What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[driedraspberry]

u forget that Rand and Perrin had other thing to worry about.

 

ambition is based on making a better future.

Rand dont think he have any future -> hard to be ambitious when u believe u die in few weeks (and even then he tried to leave a Legacy/be remembered)

Perrin was fearing he will turn into a wolf -> hard to plan for the future when u dont know if u still be human tomarrow .

 

notice how Perrin accept lordhood and refused to give it up or to surrender TR autonamy (his rule) after he reached inner peace.

 

I understand they have concerns and believe they're fated for bleak futures, but I would say their lack of ambition is a personality trait that's regardless of those factors. They seemed perfectly content where they originally were before they knew anything about the dark path ahead. Compare that to Egwene/Mat/Nyn who sought greater things/adventure/position of power and who would certainly not be happy otherwise.

Edited October 22, 2012 by driedraspberry

[Durinax]

u forget that Rand and Perrin had other thing to worry about.

 

ambition is based on making a better future.

Rand dont think he have any future -> hard to be ambitious when u believe u die in few weeks (and even then he tried to leave a Legacy/be remembered)

Perrin was fearing he will turn into a wolf -> hard to plan for the future when u dont know if u still be human tomarrow .

 

notice how Perrin accept lordhood and refused to give it up or to surrender TR autonamy (his rule) after he reached inner peace.

 

I understand they have concerns and believe they're fated for bleak futures, but I would say their lack of ambition is a personality trait that's regardless of those factors. They seemed perfectly content where they originally were before they knew anything about the dark path ahead. Compare that to Egwene/Mat/Nyn who sought greater things/adventure/position of power and who would certainly not be happy otherwise.

I think its more of Rand and Perrin being forced out of their home, and finding something terrible (from their viewpoints) about themselves, its like what Lanfear said about having greatness forced upon you, or you choosing it freely

[JimboSlice]

Of the men the only ones I have really liked are Matt and Logain. Perrin and Rand like to wine too much. Gawyn's annoying all around. Galad is not really meant to be liked. All the warders are just hanging on the skirts of the aes sedai, and don't have a legitimate opinion. You're left with only Matt and Logain with decent personalities.

 

What makes me dislike the male characters, aside from the whining (though in Rand's case it's somewhat acceptable), is how unambitious they are. Perrin and Rand most of all. Except for the Forsaken (and evil greedy nobles), Logain and Mat are notable in being driven or having interest in anything outside of survival/fulfilling destiny/mundane labor. I mean I get it, but it does make them somewhat dreary. Ambition is a great attribute in fictional characters.

 

I agree. Their constant avoidance of any responsibility (especially Perrin) has gotten annoying. In the last book Perrin's story got a little better with his acceptance of leadership. Rand's did too. The constant listing of all the women who died because of him got annoying. But I guess maybe you could consider the series a process of self discovery or of the development of the characters from children into men.

 

What I like about Logain is that he seems to be more free spirited. He is a free man, even when captured. He isn't whiney, he is proud.

 

I forgot to mention that I liked Asmodean. Even though he was a bit of a rat, he had some personality. I would have liked his character to continue on.

[driedraspberry]

I think its more of Rand and Perrin being forced out of their home, and finding something terrible (from their viewpoints) about themselves, its like what Lanfear said about having greatness forced upon you, or you choosing it freely

Oh definitely Rand and Perrin have reasons to fear what's up ahead. But yeah, they were pretty much forced into it. I actually found Rand less adventurous than even Tam. It seemed that Mat was the one driving anything fun the two of them get involved in before Moiraine showed up.

 

Of the men the only ones I have really liked are Matt and Logain. Perrin and Rand like to wine too much. Gawyn's annoying all around. Galad is not really meant to be liked. All the warders are just hanging on the skirts of the aes sedai, and don't have a legitimate opinion. You're left with only Matt and Logain with decent personalities.

 

 

What makes me dislike the male characters, aside from the whining (though in Rand's case it's somewhat acceptable), is how unambitious they are. Perrin and Rand most of all. Except for the Forsaken (and evil greedy nobles), Logain and Mat are notable in being driven or having interest in anything outside of survival/fulfilling destiny/mundane labor. I mean I get it, but it does make them somewhat dreary. Ambition is a great attribute in fictional characters.

 

I agree. Their constant avoidance of any responsibility (especially Perrin) has gotten annoying. In the last book Perrin's story got a little better with his acceptance of leadership. Rand's did too. The constant listing of all the women who died because of him got annoying. But I guess maybe you could consider the series a process of self discovery or of the development of the characters from children into men.

 

What I like about Logain is that he seems to be more free spirited. He is a free man, even when captured. He isn't whiney, he is proud.

 

I forgot to mention that I liked Asmodean. Even though he was a bit of a rat, he had some personality. I would have liked his character to continue on.

 

I definitely respect Rand and Perrin for accepting responsibility despite their every instinct wanting a boring simple life. But I'm not generally a fan of the reluctant hero. I guess it's one of those things, different tastes etc. I just understand Logain's bid for a false Dragon upon finding out he's a sparker. I can relate to his ambitions more than I can relate to Perrin whining about being a lord for freaking ever. He's a much more realistic, relate-able character in my eyes in a sense.

 

Asmodean is one of my absolute favorite characters. He's selfish and awful in many ways, but so painfully human. I love that his passion for music and how he turned to DO's side simply for the gift of immortality, a lifetime of sensual enjoyment. He's the perfect example of how a not particularly ambitious character can be extremely enjoyable.

[XXX]

I think one of the biggest problems with Egwene is that she has come to embody every negative trait of the White Tower. She has a double dose of Aes Sedai arrogance, and a complete inability to relate to others.

 

The difference between Egwene and Nynaeve is that Nynaeve is fully aware of her own shortcomings andy hypocrisies, and struggles to correct them (usually). Egwene can't or won't ... she seems to thrive off of them.

 

/thread

 

Not sure why this was brought back up but anyone who goes back in this thread can see it was soundly refuted at the time.

 

Depends on point of view as Egwene remains one of the most hated characters in the series. And the most common words fans continue to label her by is "arrogant" and "hypocrite". So something obviously went badly wrong in the portrayal of the character if she was not supposed to be either of these 2 things.

Edited October 22, 2012 by XXX47

[BFG]

I think one of the biggest problems with Egwene is that she has come to embody every negative trait of the White Tower. She has a double dose of Aes Sedai arrogance, and a complete inability to relate to others.

 

The difference between Egwene and Nynaeve is that Nynaeve is fully aware of her own shortcomings andy hypocrisies, and struggles to correct them (usually). Egwene can't or won't ... she seems to thrive off of them.

 

/thread

 

Not sure why this was brought back up but anyone who goes back in this thread can see it was soundly refuted at the time.

 

Depends on point of view as Egwene remains one of the most hated characters in the series. And the most common words fans continue to label her by is "arrogant" and "hypocrite". So something obviously went badly wrong in the portrayal of the character if she was not supposed to be either of these 2 things.

 

It's tricky, I don't like Eg although I do admire/respect what she's achieved/is achieving.

 

I have used hypocritical, but that's not quite the right word - she comes very, very close to it sometimes, but possibly never quite crosses the line, with Elaida she comes close several times. She derides Elaida for wanting to force sisters to swear to the Amyrlin (which she never actually did) compared to Eg blackmailing that promise out of the sisters in Salidar. So is the oath that Elaida mentioned but never enforced worse than the oath Eg demanded and received? She derides Elaida for wanting to control Rand, but wants to do exactly the same thing, she's just better at it. Obviously there are huge differences between them, Elaida orders the kidnapping of Rand (and several other rulers), Eg chooses to let Rand go when he appears in TV, but that is at least partly because she realises she couldn't hold him. So hypocritical isn't quite the right word, but it's close and I don't know of a better one.

 

Arrogant, again I've probably used - but to be fair I think pretty much every main pov is arrogant. Pretty much every AS shows arrogant behaviour that the Tower is more important than anything else. Nyn probably realises the problems of seperating out the Tower so much better than anyone. Rand is arrogant and most of the Ashaman - I suspect it comes from having more Power (in several senses of teh word) than most other people.

 

 

As I've said, Egs reaction in tEotW gives her huge credit for me, but after that there are very few things she does that I view as nice (and I tend to like nice people). It's not really Egs fault though, in tGH she goes through something horrific, spends most of tDR fighting with Nyn for control (and I can sympathise with both sides) and is then seperated from her friends until briefly in LoC. From then on she's surrounded by people that want to control her and has very few people around her that she can truly be friends with. Her position demands that there are very few people of equal rank and that same rank gives her a responsibility for thw world. She displays amazing resilience when held in the WT and as I said after tEotW her high point for me is in choosing a red for her keeper.

 

I'm waffling a bit, but I can sympathise with her position and admire her as Amrylin, but the only time in the books that I'd have liked her as a person is in tEotW.

[Suttree]

I think one of the biggest problems with Egwene is that she has come to embody every negative trait of the White Tower. She has a double dose of Aes Sedai arrogance, and a complete inability to relate to others.

 

The difference between Egwene and Nynaeve is that Nynaeve is fully aware of her own shortcomings andy hypocrisies, and struggles to correct them (usually). Egwene can't or won't ... she seems to thrive off of them.

 

/thread

 

Not sure why this was brought back up but anyone who goes back in this thread can see it was soundly refuted at the time.

 

Depends on point of view as Egwene remains one of the most hated characters in the series. And the most common words fans continue to label her by is "arrogant" and "hypocrite". So something obviously went badly wrong in the portrayal of the character if she was not supposed to be either of these 2 things.

 

Oh I don't dispute that she has those qualities at times. But again as others have noted we see many characters with the same that are never commented on for some reason. What was soundly refuted is the overarching statement that she has "come to embody every negative trait of the WT, has an inability to relate to others, and thrives off her shortcomings. There have been various passages quoted of how hard she is working to change those issues with the WT and also instances have been highlighted in which she is aware of her shortcomings and is working on them. To make those statements one has to ignore hard evidence from the text.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

Maybe, but the labels of arrogant and hypocrite has been stuck most strongly onto Egwene and not the other characters.So obviously something went wrong in the character development.

[Entreri]

Egwene certainly fits these new AS mold and the Pattern choose the right woman.

 

A thoroughly dislikeable character.

[pilgram]

Problem with Egwene is that she is “gray” character in ridiculously black and white setting. And narrative refuses to acknowledge her moral ambiguity. She could be solid magnificent bastard in hands of some other writer, in some other series. But she is not, so she ends up as just a huge bastard. Ad to that spotlight steeling squad factor for her, supergirls and AS in general and fact that she is such humongous bastard (yes, I said that just sentence ago, but she is such a jerk that it warrants multiple mentions) all backlash is really no surprise. Concerning “Eghaters are just Randfanboyz” comments, I’d suppose that, yes, a number, probably a great number of those who like Rand dislike Egwene and vice versa, but criticism of Egwene goes beyond “Wah! She’s mean to may fav!” For me, what really drives the nail in is mixture of her obnoxious personality and storyarc that so thoroughly stretches suspension of disbelief and lasts so long.

[Elan Tedronai]

Problem with Egwene is that she is “gray” character in ridiculously black and white setting. And narrative refuses to acknowledge her moral ambiguity. She could be solid magnificent bastard in hands of some other writer, in some other series. But she is not, so she ends up as just a huge bastard. Ad to that spotlight steeling squad factor for her, supergirls and AS in general and fact that she is such humongous bastard (yes, I said that just sentence ago, but she is such a jerk that it warrants multiple mentions) all backlash is really no surprise. Concerning “Eghaters are just Randfanboyz” comments, I’d suppose that, yes, a number, probably a great number of those who like Rand dislike Egwene and vice versa, but criticism of Egwene goes beyond “Wah! She’s mean to may fav!” For me, what really drives the nail in is mixture of her obnoxious personality and storyarc that so thoroughly stretches suspension of disbelief and lasts so long.

 

Hallelaluyah the truth finally comes out. Grudgingly. Unfortunately it's all rand al thor fanboys. Not a number of them. And they know deep down inside even if they are afraid to admit it here on this mesage board. Dont be shy guys. Tell what's on your mind. State your allegience to the lord dragon. There's nothing to be ashamed off. Certainly not being called an al thor fanboy. Its better to be honest with people and yourselves rather than strike a cloak of being fair and unbiased. And making such ridiciulous reasons or excuses for egwene hate which has been debunked time and time again on this board.

 

As for suspension of disbelief, please, the most powerful forsaken in AOL falls three times to bumbling shepherder. Now that's suspension of disbelief or whatever you want to call it

Edited October 23, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[Sotir Tilev]

I haven't readed all the topic, mainly because it's hell of a topic and even more because I don't like Egwene and cannot stand more of words ment to awe her.

 

The main reason I don't like her it's because she is too much like 'All and mighty' Holywood character. Beware... she is talented, witty, strategic genious, beating Forsaken like walk in the park, outmaneuvre Aes Sedai that have been plotting for not decades, but centuries and still she is able to outplay them. Even more - she knows everything about Rand and Mat, and she knows what it's best for them. She knows what it's best for the Tower, for the Aiel, for the Kinwomen, for the king and queens, for her friends and for her. She knows what it's best for the world. I suppose she should meet the Creator and give him lesson or two about how to govern mindless creatures that all other people except Egwene are.

 

What conclusions I can make about the reasons I hate her from the above paragraph?

1. She is too arogant. To all and mighty, too knowing, too wise, to unqestionatable and such.

2. I don't like how she thinks that others don't live on the Earth and need to be guided with little babysteps, while the only one who doesn't walk on Earth is she. Seriously...

3. She learn to channel, to be Dreamwalker, to be Amyrlin, to be leader, to be the Pillar of the World in about a day. I don't buy that, sorry.

 

Look at Rand's arc. He have endured so much, strubled so much and he knows there are still leasons to be learned. But not Egwene.

 

Look at Mat. This guy have the greatest luck and the most advanced tactical knowedge there could be. And he still doubt half the things he can do with his ta`vereness, luck and knowedge combined. But not Egwene, she can do everything and she can do it twice as fast, twice better and twice cooler that Mat and Rand combined.

 

Look at Perrin. This guy have been to so much... He is the most moral one from the lot, maybe alongside Nynaeve( Rand and Mat too, but in different way) and still he question his abilities to cope with things, his ability to judge the right decision and right course. Like every one of us do, even if we feel confident, there is part of us that warn us we may not be right. But Egwene doesn't have that. She is 19-20 years old girl that can judge for everybody and everything and to be sure she is right, never questioning her ability to judge the situation or her right to judge at all.

 

What she cannot understand is that this is not her battle. It's Rand's battle. And even more - it's Rand and all of the others battle. It is not her right to meddle and make uninformed conclusion about Rand. If the Creator thought she should control the thiings, she would be the Dragon Reborn, not Rand. But she is not.

 

And I don't even want to compare her to Nynaeve. I hated Nynaeve from the begining, but she became awesome with the passing time. Egwene on other hand became totaly out of scenario character. Someone in first page had explained it well that thing. Egwene may represent the White Tower, but Rand and Nynaeve represent the good. Mat and Perrin too. They try to act right, even if they fail sometimes. But the author shows what their motivation is, what had bring them to soe decisions and why this was good or bad choice. You get involved with them, you can think like them and say 'Hey, that is so me'. But never with Egwene. Author never shows us her fails as it shows us other character's mistakes. Egwene makes mistakes, but who cares about them, she for instance don't care, because she don't have time for that - all her time is consumed to being awesome guild for the world.

 

I bet even DO isn't as arogant as Egwene. He wants to destroy the world. And he wants to control it. But he knows these people are there aren't witless and will do better and without him, and they won't be afraid to act against him. So he needs to destroy them. But Egwene can see in other people only mindless puppets, because apparantly she is the only one with enough sense to make out what is in the reality.

 

I cannot discuss well honestly. When I think abotu Egwene I am getting frustrated and cannot thing in a neutral way.

[muddasssir]

I have said it an million time in these discussions and I will say it again that she is a bitch and as for refuting all this it is just the Eggy fan boys and girls who think that anything was proved in favor of eggy. She is a poorly written and developed character if you want people to like her. I did a detailed post on this thread sometime ago and I am not going to do it all over again or maybe I will near the release of the book. As for Perrin and Rand whining, you have to understand that they are the characters that has behaved consistently through out unlike eggy who will change with the next change of dress. They have reasons for doing what they are doing all the characters had excellent character development except eggy. Don't get me started on it all over again. I know what I am rambling will make little or no sense to anyone. but thats just me

 

 

One of these days I am going to find time to do a detailed post on the eggy dearest. Mark my words.

[Suttree]

I have said it an million time in these discussions and I will say it again that she is a bitch and as for refuting all this it is just the Eggy fan boys and girls who think that anything was proved in favor of eggy.

 

And yet she isn't even in my top 5 characters and I was doing much of the refuting that she has "come to embody every negative trait of the WT, and thrives off her shortcomings, etc". Again there are concrete examples from the text blowing that statement out of the water. If you believe it to be true provide quotes in support or give over. Bottom line there is more than enough ammo to use against her without resorting to false claims. In addition going lowest common denominator calling out fanboism against either side has no place in the debate. It's what trolls like Elan stoop to when they are trying to get people riled up.

 

I bet even DO isn't as arogant as Egwene. He wants to destroy the world. And he wants to control it. But he knows these people are there aren't witless and will do better and without him, and they won't be afraid to act against him. So he needs to destroy them. But Egwene can see in other people only mindless puppets, because apparantly she is the only one with enough sense to make out what is in the reality.

 

I cannot discuss well honestly. When I think abotu Egwene I am getting frustrated and cannot thing in a neutral way.

 

You don't say.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Suttree

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

I bet even DO isn't as arogant as Egwene.

 

 

Not that I agree with the sentiment behind the statement, but it is probably technically true. The Do is entirely alien, and arrogance isn't in it's nature.

[GregerMoek]

Perhaps she's one of the future forsaken then? That'd be quite the twist! Trying to stop Rand in the last moment and gets sealed in with the DO and the rest of the living forsaken.

 

But Verin thought that only really selfish people would get that "chance" so I guess that won't happen.

 

Also, I think it's safe to assume that Bela is the dark-horse-friend here, she might've eaten some grass in Shadar Logoth or something.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont like Egwene and it has nothing to do with her attitude to Rand. I just dont like how she turned out as Amyrlin. The fact that she became Amyrlin at all annoys me. I think it would have been better if she had stuck to the Wise One side of it., chances are she wouldnt have become so hated.

[BFG]

I bet even DO isn't as arogant as Egwene.

 

 

Not that I agree with the sentiment behind the statement, but it is probably technically true. The Do is entirely alien, and arrogance isn't in it's nature.

 

LOL

 

Perhaps she's one of the future forsaken then? That'd be quite the twist! Trying to stop Rand in the last moment and gets sealed in with the DO and the rest of the living forsaken.

 

But Verin thought that only really selfish people would get that "chance" so I guess that won't happen.

 

Also, I think it's safe to assume that Bela is the dark-horse-friend here, she might've eaten some grass in Shadar Logoth or something.

 

Assuming this is the last battle of this turning (as name suggests) then their shouldn't be any Forsaken sealed in this time as nothing came out when the AoL AS drilled into it.

[GregerMoek]

But one can never be certain right? The Wheel Weaves as The Wheel Wills after all.

[BFG]

True, the Forsaken trapped near the surface had a pretty bad time if it, it's possible that over thousands of years (it was only 3000 from the initial bore) that anyone trapped would be consumed, wither away. How it's possible to explain Ishy's periodic release with the state of Aginor (trapped near surface) I really don't know.

 

I also think Eg becoming a Forsaken is a really cool idea - particularly given her state after Falme, but I think is unlikely to happen this late in the game.

[Feanor-X]

Which brings me back to an interesting new theory i have developed. Apart from the haters being rand al thor fanboys they also have developed this uncanny ability to gloss over anything and everything good the mother has done in the space of 6 books from the moment she was crowned amyrlin in salidar.

 

What has she actually done? Who is truly responsible for the "feats" that she accomplished? What "good" has she managed to do that she actually set out with the express purpose of doing in the first place? Egwene constantly blunders into situations that favor her, that she had no hand in setting up, and would enable her (or likely any other character in that situation) to shine. The real problem is that she is not directly responsible for any of her triumphs. The rebellion, being summoned to be amyrlin, her training as amyrlin, knowledge of white tower history and politics that she used to undermine Elaida - Mostly if not all Suan. The splitting of the tower in the first place, the division and cracks under Elaida - Alviarin. Getting into Tel'aran'rhiod in the first place, exposing the black ajah - Verin.

 

I'm almost convinced that she is either Ta'veren herself or she's unwittingly carrying around a Ter'angreal that attracts Deus Ex Machina.

[Suttree]

Which brings me back to an interesting new theory i have developed. Apart from the haters being rand al thor fanboys they also have developed this uncanny ability to gloss over anything and everything good the mother has done in the space of 6 books from the moment she was crowned amyrlin in salidar.

 

What has she actually done? Who is truly responsible for the "feats" that she accomplished? What "good" has she managed to do that she actually set out with the express purpose of doing in the first place? Egwene constantly blunders into situations that favor her, that she had no hand in setting up, and would enable her (or likely any other character in that situation) to shine. The real problem is that she is not directly responsible for any of her triumphs. The rebellion, being summoned to be amyrlin, her training as amyrlin, knowledge of white tower history and politics that she used to undermine Elaida - Mostly if not all Suan. The splitting of the tower in the first place, the division and cracks under Elaida - Alviarin. Getting into Tel'aran'rhiod in the first place, exposing the black ajah - Verin.

 

I'm almost convinced that she is either Ta'veren herself or she's unwittingly carrying around a Ter'angreal that attracts Deus Ex Machina.

 

What are you on about? Why would anyone list the rebellion, cracks caused by the forsaken/BA or her being named Amyrlin as "feats" she accomplished. Regardless from the moment they tried to make her a puppet she worked very hard to turn things around. She threw herself into studying the history of the WT as she has done everything else from using the OP, to dreamwalking. It is patently absurd to say she has had no hand in setting things up and to not give her credit during the imprisonment arc and overcoming Elaida. From that point she has done more in her short time as Amyrlin to change how the WT operates, than any other in thousands of years. It has been made clear the duty she feels to having the AS ready to face the shadow at TG. As stated above there are more than enough legit things to take shots at her about without resorting to ridiculous claims and attempting to invalidate things she has done. It's precisely those types of posts that distract from any type of realistic dialogue on the topic.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Suttree

[elric]

i feel the debate is railing into the extreme.

 

to say Egy did no good is rediculus.

 

she DID reunited the WT.

she DID HURT the black Aja

she DID destroyed a forsaken.

 

and she did have good scenes (the WT captivity /wise one training was the bests in my opinion).

 

but the fact that a char do good things DONT make it a likeable char.

 

compare Avi to Egy

Avi developed into a wise one.

she is respected but she DONT take over Amys , she show respect to the current wise one and acknowledge their age /experience and wisdom.

you can forsea that she will grow to be the next leader (probably hace relation with Amys like Amys have with Sur now), but her growth dont come in expence of others and you are shown her weaknesses and her streangth

 

Egy rosed by Siuan to be Emiralin, immidately bully into the position, start ordering everyone around.

after her rising Suian (decades of expewrience, leaving in Salidar for month , knowing all the key ppl for decades) tell her her plan which is almost exact (slightly better in few fine points) to the plan Egy who just arrived to Salidar and who hardly (if at all) know the key char come with.

 

another example -> Bridgette Silver bow a LEGENDARY hero of the horn, a LEGEND for milenias

avi reaction to Bridg -> respect mingled with determination to hold your own , mingled in awe

Egy reaction -> u stuipd girl hide it from me, now stop acting silly and confess.

 

i think Egy prob is not her beeing bage, but a lack of a co star.

 

think Nyn with and without Elain / Lan.

Think mat before and after Talmanes/Thom

Elain with and without Nyn/Avi

Siuan with and without Lean (sp?)

 

Egy need a character /PoV to balance her, to emphesize her glory and to point out her shortcoming and to ligh when she fall on her face becouse she kept her nose up.

Edited October 24, 2012 by elric

[Feanor-X]

Which brings me back to an interesting new theory i have developed. Apart from the haters being rand al thor fanboys they also have developed this uncanny ability to gloss over anything and everything good the mother has done in the space of 6 books from the moment she was crowned amyrlin in salidar.

 

What has she actually done? Who is truly responsible for the "feats" that she accomplished? What "good" has she managed to do that she actually set out with the express purpose of doing in the first place? Egwene constantly blunders into situations that favor her, that she had no hand in setting up, and would enable her (or likely any other character in that situation) to shine. The real problem is that she is not directly responsible for any of her triumphs. The rebellion, being summoned to be amyrlin, her training as amyrlin, knowledge of white tower history and politics that she used to undermine Elaida - Mostly if not all Suan. The splitting of the tower in the first place, the division and cracks under Elaida - Alviarin. Getting into Tel'aran'rhiod in the first place, exposing the black ajah - Verin.

 

I'm almost convinced that she is either Ta'veren herself or she's unwittingly carrying around a Ter'angreal that attracts Deus Ex Machina.

 

What are you on about? Why would anyone list the rebellion, cracks caused by the forsaken/BA or her being named Amyrlin as "feats" she accomplished. Regardless from the moment they tried to make her a puppet she worked very hard to turn things around. She threw herself into studying the history of the WT as she has done everything else from using the OP, to dreamwalking. It is patently absurd to say she has had no hand in setting things up and to not give her credit during the imprisonment arc and overcoming Elaida. From that point she has done more in her short time as Amyrlin to change how the WT operates, than any other in thousands of years. It has been made clear the duty she feels to having the AS ready to face the shadow at TG. As stated above there are more than enough legit things to take shots at her about without resorting to ridiculous claims and attempting to invalidate things she has done. It's precisely those types of posts that distract from any type of realistic dialogue on the topic.

 

No, I'm not calling the rebellion, the Ajah divisions, or being named Amrylin-because-several-factions-in-Salidar-wanted-a-puppet things she accomplished. I'm calling them situations that she blundered into that could not have been better set up to facilitate her meteoric rise! (Mary Sue)

 

Yes, she threw herself into training to be Amrylin, the same as she threw herself into everything else she's ever done in her life - with psychotically single-minded focus, completely ignoring/forgetting/belittling what she was doing up to that point. ADD or Asperger's she's got it in spades.

 

For that matter, what exactly has she done as Amrylin of the re-united White Tower? What vast and far reaching changes has she made, aside from one adjustment to tower law that prevents political backstabbing? That is not an epic change, it's something that should have been done centuries ago, and probably would have been had not the people in question been so invested in political backstabbing, double-dealing, and amassing personal power.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Feanor-X

[Knivy]

I dont hate the Egghead(or any other character , specially when I am reading the books. It is only when threads like this come up and I am forced to think about it that I dont like her. She sheds skin too easily, to quickly, to perfectly for my tastes. The pattern most definitely set everything up for her to succeed, and with as little actual adverse conditions opposing her as possible. In this, I am referring to her Salidar and Tower workings. Before this, everything was laughably easy for her (when considering what normally would be the conditions).

 

Her capture by the Seanchan was rough, but she made no wins in that, that was Ellie and Nyn's work that got her out (along with the Whitecloaks and Heroes).

 

Her little Black Ajah hunt was pathetically easy. You are three barely trained girls chasing 13 full AS, and an unknown amount of other darkfriends/servants/guards. After the initial confrontation(where they have the surprise) any 4 of those BA should have been able to handle the girls. And look at that, they got caught(should have logically been killed, but whatever), only got out because of the Aiel/Rand/Mat+Julian.

 

Her training under the Wise Ones wasn't a challenge. It was hard, but not something anyone else with the dreaming talent couldn't do (Im not sure how much her lie affected her acceptance into their tutelage, but I dont see why they would mind if she had only been a apprentice)

 

Salidar was ripe for to take control. The two factions either would have crushed her or crushed each other under her, which they did. If there had been more of a focus on controlling her than frivolous pokes between the groups.

 

Upon her arrival in the Tower, it is already fragmented, close to splitting into 6 different Towers. Elaida was messed up by Fain and essentially powerless until she got rid of Allavarin (and even then not entirely). Even counting all of that, she seems pretty pathetic for the ambassador to Andor and a woman seen worthy by Sitters to rule as the Watcher of the (broken) Seals.

 

Her manipulation of the Hall into giving her sole control of dealings with Rand was so transparent, and I dont have 200 years of political background behind me. I think this was Brandon's, but I doubt anyone could have written that end result in a way that didn't make the sitters look pathetic.

 

 

Sutt, you are the only person I have ever met that uses the word patently as you do. Its interesting

Edited October 24, 2012 by Knivy