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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

pilgram

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  1. Can someone tell me do those missing days from Rands’ ToM storyline from Ebou Dar to Maradon get addressed in AMOL? Is there any explanation for what was he doing then? Flashbacks or mentions in conversations? Anything?
  2. There is ongoing discussion in tread Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal) that touches upon maters of strength and dexterity. I’d like to ask if somebody can provide me with more information on subject: are there any Words of Creators on relation of strength and dexterity? I mean are they proportional (greater the strength greater the dexterity) or are they independent (strong channeler can be of low dexterity, dexterous can be off limited strength) of each other? To clarify: I’m only interested in quotes of RJ, BS and Team Jordan, not anything off fandom.
  3. To answer the original question most infuriating moment in books for me would be Elaynes’ behavior in her conversation with Mat in ACOS Ch. 38. There she, assuming that Mat “forced his attention” on Tylin goes (understandably) ballistic on him, but after finding out that situation was reversed she find it actually funny and teases Mat for his predicament. Now, telling victim of sexual harassment/assault that what happened to them is actually pretty funny is low in it self however she managed to top it by suggesting it only 3 paragraphs after throwing a rant how crapy and intolerable such acts are. I’m really baffled at what was RJ thinking here. I read some comments of his about it and frankly weren’t satisfied with them. Beside this there were two more moments worth mentioning in this tread. First is that infamous scene with Egwene and Nynaeve in TAR in TFOH. The second is that bit with Rand in KOD when he decree that 47 Dedicated and Soldiers will be bonded by AS as way of appeasing them for those captured in TPOD. I know that RJ wanted to bring AS and AM together and that this was his way to get there but, damn. In my book that was most dickish thing that Rand have ever done. Those were his followers, his people who left their lives to support him and most of whom didn’t volunteered to or wanted to channel and have sacrificed plenty for him already yet he tossed them to thing he himself found deeply traumatic, persistently uncomfortable and intrusive. Whenever he thinks of his bond to Alana we see that he wants to be released from it, but we don’t see him give second thought on how would D/S feel or react to his decision. And he never gets called out on that by anyone. Once again, I know that RJ wanted to bring AS and AM together and that this was his way to get there but, damn.
  4. Problem with Egwene is that she is “gray” character in ridiculously black and white setting. And narrative refuses to acknowledge her moral ambiguity. She could be solid magnificent bastard in hands of some other writer, in some other series. But she is not, so she ends up as just a huge bastard. Ad to that spotlight steeling squad factor for her, supergirls and AS in general and fact that she is such humongous bastard (yes, I said that just sentence ago, but she is such a jerk that it warrants multiple mentions) all backlash is really no surprise. Concerning “Eghaters are just Randfanboyz” comments, I’d suppose that, yes, a number, probably a great number of those who like Rand dislike Egwene and vice versa, but criticism of Egwene goes beyond “Wah! She’s mean to may fav!” For me, what really drives the nail in is mixture of her obnoxious personality and storyarc that so thoroughly stretches suspension of disbelief and lasts so long.
  5. Not to be a D%%k or anything, but reading this line in itself is hilarious. I asked myself - if the books were very clear, we wouldnt have this forum to discuss it. I am actually one that wants proof the Aiel Killed Laman - which aiel was it? There is no where that it mentions they actually killed him. Sure they loot his body, but did they stab him? Is it too far fetched to think, Laman ran to Tar Valon seeking sanctuary, and got killed by Tam on the mountain while defending the king of illian from a crazed rabid Laman? Yes, yes it is.
  6. DoS lasted for 4 years, were founded by 2 Accepted put out of Tower, had 23 regruted women. How would similar organization – numbering around 2 dozens channelers with core of 1- 3 former Accepted and at least 5-6 Accepted level women – influenced events on eve (or rather dawn) of Seanchan invasion and later?
  7. AS support many thrones. They supported Morgase for instance, it certainly doesn't mean Siuan was trying to annex the land for the WT as Nial attempted to do in the WC war and on the plain. Support and Nial's actions are two very different things. Yes, AS only wanted to support throne of Murandy, just as Catherine the Great only wanted to support crown and independence of Poland … by installing Stanislav Poniatovsky (spelling) for king. Again, we don’t actually know more than bare minimum about WC War, we don’t even know what was WC publicly stated purpose. Was it to annex territories of Altara to Amadicia? To unite Altara under pro-children ruler (and eventually reduce it to position of Amadica’s)? To take control outright, as was Niall planed for Almoth Plain? (IMO least likely, G. Bornhald was at lost of what LCC was trying to achieve and it seems likely that if CotL same thing in Altara he would be able to connect dots) And yes, Siuan as well as Tamra Ospenya for that matter didn’t want to annex Andor, they wanted it to have a queen that would do as WT says. Main difference, I think, between ways WT and CotL operate is that WT concentrates on upper-most tier of society: rulers, nobles and high dignitaries, and maintains its control through Daes Daemar, vast financial resources, its reputation, but most of all knowledge that they are wielders of One Power. Compared to them CotL are underdogs, they lag behind WT in most mentioned areas except OP which they don’t have at all and have to substitute it with military power, which all nations and nobles have on their disposal (including WT but although Tower Guard is fairly decent army and can take on CotL in need is still of tertiary importance to them and not worthy of being mentioned amongst their top resources). Only area where CotL have something of advantage over WT is membership but if we look at what 1000+ well educated channelers who can live for over 200 years can do and what several thousands regular human soldiers can do we see that it is not really much of the advantage. So in order to be of significance they had to adapt different tactics. In other words, when Amyrlin wants to change a rulers politics she sends one (or more) sister to deliver promises of support or treats, veiled or unveiled, to cause a strife amongst nobility and perhaps bankers and merchants, and all that is underlined with knowledge that woman before them is practically untouchable because she channels One Power and there are thousand like her behind her whereas he has none. When LCC wants to change a rulers politics he has to send hundreds if not thousands soldiers so that his emissaries could deliver similar speeches to rulers and nobles and bankers and merchants, and to try and engineer public opinion of common folk as additional mean of pressure but everything he can throw at them they already have. It’s not like he can send captains to beat the crap from uncooperative rulers while their guard stands around unable to act. To sum up: WT has huge advantage that allows it to acts smoother but not innately different from CotL.
  8. All people treated equal? You must be joking. Even if we set aside damane they have a very stratified system. Nobles kill people for looking them in the eye. Seekers kidnap and torture at the merest sign I dissent. The prospect for advancement is so low that families sell future generations into slavery to even have a shot at moving forward. Only the top % of hereditary slaves have any position of respect. The others can be torn from their families and sold like cattle. Further the land mass is not united, that's propaganda put forth by the empire. We know in fact Karede has put down "numerous rebellions" just in his time with the guard. We see seekers talking of "sedition" in various districts. The stability that supposedly comes at the cost of personnel freedom is in actuality a lie. So no things don't look all that good on paper. I used the Aleis example as thisguy earlier in the thread used it as an example of her rudeness. It is frequently brought up as one before fans realize it was all a plan to spring Rand. I was taking the scene as a whole of which that quote is the end as evidence for my point. IIRC Siuan did not order him in those raids. she supported him for the throne because he was charismatic and he got himself killed raiding. Further Andor and Murandy has been at that for generations. It's not as it it was some AS plot. As for Nial he thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH. It was a power grab for those lands on the plain that no ruler controlled. Actually, we don’t know that he was charismatic, we only know that he was young, Murandian, noble, picked by Tower and that Bryne thought that he was on Siuans’ string and wondered if he could provide solders. His importance, influence and notability could be best evaluated through this fact: First Prince of the Sword at the time, who by nature of his post ought to be well informed of political and military matters alongside Andors borders at least, neither recognizes his name or knows fact that he is dead. We haven’t seen her admitting that she outright ordered him to attack Andoran territory, and I don’t think that she necessarily did, or indeed had to – it would be enough to assure him in Tower support and encourage him to take actions that would increase his standing amongst Murandian nobility. What we do know for sure is that she chose to press Morgase not to defend her country instead to press Dulain to stop attacks, which she certainly could – its’ easier to press relatively unknown noble than reigning queen. Besides, I doubt that WT would give its support in such matter to person not willing to give way to their demands. It was certainly AS plot and power grab – to put their favorite on throne and control Murandy through him. And one question what do you mean by “Nial thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH “?
  9. What is this in reference to? What about Siuan? It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name. Ah the Murandian Siuan wanted to put on the throne that was killed in a raid? Murandy as a nation has a "troubled" history and I'm sure Siuan was looking for a way to provide stability. No one has said they are infallible but again we know from RJ's notes that Cads' track record is legit. When you spoke of atrocities Niall committed I assumed that you meant his plans for Murandy and Altara - the brigands and Dragonsworn he commanded Carridin to usher as well as what WC sent to Almoth Plain in TGH did. Now, what do you think "raid" is? Because I think that Dulain was crossing border and assaulting, pillaging and killing andorans until he was ignominiously slain. Which is not really different from what WC did, and as Siuan had him doing those things (picked by the Tower to unite Murandy, remember?) well... pot meet kettle. And Niall was definitely trying to provide stability and unity of humanity before large scale invasion of Shadowspawn - we see that in his POV in prologue of TDR.
  10. What is this in reference to? What about Siuan? It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name.
  11. Not sure what you are referring to? Regardless we know per RJ that her reputation is solid and has been earned. Not only where the stories true but in most cases were more than the story told. I understand some people don't like her but the facts are she is a throw back to what Greens are supposed to be and doesn't let WT politics get in the way of her doing good for the light. Again this comes straight from the author. That is why I don' understand thisguy's point above. We know Cads's track record for the light means she has earned her reputation. On the flip Nial has actually commited atrocities to further his cause. It doesn't matter how the WCs view him, we as readers know the truth of it. If Nial had magical ability that would allow him to walk in on heads of states and beat them until they oblige to his demands, do you think he would still use tactics we saw him use? And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)
  12. Oath of fealty Egwene extracted was definitely about obedience, not establishing her authority. Her threats to Lelaine and Romanda after War vote were along that line, but oath was about them obeying what she orders them to do. To help you with numbers it was 2 AS that volunteered (Faolain and Theodrin) and 7 (Nisao and SS) that she blackmailed and there is no “ ” about it. She threatened to expose their cover operation (sending group off sisters to Tower to spread information - most likely fabricated by Siuan, yes, but believed to be true – without informing Hall due to fear of possible moles from either Shadow or Tower, both of which turn out to be correct, I just felt it was necessary to emphasis that) thus subjecting them to purely political reprisal from rival factions eager to bring them down. She may not have gotten total obedience, but those 7 she blackmailed have to do what she says although they demonstratively don’t want to. Just because she didn’t magically compelled them doesn’t mean that she didn’t compelled them at all. Comparing what Egwene did and what Elaida did and putting it in context would be like this: Egwene, through illegal means (blackmail), forced prominent members of her organization and her opposition into submission in order to straighten her political position. Elaida dreamed, fantasized, mused and to my recollection mentioned aloud twice (with Meidani and later during diner with Sitters – diners seems to be unfortunate meals for her) her desire to make amendment of sort to laws of WT and AS giving office she held unprecedented authority, in order to straighten her political position. Without making any actual steps to that goal (again to my recollection). Or to make this analogy: Elaida can be likened to a president who, faced with hostile Congress thinks “Damn, I really wish that I can pass laws by decree” while Egwene in that situation have her chief of stuff catch leaders of strongest faction in Congress in some wrongdoing, invites them in her office, presents her information and says: “From now on you vote as I say or this is going public”. And the kicker: she does the same sort of things. As for your claim that allegiance to the Amyrlin is allegiance to the White Tower so there is no contradiction I would say that I most strongly disagree. Head of organization/state is not the same as organization/state. After all Amyrlin is mundanely elected official, not divinely appointed one or hereditary despot as Empress for that matter.
  13. Hmm, I suppose I never saw those situations as quite so dangerous. I figured both the Aiel and Logain would deal acting with it and move on, because the alternative isn't really a good one. Whether they like it or not Rand is the key to victory so unless they want to lose they should probably stand by him. Even if Rand is acting like a fool (not to mention a complete ass, especially towards the Aiel). Incidentally, no, Logain would not have had time enough to leave, the shadow attacked right afterwards. I agree that the moment with the Aiel was one of Cadsuane's best moments. The scene in Tear as well, although I admit I was rather annoyed with her because at least Rand and Logain were talking about the whole BT situation, and not pretending it didn't exist. And she kind of cut it short. Well actually she just told them to be polite but it had the same result. Also I always found it was funny how she's asking them to be polite to each other. I get why she asks it but still. Possibly a big shadow infestation in the BT, one of the worst thing that could have happened, and you want them to talk nicely to each other? Yeah, not gonna happen. Well, I don't understand what was she (and the rest for that mater) even doing there in the first place. That was decisively BT business and discussing it before prominent member(s) of second-most hostile organization (first being the Shadow) certainly wouldn't convince Logain that Rand has best interests of Asha'man at heart or, given the topic of conversation, that he gives a damn at all. Further, the way she decided to participate in conversation was unhelpful, confrontational and undermining towards Rand.
  14. Since this turned into a Cadsuane tread I’m going to ask this: the reason for her and Rands’ first meeting to end as it had – her not being thrown out, or banished, or whole encounter ending in OP confrontation or some similar disaster is due primary to Rands’ specific cultural conditioning as TR man and both his unwillingness to harm or mistreat (elderly) woman and unwillingness to insist on respecting his position as leader\ruler (which I assume to come from egalitarianism and inexistence of state in his homeland as well as his personality). However it doesn’t seem that she was aware of those constraints of his, so her overbearing entrance comes like quite a gamble on her part; at least to me. Further more, her gambit later on was successful due to number of things she couldn’t possible count on when making her initial plan: Mins’ viewing, help she gave to Rand in the rebel camp, and honestly, quite a big idiot ball RJ gave Rand in their dealings. So, her plans was really faulty, and have worked a much as it did more because authorial fiat of RJ, pardon, Pattern rather than anything else, right?
  15. Then that candidate would have a secure base in Caemlyn with zero hold on the rest of the nation. In addition they would still need to secure the proper votes from the high seats. That can hardly be called being handed the throne. Once again I have provided quotes where Rand says he does not rule in Andor and yet you continue to hold to your own personnel opinion instead of what is written. By his own admission he didn't conquer Andor and on he only ever controlled Caemlyn which is far short of "owning" Andor. He can not control the High Seats and they have shown willigness to resist him should he try. I have admitted numerous times that Rand policed the capital for a time. People seem to forget that Dyelin was also putting down rebellions and arresting false claims in other parts of the country. It is made clear that Andorans would not throw their support behind Rand trying to "install" anyone. A unified front when faced with a foreign threat attempting to install a ruler is just about gauraunteed. I do agree with you however on your comment about Rand. He most likely could have defeated anything Andor(although all together hey have the largest military outside of Seanchan) would have thrown against him. That as has been mentioned many times however would have been a disaster and an utterly phyrric victory with TG approaching. I haven’t imagined it as him gathering nobles, bringing out his candidate and proceeding to put Rose crown on her head and say: “Here’s your Queen!” What I had in mind was him appointing steward of Andor or administrator as he did with Dobraine and Berelain in Cairhien. Such person would have good will of Dragon behind it, but could still gather support for new monarch: perhaps herself, perhaps its wife or daughter, or granddaughter (I remember Elayne mentioning possibility of Pelivar having ambitions in name of his granddaughters). Also Rand could provide traveling to his candidate allowing for gathering support and presenting itself to nation as Elayne did in COT. In that scenario Andorans would not be nearly as provoked as in upper case. And Rand could have defeated anything Andor cold throw against him period. What he had in Caemlyn when we first see him in LOC: Aiels under Bael and Saldeans under Basher together with his channeling was enough to hold city against anything that high seats could realistically brought in field at a time. Full strength of Goshien, one more clan and Taim added and he would wipe the floor with anything Andorans had. On a mater of military might of Andor I would like to say that, personally I think that any Borderland nation have stronger army. Elayne claims that united Andor could nearly match number of Borderlanders in south, but that there would be lot of untrained, too old or to young soldiers. On the other hand all four monarch brought with them approximately 50 000 soldiers and still left enough to take care of usual level of Troloc incursion. In case of emergency and large scale mobilization they could probably raise more quality soldiers than Andor. Narishma, I think, says something in line of every Borderlander being as good soldier as actual soldiers in south of pure necessity in tGS. Concerning problems and conflict that such policy of Rand would caused I’d remind you that at the end there was civil war anyway, and that there were nobles ready to start it even if he left immediately after killing Rahvin, even if Elayne came shortly after as Master Ablar have mentioned.
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