn't even be a battle. The other male forsaken know Lanfear is a threat, but are positive they can take her if it comes to it. They're what, 2 levels above her? Why do you think they think that? Perhaps they're fooling themselves, or maybe there's something to it. If Ny was one level above Eggy, I could see the point. But at some point it becomes beating up a kid (Like someone said earlier on). 

[fuzz1717]

[content removed]

 

Ouch. That stings, and I wasn't even the one accused (I think...)

 

Would you like to provide some evidence to support Nynaeve's side or refute Egwene's? I mean, if you're gonna call someone out on ignoring the opinions of others, certainly you must have opinions of your own on this topic. I personally voted for Egwene because I believed that her adaptability and creativity would allow her to outmaneuver Nynaeve, who generally attacks problems head on and is, as previously mentioned, clumsy with her weaves. 

[Mats Spare Hat]

When I first spotted this thread, my initial thought was "Does Nynaeve have a stick?"

...Yeeahh, nevermind.

[Thrasymachus]

She doesn't even have a braid to yank anymore.  That alone has got to handicap her some.  

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just a warning going back a few posts. 

 

Any negative comments on the users personality or nature is against the CoC and will not be tolerated. 

 

Please stick to debating the content of posts, not the user who makes them. 

[Durinax]

 

But how do you not engage in a raw strength match in this situation? honestly, when have we not seen pure strength win (with the Cy. Al exception and she admitted that reversed webs was the only way she would get out alive, and she didn't kill Al, so in my mind she loss) when it came to a direct battle? I was trying to recall one, but most battles I can think of were no 1v1 or/and someone had surprise on their side. I'm just not getting what's stopping Ny from shielding Eggy? Eggy would have to use all her Strength to slice the weaves and have  nothing left to stop Ny's constant shielding attempts. 

 

Read the difference in fight descriptions between Moggy/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan. Two very different type of duels and in the second we actually see Talaan use Nyn's strength and lack of touch against her. You get in to splitting flows while using them in innovative nimble ways as opposed to merely throwing pure strength against strength. With Cyn/Alivia skills, knowledge, and dexterity absolutely played a role.

 

I know the difference, and the key being that Mog/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan are approximately in the same weight class, now provide an example of when a weaker person was able to effectively duel a stronger person based on dexterity.

[fionwe1987]

Vardamus: On what Egwene said about Moghedien... shall we look at the actual quotes?

 

Thrusting her head and the lantern into "Marigan's" tiny tent, she found it empty. The blankets that made up the pallet on the ground lay in a sprawl, tossed aside by someone in a hurry. 

And what if she had still been here? she wondered. With the necklace off, and maybe whoever freed her? Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing; even had a sister felt her channel, there would be nothing remarkable in that. Worse, Moghedien might not have killed her. And no one would have known anything until they found the pair of them gone.

First and foremost, Egwene is berating herself for rushing into the tent. If Moghedien had been in there, and freed, she could indeed have killed Egwene. Egwene had no defenses set up, and she certainly didn't go in holding the Power. She'd have been surprised, and would have been killed or captured with ease. This has nothing to do with strength.

 

Secondly, at this point, Egwene was not at her full potential. That makes all the difference in her assessment of her chances. In ToM, when she has reached her potential, she is confident of being able to face Mesaana. 

 

"How should I have explained to anyone why they were supposed to watch my serving woman? For that matter, what good would it have done? It had to be one of the Forsaken. Do you really think Faolain and Theodrin together could have stopped him? I'm not sure I could have, even linked with Romanda and Lelaine." They were the next two strongest women in the camp, as strong in the Power as Siuan used to be.

 

Note Egwene's language here. First thing to note is that she's talking about facing a male Foresaken. Secondly, she's saying she's not sure she could have faced him, even linked with Romanda and Lelaine. But we know her assessment is wrong. Eben, Daigian and Beldeine did do so, and while we don't exactly know where Eben stands with respect to Egwene, he can't far outstrip her because he was never remarked as a particularly powerful Asha'man. On the other hand Daigian was markedly weaker than either Lelaine or Romanda, and Beledeine is weaker, though by a smaller amount. And of course, Daigian's circle had the advantage of being mixed gender. However you parse it, though, Daigian's circle at best matches the one Egwene was proposing, and had Eben dying. If they could beat back Halima, Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine certainly could.

 

Now, to the question of where dexterity has won over strength. First of all, RJ has said it does straight out. If you want to disagree, you're disagreeing with a direct quote from the creator of the series. 

 

Secondly, here's an example of where skill/dexterity end up matching strength:

 

Naeff nodded. The two of them strode forward, creating wind. They shattered buildings, causing them to burst and fall. Naeff was far more skilled at the process than she, but Nynaeve was stronger in the One Power. Together, they swept the crumbling buildings, stones and husks before them in a dust storm.

 

To achieve the same effect, Nynaeve uses her strength, but Naeff uses his greater skill. This matches exactly what RJ said, about dexterity making up for lower volume of the One Power drawn. You can achieve the same effect with less of the Power if you're skilled at the job. 

[Knivy]

Skill and dexterity arent the the same thing. 

[Suttree]

 

But how do you not engage in a raw strength match in this situation? honestly, when have we not seen pure strength win (with the Cy. Al exception and she admitted that reversed webs was the only way she would get out alive, and she didn't kill Al, so in my mind she loss) when it came to a direct battle? I was trying to recall one, but most battles I can think of were no 1v1 or/and someone had surprise on their side. I'm just not getting what's stopping Ny from shielding Eggy? Eggy would have to use all her Strength to slice the weaves and have nothing left to stop Ny's constant shielding attempts.

Read the difference in fight descriptions between Moggy/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan. Two very different type of duels and in the second we actually see Talaan use Nyn's strength and lack of touch against her. You get in to splitting flows while using them in innovative nimble ways as opposed to merely throwing pure strength against strength. With Cyn/Alivia skills, knowledge, and dexterity absolutely played a role.

I know the difference, and the key being that Mog/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan are approximately in the same weight class, now provide an example of when a weaker person was able to effectively duel a stronger person based on dexterity.

Roy Jone Jr. verse John Ruiz. ;)

 

No but seriously Cyndane v. Alivia just to name one is mentioned in what you quoted above and not only was Alivia much stronger but she had a Paralis-net that stops direct flows! Cyndane did serious damage do to greater skills, knowledge and dexterity.

 

Admittedly I haven't read NS in forever but Moir. V. Merean was also referenced earlier in this thread as a fight that lasted quite some time(refuting this first strike strength move that a certain poster fabricated as being something a weaker channel can't stop/evade.) Moir despite being weaker(she hasn't reached her potential yet) held her own and was only shielded once Diryk was tossed of the balcony and she tried to save him, she eventually won by going "low tech" and stabbing her, much like Nyn throwing something at Mogi as a surprise.

[fionwe1987]

And as for shielding... can we please drop the pretense that Nynaeve can easily shield Egwene? That has been debunked.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

Don't see much point in this thread. Wasn't Nynaeve about as strong as Egwene and Elayne combined? Moreover she's more experienced at fighting channellers as well and she's even more dexterious in terms of the complexity of her weaves as I recall. There was I believe some comment about Egwene and Elayne being awed by Nynaeve's complex Healing weaves. Besides I think there is a direct corelation between strength and dexterity anyways. The stronger one is the easier it is to split the flows in different ways and channel several things at the same time.

 

From what we've seen, baring a very great difference in experience the stronger one almost always wins in a straight up fight between same sex opponents. Dexterity and tactics only really counts when the strength of both sides is roughly even. And Nynaeve winning against Moggy does make sense regardless since Moggy never had much experience in fighting fairly. She always struck from hiding once that advantage was lost she didn't have any significant advantage in experience over Nynaeve.

There seems to be a never-ending flood of these. Sheesh.

 

 

 

 

It really is quite baffling how pull keep pulling things out of their ass on this topic. The reasonable posters in the discussion BFG, Ares etc. seem to be finding a common ground. Then we continue to have these outliers that seem to be just fabricating what they want their ideal of Nyn to be along with how fighting works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah yeah Suttree, honestly I really don't give a damn what you think whenever a thread is in any way related to Egwene.

 

All I did was voice my opinion and one which I think is grounded in what we've seen in the books. And from what we have seen it's a simple fact that the first determining factor of the outcome in any battle of the OP atleast when it is two of the same sex is strength. Stronger people learn quicker, they can split their flows better and in more ways, they are far more intuitive when it comes to channelling etc. That's all there is to it. That is my opinion and it won't change at this point.

This is a who would win in a fight thread, which are basically the lowest of the low other than pairing threads. There is no point in arguing or finding common ground with your own coterie of posters since this is a completely hypothetical situation where everyone's opinion is equally valid, by which I mean not at all. So even if you got twenty people with a combined number of posts in the millions disagreeing with me it wouldn't bother me in the least.

It is not true that all opinions are equally valid. Opinions backed up by evidence are worth more than those without. Opinions with strong reasoning behind them are worth more than those without. You feel your opinion is rooted in the facts from the books. Others disagree - and there is a significant amount of evidence and reasoning apparent in the thread already that doesn't really support your conclusion. You are free to voice your opinion, but it's not worth as much as the opinions that add something to the debate, regardless of which side they are debating for.

 

Question for 'your side' though: say things played out differently, and Nyn responded to Tal by making her think she was being set on fire (ie, Nyn uses a web to warm the area around her or something like that.) Tal freaks, and gets shielded. Would you attribute Nyn's victory to her skill with fire and state that will always turn the tide of a 1 v 1 fight?

I know that this wasn't directed at me, but my reply to it would be the same as my earlier reply to you. It takes smarts to think of that, but skill to carry it out. If Nynaeve had less skill with fire, it might be that she is incapable of doing that in an efficient way, and so it takes more effort than it should and leads to her defeat. Or perhaps she doesn't have the necessary fine control, and ends up severely burning Talaan (still, a win is a win). Talaan used both good tactics and dexterity to win. If she lacked the dexterity to do those things, then she would have lost, or would have had to use different tactics. If she had the dexterity but just didn't think of it, she would have lost unless she thought of something else. But saying that it was a victory for good tactical thinking and dexterity combined doesn't really undermine the point - dexterity was required for the win (and Nynaeve isn't the best in terms of tactics anyway). Dexterity helped win the day.

 

For the record, I do not. Saying something over and over again does you no favors, to borrow one of your lines If you repeat an opinion often enough, it still does not become fact (about ignoring words.) Along the same line, you could have said that my opinion makes no sense TO YOU. You do not nor ever will decide what makes sense for me or for others. If you really want to do that, go join a priesthood and tell others how to think and interpret words. I believe my opinion makes sense, and again, I apologize if you don't like that. I've explained my position on the issue and what I feel was the main reason for Tal's victory, and others apparently feel similarly.

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

I know Lucks said people are overvaluing strength, but the books harps on it so much. Strength is nearly everything., especially when it's a HUGE difference. Rand at his max power level vs Lanfear wouldn't even be a battle. The other male forsaken know Lanfear is a threat, but are positive they can take her if it comes to it. They're what, 2 levels above her? Why do you think they think that? Perhaps they're fooling themselves, or maybe there's something to it. If Ny was one level above Eggy, I could see the point. But at some point it becomes beating up a kid (Like someone said earlier on).

There is no guarantee that Rahvin was correct in his assessment - the Chosen do lie to themselves over strength, and unless he had linked with her it would be difficult for a man to accurately gauge a woman's strength. The books and the BWB both state that Lanfear was second strongest, with only Ishamael being stronger (although Aginor seems to be about as strong, given that he's the second strongest man, and vies with Lanfear for second strongest over all).

 

A quote that people should bear in mind when brining up their opinion: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to be ignorant."

[BFG]

This seems to have been glossed over amidst today's posts but Mr Ares had a very astute observation that needs to be highlighted...

 

Mr Ares

As has been stated several times, that's the OP equivalent of an arm wrestling match. If all of your strength is committed, and the other person has more strength to apply, then you'll lose unless you can escape somehow. Egwene knows that Nynaeve is stronger, and is unlikely to commit to a contest of raw strength. If it is not a contest of pure strength, then dexterity absolutely can counter a power advantage. If Nynaeve tried a direct attack with all her strength, then Egwene would be outmatched if she tried to meet it head on. On the other hand, if she reacted like Talaan, then suddenly Nynaeve finds her weaves out of position and Egwene can take her. Strength is useful, but it would be foolish to rely on it.

 

 

@BFG

 

Curious as to whether you think Eggy's skill/dexterity advantage is enough to do the above given she obviously would not engage Nyn in a strength v. strength no skill  arm wrestle as Mogi did.

 

 

Complicated question and my thoughts aren't hugely coherant on this, so bear with me :)

 

Eg would have the skill to do what Talaan did, but there are 2 questions that I don't believe the text can answer, so comes down to individual interpretation.

 

1.  Even if Eg got past Nyns defence, would she be able to shield Nyn by breaking through her connection to the Source - I don't think she is, we see Nyn unable to shield Elayne despite the fact that Elayne is weaker.  We also see Talaan use dexterity and precision to block Nyn, so the dexterity allowed her to strike, and the precision combined with her strength allowed her to slam the shield home.  I don't think Eg has the strength to slam the shield home, she may be able to start 'digging' in, but the problem with this is that it then automatically devolves into a strength v strength fight which Eg can't win.

 

2.  I actually agree to an extent with Emily_Sedai & possibly Nightstrike (I think it was them anyway - apologies if I'm wrong) who said that the wrestling and street-smarts come in to it.  We know that the WF, WO and AS all have different methods of channeling.  Lets say the WF wrestle, the AS box and the WO karate (or something) (I know nothing about martial arts, but the method of how they channel doesn't matter as much as the fact that they differ, could equally well say WF - a, WO -b, AS - c).  When Nyn is fighting Talaan she is boxing, because that's what she knows, that's how all of her fights are done and she's never seen anything else.  When Talaan is reminded of the thought process behind successful wrestling her attacks change style completely and Nyn can't adapt quickly enough to counter this.  Second time Nyn has adapted already, but Talaan has a new trick up her sleeve.  For one of those attacks she demonstrates an ability I don't recall any AS having - to moderate and change the power diverted into a flow.  I may be wrong on this and it's something that AS can do as well, but I always thought it was a WF ability, in the way that unravelling a weave is a WO ability.  That's not to say that an AS can't do either of these things, but they need to know it's possible before they can try. 

 

So essentially I think Eg could do the things that Talaan did, I'm not sure she'd know to try.  It's possible that she picked up something from the Aiel way of thinking that could take Nyn by surprise, but the WO seem to focus least on channeling ability as it's not valued highly among them, so I'm not sure how much Eg could have learned.  I don't think they'd have taught her channeling as they thought she was AS, and the lessons she'll have observed with Avi will likely have been basic stuff, but she may have picked up the Aiel way of thinking (indeed in some respects we know she has) which give her an advantage.  If not it comes down to boxing v boxing, which is something Nyn has considerably more experience in.  Additionally Nyn now has the battle against Talaan showing her different ways to weave and distract the opponent.

 

 

[content removed]

 

Ouch. That stings, and I wasn't even the one accused (I think...)

 

Would you like to provide some evidence to support Nynaeve's side or refute Egwene's? I mean, if you're gonna call someone out on ignoring the opinions of others, certainly you must have opinions of your own on this topic. I personally voted for Egwene because I believed that her adaptability and creativity would allow her to outmaneuver Nynaeve, who generally attacks problems head on and is, as previously mentioned, clumsy with her weaves. 

 

 

And yet in battle situations (specifically) Nyn has actually shown to be the more creative - she invented balefire, used useless weaves as weapons etc (in a way that impressed Eg).  In battle, Eg has so far shown a preference for straightforward destruction - ground errupting beneath the WC, fire with the fades, straightforward strikes (a lot of them, but straightforward) against the Seanchan.  A lot of this is due to the situation, WC and fade was lack of training, and given her overwhelming strength, no subtlety or complexity was required against the Seanchan, using easier weaves probably means you can channel longer.  (In fact a big problem I'm having with this debate is that I don't recall ever seeing Eg in a 1 on 1 battle, so extrapolating skills from other areas to this is difficult, in the same way I struggle to extrapolate skills Nyn has to a large battle as it's something we've never seen her do)

 

Having said all that Eg has also done things by instinct - can't remember when but at one point she hangs a ball of light on the wall (start of the hunt for the BA?), Elayne learns it from her, but she then learns it from Elayne - it made me laugh), but Nyn's propensity to invent stuff, outside of healing (the overall umbrella, not the Talent), is triggered by stressful/battle situations.

 

Again, their isn't much evidence for adaptability in combat situations - the basic setup against the Seanchan was the one that the rebels came up with to deal with an attack by the Forsaken (major points for remaining clearheaded here tho, in the situation it would have been very easy to panic).  But nothing to say she isn't either.

 

If it's ever a situation when Eg can plan ahead ('pistols at dawn') or something, than I'd back Eg every time - one of her true strengths is anticipating the enemy, countering expected moves, etc - she's shown skill at this with politics, her initial plans for Mesana, etc and I have no reason to think it would be different against Nyn.

 

If either of them attack and catch the other by surprise then that person would win.

 

If it comes down to brute strength (e.g. Nyn vs. Moggy) than Nyn wins.

 

Other situations get more complex. (she says understating things a little)

 

 

 

Vardamus: On what Egwene said about Moghedien... shall we look at the actual quotes?

 

 

Thrusting her head and the lantern into "Marigan's" tiny tent, she found it empty. The blankets that made up the pallet on the ground lay in a sprawl, tossed aside by someone in a hurry. 

And what if she had still been here? she wondered. With the necklace off, and maybe whoever freed her? Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing; even had a sister felt her channel, there would be nothing remarkable in that. Worse, Moghedien might not have killed her. And no one would have known anything until they found the pair of them gone.

 

First and foremost, Egwene is berating herself for rushing into the tent. If Moghedien had been in there, and freed, she could indeed have killed Egwene. Egwene had no defenses set up, and she certainly didn't go in holding the Power. She'd have been surprised, and would have been killed or captured with ease. This has nothing to do with strength.

 

Secondly, at this point, Egwene was not at her full potential. That makes all the difference in her assessment of her chances. In ToM, when she has reached her potential, she is confident of being able to face Mesaana. 

 

I actually thought (per Elayne) that Eg has been at or near her full potential since Falme as a result of being forced - certainly this (Moggy escapes) comes after the last time Elayne saw her to comment that Eg was more powerful than she was as a result of being forced.  Additionally, although you're right Egwene is saying that if Eg was unprepared Moggy could kill her easily (and this is a key difference to how she plans on dealing with Mesaana), she also says flat out that Nyn is the only sister who can match a Forsaken when she's capable of channeling at all.  Clearly at this stage Eg has a very high opinion of Nyns battle skill and arguably rates it higher than her own.

[Manjunathan]

I give more than an even chance for an Egwene win. A duel is hardly going to be a cage match. It involves a lot of tactical manoeuvring (Ref: Rand vs Rahvin). Here, I believe Egwenes' abilities outmatches that of Nynaeve. 

[Knivy]

I give more than an even chance for an Egwene win. A duel is hardly going to be a cage match. It involves a lot of tactical manoeuvring (Ref: Rand vs Rahvin). Here, I believe Egwenes' abilities outmatches that of Nynaeve. 

The problem with that is that once you make it anything other than a cage match, then there are an infinite amount of variables in involved.  Are Lan and Gawyn allowed to fight?  Where is it taking place? Do they know they will fight each other?

[Elan Tedronai]

 

 

But how do you not engage in a raw strength match in this situation? honestly, when have we not seen pure strength win (with the Cy. Al exception and she admitted that reversed webs was the only way she would get out alive, and she didn't kill Al, so in my mind she loss) when it came to a direct battle? I was trying to recall one, but most battles I can think of were no 1v1 or/and someone had surprise on their side. I'm just not getting what's stopping Ny from shielding Eggy? Eggy would have to use all her Strength to slice the weaves and have  nothing left to stop Ny's constant shielding attempts. 

 

Read the difference in fight descriptions between Moggy/Nyn and Nyn/Talaan. Two very different type of duels and in the second we actually see Talaan use Nyn's strength and lack of touch against her. You get in to splitting flows while using them in innovative nimble ways as opposed to merely throwing pure strength against strength. With Cyn/Alivia skills, knowledge, and dexterity absolutely played a role.

 

 

 

With Ny/Taal, as has been said, Ny was tired. Plus they were equal strength. Cy/Al is as close as we get to a battle where one was clearly stronger, and Cy admitted that her only advantage (one which worked to her advantage) was reversed weaves. And despite that, who really won? Cy was driven off correct? Neither died, by Al was able to keep Cy from doing what she came to do, so in my  mind at least Al won that. I asked a clear question tho, what other 1v1 battles have we seen where someone who had the greater strength advantage lost without surprise? I honestly can't think of one at all. 

 

I know Lucks said people are overvaluing strength, but the books harps on it so much. Strength is nearly everything., especially when it's a HUGE difference. Rand at his max power level vs Lanfear wouldn't even be a battle. The other male forsaken know Lanfear is a threat, but are positive they can take her if it comes to it. They're what, 2 levels above her? Why do you think they think that? Perhaps they're fooling themselves, or maybe there's something to it. If Ny was one level above Eggy, I could see the point. But at some point it becomes beating up a kid (Like someone said earlier on). 

 

 

 

strength is irrelevant when the opponent has decent strength, more tricks up their sleeve or choose to fight the battle in their own way.

 

consider Rahvin vs rand. If it wasn't for nynaeve would rand survived that battle? Consider gawyn vs hammar. Teacher vs student. Who got killed in the end? Galad vs valda. Who was the better swordsman? Yet who won in the end?

 

The strongest male channeller is equal to the strongest woman channeller according to jordan. why because the woman's skills with the one power can compensate for a man's sheer strength in the power

[Suttree]

 

 

I give more than an even chance for an Egwene win. A duel is hardly going to be a cage match. It involves a lot of tactical manoeuvring (Ref: Rand vs Rahvin). Here, I believe Egwenes' abilities outmatches that of Nynaeve.

The problem with that is that once you make it anything other than a cage match, then there are an infinite amount of variables in involved. Are Lan and Gawyn allowed to fight? Where is it taking place? Do they know they will fight each other?

Not really, obviously other people cant be involved but I don't think anyone has ever been talking about solely a 10 feet away stare at each other fight. How about they know they will fight and the location can change.