Most infuriating moment/topic in the books

[muddasssir]

@ yosarian this was at the point where story had started slipping out of RJ's grasp. Before that everything that happened had a reason and a cause effect relationship. for me at least it was the first time that Rj was asking for suspension of disbelief and it was painful

[Yosarian]

I find it really interesting that this kind of thing keeps coming up in the thread.

 

Rand's refusal to kill a woman.

 

Perrin cutting off the hand of the captured Shaido .... That was just so manic, brutal, and cruel. Just gave me the chills.

 

Rand mass extermination of Natrin's Barrow .... And his threat to destroy the borderlanders for "slighting him." He was more Demandred in that scene than LTT.

 

 

Alanna forcibly bonding Rand

 

One of the running themes in the whole series, and one of the things I find most interesting, is the question "which of your ethics are you willing to sacrfice for what you think the greater good". Every character struggles with this at one point or another. The best characters do some terrible things for what they think are good reasons, and some complete monsters also think they are doing what they have to do for the greater good. Or sometimes characters don't violate their ethics for the greater good, and somehow that can also feel wrong.

 

The really cool thing is that the answers are not obvious for most of these. To the point where some people hate Rand for not killing women and other people hate Rand for killing women (and some do both ;) ). Yes, Alana bonding Rand was a horrible violation of what was right; but she thought it was the best way to save the world. On the other hand, I think people forget that in the first book Moraine told the boys that she was willing to kill them all herself rather then let the Shadow capture them. And remember, Aes Sedi don't bluff; she was telling the truth.

 

I think this whole conflict is one of the most interesting parts of the series.

[Maleshub]

Rand takes Caemlyn in 1 chapter, takes Illian in 1 chapter, cleanses Saidin in 1 chapter

 

But ....

 

Elayne takes three books to take Caemlyn and Perrin requires 3 books for a rescue operation.

 

Blood and bloody ashes, but that's flaming frustrating!

[Durinax]

Rand takes Caemlyn in 1 chapter, takes Illian in 1 chapter, cleanses Saidin in 1 chapter

 

But ....

 

Elayne takes three books to take Caemlyn and Perrin requires 3 books for a rescue operation.

 

Blood and bloody ashes, but that's flaming frustrating!

not really, it takes more effort to rule than to conquer

[JimboSlice]

Elayne since book two. She was ok in book one.

Egwene. Worst character in the series. She was awful in book one and she just keeps getting worse.

Nynaeve in the first three quarters of the series. I like her now.

Faile making Perrin follow through the ways. I would have strangled her throughout that whole book.

I really used to cringe when I had to read a pov from one of the above characters, and there were many times when I just skimmed through it.

[muddasssir]

Elayne could be just as foolish and reckless under RJ as Brandon. That being said, Elayne in TofM made me think someone had stolen her ritalin.

Luckers you of all people should never complain about the writing quality as you was one of the biggest advocate of the split. When I specifically raised this point that writing quality will suffer more the series drag. This book should have been finished as one book as originally envisaged. Than we would not have had to read the elaborate back stories by Mat and all the other stuff that makes everyone cringe. Well I am loving it when I say I told you so

[MattHildenbrandt]

The entire post-rebellion internal Tower arc, at least until the Seanchan invasion. It's boring, and one scene with Verrin renders the entire BA hunt entirely pointless. I've skimmed all of those chapters looking for a break in POV for my last 5 rereads

[Morden]

The entire post-rebellion internal Tower arc, at least until the Seanchan invasion. It's boring, and one scene with Verrin renders the entire BA hunt entirely pointless. I've skimmed all of those chapters looking for a break in POV for my last 5 rereads

 

Personally I had hoped that the whole reason for the the BA hunt was for Egwene to find sisters who had unswore on the Oath rod. Then the idiot girl went and swore on it anyway, shredding any sort of moral superiority she previously held.

 

But who knows maybe someone will think to add the Seanchan to the list of Kill on Sight people like shadowspawn and darkfriends. Stupid really seeing as Egwene was making everyone re-swear but didnt think to do something so obvious mere hours after just fighting Seanchan...

[Mubz]

I really hate when Elayne pretends that she has a thing for Hanlon whatever his name is. I hate his character and just despise everything about him.

[MattHildenbrandt]

The entire post-rebellion internal Tower arc, at least until the Seanchan invasion. It's boring, and one scene with Verrin renders the entire BA hunt entirely pointless. I've skimmed all of those chapters looking for a break in POV for my last 5 rereads

 

Personally I had hoped that the whole reason for the the BA hunt was for Egwene to find sisters who had unswore on the Oath rod. Then the idiot girl went and swore on it anyway, shredding any sort of moral superiority she previously held.

 

But who knows maybe someone will think to add the Seanchan to the list of Kill on Sight people like shadowspawn and darkfriends. Stupid really seeing as Egwene was making everyone re-swear but didnt think to do something so obvious mere hours after just fighting Seanchan...

 

Oh, I hate the Salidar stuff, but I was referring to the Elaida garbage, and Pevara, and all the others I've intentionally managed to overlook/forget about in my recent rereads. Miss Freida looking for Messana. All of it is null and void in two chapters of ToM, which makes me hate the fact that I had to read it in the first place even more. I guess this ties in with the communal sense that the series lost its way in the late middle. But at least the super girl crap, and to some extent the Perrin crap has some point, or builds on something that becomes important. Pevara could have been introduced to us in the chapter when she is approached by Tarna, and she would still be in the Black Tower, and we would have been spared how many chapters of fluff?

[Mr Ares]

Elayne could be just as foolish and reckless under RJ as Brandon. That being said, Elayne in TofM made me think someone had stolen her ritalin.

Luckers you of all people should never complain about the writing quality as you was one of the biggest advocate of the split. When I specifically raised this point that writing quality will suffer more the series drag. This book should have been finished as one book as originally envisaged. Than we would not have had to read the elaborate back stories by Mat and all the other stuff that makes everyone cringe. Well I am loving it when I say I told you so

The split and the quality of the writing are two rather separate issues. If Mat's back stories, and all the "other stuff that makes everyone cringe" was removed, we'd still have just as many books, only they'd be a little shorter (unless more was put in to replace what gets taken out), but those books wouldn't have that stuff that makes people cringe.

[TNine]

Elaida's pleading to Tuon after her capture:

"Please," Suffa said, looking pleadingly toward Fortuona. "Please, listen to me. I am the Amyrlin Seat"

 

Melitene hissed, and Suffa's eyes opened wide, obviously feeling a blast of pain through the adam. The damane continued anyway. "I can offer great bounty, powerful Empress! If I am returned, I will give you ten women to take my place. Twenty! The most powerful the White Tower has. I—" She broke off, moaning, and collapsed to the ground.

 

Melitene was sweating. She looked to Selucia, speaking quickly, nervously. "Please explain to the Empress of us all—may she live forever— that my eyes are lowered for not having trained this one properly. Suffa is amazingly stubborn, despite how quick she is to weep and offer others in her place."

 

Nothing that she did really bothered me beforehand. Yes, she has a mix of arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity to be a horrible leader, she was a typical incompetent ruler who became paranoid and arrogant after assuming power. But at least her actions came from delusions of grandeur. That comment, on the other hand, made my stomach roil--how selfish can Elaida be that she would not only accept, but actually offer a trade of herself for other sisters? I don't know why, but that really, really got to me.

[Sagacious Lu]

Wet Things. Need I say more?

[Maleshub]

Elaida's pleading to Tuon after her capture:

"Please," Suffa said, looking pleadingly toward Fortuona. "Please, listen to me. I am the Amyrlin Seat"

 

Melitene hissed, and Suffa's eyes opened wide, obviously feeling a blast of pain through the adam. The damane continued anyway. "I can offer great bounty, powerful Empress! If I am returned, I will give you ten women to take my place. Twenty! The most powerful the White Tower has. I—" She broke off, moaning, and collapsed to the ground.

 

Melitene was sweating. She looked to Selucia, speaking quickly, nervously. "Please explain to the Empress of us all—may she live forever— that my eyes are lowered for not having trained this one properly. Suffa is amazingly stubborn, despite how quick she is to weep and offer others in her place."

 

Nothing that she did really bothered me beforehand. Yes, she has a mix of arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity to be a horrible leader, she was a typical incompetent ruler who became paranoid and arrogant after assuming power. But at least her actions came from delusions of grandeur. That comment, on the other hand, made my stomach roil--how selfish can Elaida be that she would not only accept, but actually offer a trade of herself for other sisters? I don't know why, but that really, really got to me.

 

To me that sealed Elaida's fate of slavery or death. We know she isn't free of the three oaths, and so she meant every word. Elaida would really enslave 20 sisters to get the collar off her neck. And that is just a couple of weeks into her captivity. Egwene, Teslyn, and Edesina have more backbone that that arrogant, narcissistic woman.

[thom_merrilin]

Sea Folk and Aes Sedai all of them are pure arrogance. They always demand people use their titles, Aes Sedai are possibly the worse, throwing hissy fits if you don't use Sedai or Aes Sedai when addressing them. they think they know the best for the entire world, and that the world owes them.

Sea Folk always demand a bargain for anything, and always work it so they come out best. They demand that anyone teaching them weaves is lower that they are. They see themselves as better than anyone including Aes Sedai.

 

These two groups are possibly the most hateful in the series, apart from the Seanchen.

[Centauri25]

for me, it is the total lack of communication amongst the key players. You know, Rand sharing his plans, all the cool new talents should be laid out. Maybe Rand, he of the instant gateways to anywhere, should seek to stay in contact with Matt and Perrin, or even <gasp> the black tower? Cadsuane, Egwene, Nyn, Wise Ones all staying in touch daily through gateways and dream meetings. They could even discuss the cool new things they discovered, the new weaves etc.

 

Also, the resurrection in new bodies thing. And for what? Most have been useless and just cast back aside. I would rather Sammael _didn't_die (in place of aginor), or Lanfear escaped the finns rather than die and come back in some weird way. Or just invent some new dreadlords/forsaken level to fill out the staffing. Tug braid smooth skirts sniff.

[Morden]

 

Also, the resurrection in new bodies thing. And for what? Most have been useless and just cast back aside. I would rather Sammael _didn't_die (in place of aginor), or Lanfear escaped the finns rather than die and come back in some weird way. Or just invent some new dreadlords/forsaken level to fill out the staffing. Tug braid smooth skirts sniff.

 

If the bad guys acted competantly then the good guys would have no chance, its the Achilles heel of the entire series. Arrogance on both sides of the battle, almost everyone is out to get the best deal for themselves. (Whether its the Forsaken wanting power, the kingdoms wanting power, the Aes Sedai wanting... power... on and on with the Seanchan etc except they want to reconquer lands their ancestors father held that never belonged to them. The only ones who really dont are the Aiel Wise Women, they are trying to salvage as much of their people as they can, granted how they go about it is as arrogant as everyone else.)

 

Its no wonder Rand almost turned fully dark to me, I think almost any of us would have gone fruit loopy...

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Also, the resurrection in new bodies thing. And for what? Most have been useless and just cast back aside. I would rather Sammael _didn't_die (in place of aginor), or Lanfear escaped the finns rather than die and come back in some weird way. Or just invent some new dreadlords/forsaken level to fill out the staffing. Tug braid smooth skirts sniff.

 

If the bad guys acted competantly then the good guys would have no chance, its the Achilles heel of the entire series. Arrogance on both sides of the battle, almost everyone is out to get the best deal for themselves. (Whether its the Forsaken wanting power, the kingdoms wanting power, the Aes Sedai wanting... power... on and on with the Seanchan etc except they want to reconquer lands their ancestors father held that never belonged to them. The only ones who really dont are the Aiel Wise Women, they are trying to salvage as much of their people as they can, granted how they go about it is as arrogant as everyone else.)

 

Its no wonder Rand almost turned fully dark to me, I think almost any of us would have gone fruit loopy...

I would've fallen on my sword by book 6

[Carnacarn]

Nyn after Birgitte comes out of TaR. The 2nd best main female character (after Moraine, of course) being overly emotional. Nyns best attribute is her ability to show sympathy/empathy while being blunt. She cares but does not tolerate foolishness. Reading the scenes in FoH were some of the worst reading, until the books 9 and 10, of the entire series.

[Tyler Glembo]

Nyn after Birgitte comes out of TaR. The 2nd best main female character (after Moraine, of course) being overly emotional. Nyns best attribute is her ability to show sympathy/empathy while being blunt. She cares but does not tolerate foolishness except for the constant foolishness and extreme hyposcrisy from herself that makes all her interactions with others seem like she is an arrogant know-it-all who is really incredibly ignorant and simply bossy. Reading the scenes in FoH were some of the worst reading, until the books 9 and 10, of the entire series.

 

Fixed that for ya :-)

[Whizbang]

Re: Nynaeve's bossiness

 

I love that she still thinks she knows what is best, simply because she was Wisdom in a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere. She has not spent a moment longer "outside" than any of the other Emond's Fielders, yet she still feels as if her experience as a village Wisdom gives her better insight than, say, Elayne's training as Daughter Heir, Rand's experience as a ruler, Moiraine's experience and education as an Aes Sedai, etc. At some point she just has to let that Wisdom hat go, and realize that not only is it too small for her own head, but also does not grant her any special insight or powers of reasoning.

[BFG]

Re: Nynaeve's bossiness

 

I love that she still thinks she knows what is best, simply because she was Wisdom in a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere. She has not spent a moment longer "outside" than any of the other Emond's Fielders, yet she still feels as if her experience as a village Wisdom gives her better insight than, say, Elayne's training as Daughter Heir, Rand's experience as a ruler, Moiraine's experience and education as an Aes Sedai, etc. At some point she just has to let that Wisdom hat go, and realize that not only is it too small for her own head, but also does not grant her any special insight or powers of reasoning.

 

Yup, love the contradiction between words and actions that Nyn is. To be fair, both Eg and Elayne are on record as saying/thinking that Nyn understands the workings of groups working together to rule than Elayne has with Daughter-Heir training.

[Suttree]

To be fair, both Eg and Elayne are on record as saying/thinking that Nyn understands the workings of groups working together to rule than Elayne has with Daughter-Heir training.

 

Do you recall where that was? Would love to check it out. Cheers.

[David Selig]

To be fair, both Eg and Elayne are on record as saying/thinking that Nyn understands the workings of groups working together to rule than Elayne has with Daughter-Heir training.

 

Do you recall where that was? Would love to check it out. Cheers.

I recall Egwene thinking about it in LoC when she became Amyrlin and met Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

“Well, whatever their reasons, they chose me Amyrlin, and since they did, I mean to be Amyrlin, but I have to be careful, at first anyway. Maybe Siuan made the Hall jump every time she frowned”—she wondered whether that had ever been true—“but if I try that, I might just be the first Amyrlin ever deposed the day after she was raised.”

Elayne looked dumbfounded, but Nynaeve nodded slowly. Perhaps being Wisdom and dealing with the Women’s Circle back home had given her more insight into how the Amyrlin Seat and the Hall of the Tower actually worked together than all of Elayne’s training to be Queen."

[Suttree]

To be fair, both Eg and Elayne are on record as saying/thinking that Nyn understands the workings of groups working together to rule than Elayne has with Daughter-Heir training.

 

Do you recall where that was? Would love to check it out. Cheers.

I recall Egwene thinking about it in LoC when she became Amyrlin and met Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

“Well, whatever their reasons, they chose me Amyrlin, and since they did, I mean to be Amyrlin, but I have to be careful, at first anyway. Maybe Siuan made the Hall jump every time she frowned”—she wondered whether that had ever been true—“but if I try that, I might just be the first Amyrlin ever deposed the day after she was raised.”

Elayne looked dumbfounded, but Nynaeve nodded slowly. Perhaps being Wisdom and dealing with the Women’s Circle back home had given her more insight into how the Amyrlin Seat and the Hall of the Tower actually worked together than all of Elayne’s training to be Queen."

 

Thanks David! Pretty interesting stuff...