Perrin the Pedophile

[Bromo Sapien]

So I was looking around the WOTFAQ, catching up on random tidbits, when I came across the article listing everyone's age. It says that Faile is "of an age with Ewin Finngar" who was said to be 14 at the start of EoTW. It's been about two years or so since then, making both Ewin and Faile about 16. You see where I'm going with this. Perrin's straight cradle robbing here. Dude is married to a sixteen year old girl. That's just creepy.

[Majsju]

Different society, different norms. If we tried to apply modern day standards on the books, every single main character should be in prison for life.

[Barmacral]

If you compare WoT to the Renaissance (which is I believe the general time setting RJ picked for the series) this would be entirely normal, and Perrin might even be late in life getting married.

 

So basically, what Maj said.

[Thrasymachus]

What Majsju said. There's really not that big a difference between Faile's age and Perrin's. There's, what, 5 years? 6 max. When Perrin's 30, Faile will be 25. Besides, for most of human history, and in most human cultures, the ruling norm was, "if it bleeds, it breeds," or in baseball vernacular, "if there's grass on the field, play ball." If Faile hadn't run away from home, then odds are Zarine Bashere would have been betrothed or married already anyway.

[Azrayne]

Where did they get that number from? She never comes off as that young in the books, I always saw her as 18/19, maybe 17 at the lowest. She's old enough to wandering around the world by herself without too much comment, which I have a hard time believing would be the case if she was that young, even in this series. Likewise, I imagine her father's attitude when he found her would have been much, much worse if she was as young as that article claims.

 

That said, 16 to, what, 19, is hardly considered unusual in a renaissance equivalent society. While the books aren't too forthcoming about exact ages so it's hard to compare, in medieval/renaissance times, someone marrying at 15 or 16 to a man even decades older wasn't seen as unusual, so I can't see them getting too squeamish about a 3 year age gap.

[Kadere]

Pedophilia is defined as the desire for children ages 13 and younger. If anything he's an ephebophile, or a person who is attracted to people in their late teens, 15-19. He's hardly a cradle robber if she's 16.

 

Plus at the start of the story Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all 18, so by the time he meets her he's only 20. That's a four year age difference.

 

And in most older societies (and even a number of current ones) you're considered an adult at 16, which Faile is. So, no Perrin is not a pedophile.

[Shendare]

Even in the modern world, the "age of consent" as it's called is 16 in many places, and people can get married at that age, though sometimes parent/guardian's permission is required.

 

18 is common, but is certainly not universal.

[Sharaman]

Yeah - all the three main characters are teenagers when EotW begins. AoC in Japan is still 12+ I think.

[zerachiel76]

Even in the modern world, the "age of consent" as it's called is 16 in many places, and people can get married at that age, though sometimes parent/guardian's permission is required.

 

18 is common, but is certainly not universal.

 

I agree as in the UK the age of consent is 16 so in my view he can't be a pedophile and we can also marry at 16 with our parent's consent (which she belatedly got) so again nothing that weird there IMO.

 

However I suppose if the the OP is from somewhere where the age of consent is 18 (or higher) then yes I could see why you would think that. It's all about the laws where you're from I suppose.

[Luckers]

I vaguely recall reading a comment by Maria or Jordan about this when it came up last time, saying that Faile was in fact 16 at the beginning of the series. I can't recall what the explanation was, nor can I find it, but I do remember it... vaguely. :)

[Elan Tedronai]

my great great grand mother got married at the age of 14. big freakin deal

[Majsju]

I vaguely recall reading a comment by Maria or Jordan about this when it came up last time, saying that Faile was in fact 16 at the beginning of the series. I can't recall what the explanation was, nor can I find it, but I do remember it... vaguely. :)

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I also recall that. but I figured they retconned it, to avoid getting comments like the original post in this thread when RJ is not around to exlain how things work.

[Suttree]

I remember this one...

 

 

 

Interview: Jun 17th, 1995

 

East of the Sun Interview - Helena Lofgren (Paraphrased)

 

 

Robert Jordan

 

 

The story of TWoT evolved during a very long period, in part beginning in the middle of the seventies with the idea of the Breaking of the World, before he found the "final scene in the final book" and began to actually write The Eye of the World. The main impetus from the beginning was the notion of "men breaking the world" (my emphasis), and that men able to channel must be killed, controlled or stopped at all costs for 3,000 years. This led naturally to a society where women had great power and respect.

As an example of this, he puts forth Davram Bashere's reaction to Faile being a Hunter of the Horn. His initial negative response does not come from that Faile is a girl, but that she only is 17 years old. Her gender is irrelevant to the issue.

[David Selig]

The passage which says that Faile is "of an age with Ewin Finngar" was corrected in the later editions (the ebooks at least, not sure about the print versions. Now it is "Ewin not really that much younger than she herself".

[Orderofolde]

Pedophilia is defined as the desire for children ages 13 and younger. If anything he's an ephebophile, or a person who is attracted to people in their late teens, 15-19. He's hardly a cradle robber if she's 16.

 

Plus at the start of the story Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all 18, so by the time he meets her he's only 20. That's a four year age difference.

 

And in most older societies (and even a number of current ones) you're considered an adult at 16, which Faile is. So, no Perrin is not a pedophile.

And don't forget that Ewin gained another 2 years. And I agree, she came across as about 17-19 of a same age as he was, never can I recall reading anything that would lead me to think she was much younger than he was. No questioning looks or whispers. The Women's Circle in the TR bowed and scraped and looked to her for advice. She was a powerful leader of people among the Aiel during her capture and well before.

[Randommer]

Well, according to Encyclopedia WoT, Perrin was 19 in EotW and 20 when he got married, and considering RJ's comment and the fixing of the Ewin Finegar thing, Faile was 17 or 18 (depending on if he meant she was 17 when she ran away or 17 when she met up with her parents again). So either way, not that much of a gap. I think RJ tended to be vague about ages on purpose though, considering it is odd to think of how young they're all supposed to be.

[Dagon Thyne]

Different society, different norms. If we tried to apply modern day standards on the books, every single main character should be in prison for life.

 

Well in the two rivers, she wouldn't be able to marry normally, since she would not be old enough to braid her hair, meaning she is still a child. Also, it is mentioned that she isnt old enough to marry without her mother's permission. And there is also the fact that she is not old enough to marry without her parents' permission.

[randsc]

Pedophilia is a condition typified by attraction to prepubescents, which Faile is not.

 

16 or 17 at marriage is common even today. And the age range is basically nothing. For most of human history, girls of 16 or 17 were marrying men twice their age.

[Azrayne]

16 or 17 at marriage is common even today.

 

Wat?

 

In Uganda maybe, certainly not in any first world country.

[Tyzack]

So, that's pretty interesting, I always thought that Faile was one of the "older" characters, more along the lines of Nyn, based purely off her character.

[randsc]

16 or 17 at marriage is common even today.

 

Wat?

 

In Uganda maybe, certainly not in any first world country.

 

"First World" countries account for less than 20% of the world's population.

 

Marriage at 16 or 17 is common even today. Common as in, millions a year.

 

And Randland ain't exactly "First World."

 

Only someone who had a lousy social life in high school could believe that having sex with a 16-year-old girl makes one a pedophile.

[Azrayne]

16 or 17 at marriage is common even today.

 

Wat?

 

In Uganda maybe, certainly not in any first world country.

 

"First World" countries account for less than 20% of the world's population.

 

Marriage at 16 or 17 is common even today. Common as in, millions a year.

 

And Randland ain't exactly "First World."

 

Only someone who had a lousy social life in high school could believe that having sex with a 16-year-old girl makes one a pedophile.

 

Sure, but it's common in the same parts of the world where forced marriage, oppression of women, high STD rates, warfare and genocide, etc. are common. That is to say, it's generally viewed as a bad thing, as a product of poverty and a lack of women's rights.

 

There's a reason the marriage age increases as average income and quality of life do.

[randsc]

16 or 17 at marriage is common even today.

 

Wat?

 

In Uganda maybe, certainly not in any first world country.

 

"First World" countries account for less than 20% of the world's population.

 

Marriage at 16 or 17 is common even today. Common as in, millions a year.

 

And Randland ain't exactly "First World."

 

Only someone who had a lousy social life in high school could believe that having sex with a 16-year-old girl makes one a pedophile.

 

Sure, but it's common in the same parts of the world where forced marriage, oppression of women, high STD rates, warfare and genocide, etc. are common. That is to say, it's generally viewed as a bad thing, as a product of poverty and a lack of women's rights.

 

There's a reason the marriage age increases as average income and quality of life do.

 

OK, and the relevance of all that is....what, exactly?

 

The fact remains, marrying (or just having sex with) a 16 year old is not pedophilia. It is not unusual in this world, and there is certainly no reason to think it would be unusal in the pre-industrial world we see in the WoT.

 

[Removed]

 

As for your last line, someday we'll have to have a discussion about the difference between causation and correlation, but this isn't the time or place.

[Thrasymachus]

It's actually secondary and higher education that's the primary cause of young women in first world countries not getting married and having kids until later in their lives. Historically, men would be educated and/or apprenticed until they were in their early to mid twenties at the least, and then spend another few years after that setting up their business and establishing their careers, then they'd be ready to support a wife and family. Women had to be able to cook, clean and take care of the kids and household. When women were first permitted, and then encouraged to get an education and pursue a career similar to men, they took just as long to get set up, so they put off their family plans the same way men did.

 

It doesn't really have anything directly to do with their standards of living, or even with how well they're educated. Women aren't choosing to wait to have kids because they think that having kids too early will make them poor, or because they've learned something about how to take care of themselves and their kids better by waiting and having fewer of them from their higher education. In fact, the prime reproductive years for a human female are from roughly 15-16 till the late twenties/early thirties. Putting off having kids until your late 20's/early thirties actually more than doubles the risks associated with pregnancy and early childhood than having kids in the late teens/early twenties. They're just doing it because they're busy being educated or establishing a career, and they want to finish that up before their attention is taken up by family matters.

[yoniy0]

Let's keep on track. It doesn't help the discussion to describe every country outside Europe / North America as the scene of genocide (I'm exaggerating, no one actually said so) or to discuss our personal sexual experience, and good reason not to do so besides.