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Everything posted by pilgram

  1. Can someone tell me do those missing days from Rands’ ToM storyline from Ebou Dar to Maradon get addressed in AMOL? Is there any explanation for what was he doing then? Flashbacks or mentions in conversations? Anything?
  2. There is ongoing discussion in tread Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal) that touches upon maters of strength and dexterity. I’d like to ask if somebody can provide me with more information on subject: are there any Words of Creators on relation of strength and dexterity? I mean are they proportional (greater the strength greater the dexterity) or are they independent (strong channeler can be of low dexterity, dexterous can be off limited strength) of each other? To clarify: I’m only interested in quotes of RJ, BS and Team Jordan, not anything off fandom.
  3. To answer the original question most infuriating moment in books for me would be Elaynes’ behavior in her conversation with Mat in ACOS Ch. 38. There she, assuming that Mat “forced his attention” on Tylin goes (understandably) ballistic on him, but after finding out that situation was reversed she find it actually funny and teases Mat for his predicament. Now, telling victim of sexual harassment/assault that what happened to them is actually pretty funny is low in it self however she managed to top it by suggesting it only 3 paragraphs after throwing a rant how crapy and intolerable such acts are. I’m really baffled at what was RJ thinking here. I read some comments of his about it and frankly weren’t satisfied with them. Beside this there were two more moments worth mentioning in this tread. First is that infamous scene with Egwene and Nynaeve in TAR in TFOH. The second is that bit with Rand in KOD when he decree that 47 Dedicated and Soldiers will be bonded by AS as way of appeasing them for those captured in TPOD. I know that RJ wanted to bring AS and AM together and that this was his way to get there but, damn. In my book that was most dickish thing that Rand have ever done. Those were his followers, his people who left their lives to support him and most of whom didn’t volunteered to or wanted to channel and have sacrificed plenty for him already yet he tossed them to thing he himself found deeply traumatic, persistently uncomfortable and intrusive. Whenever he thinks of his bond to Alana we see that he wants to be released from it, but we don’t see him give second thought on how would D/S feel or react to his decision. And he never gets called out on that by anyone. Once again, I know that RJ wanted to bring AS and AM together and that this was his way to get there but, damn.
  4. Problem with Egwene is that she is “gray” character in ridiculously black and white setting. And narrative refuses to acknowledge her moral ambiguity. She could be solid magnificent bastard in hands of some other writer, in some other series. But she is not, so she ends up as just a huge bastard. Ad to that spotlight steeling squad factor for her, supergirls and AS in general and fact that she is such humongous bastard (yes, I said that just sentence ago, but she is such a jerk that it warrants multiple mentions) all backlash is really no surprise. Concerning “Eghaters are just Randfanboyz” comments, I’d suppose that, yes, a number, probably a great number of those who like Rand dislike Egwene and vice versa, but criticism of Egwene goes beyond “Wah! She’s mean to may fav!” For me, what really drives the nail in is mixture of her obnoxious personality and storyarc that so thoroughly stretches suspension of disbelief and lasts so long.
  5. Not to be a D%%k or anything, but reading this line in itself is hilarious. I asked myself - if the books were very clear, we wouldnt have this forum to discuss it. I am actually one that wants proof the Aiel Killed Laman - which aiel was it? There is no where that it mentions they actually killed him. Sure they loot his body, but did they stab him? Is it too far fetched to think, Laman ran to Tar Valon seeking sanctuary, and got killed by Tam on the mountain while defending the king of illian from a crazed rabid Laman? Yes, yes it is.
  6. DoS lasted for 4 years, were founded by 2 Accepted put out of Tower, had 23 regruted women. How would similar organization – numbering around 2 dozens channelers with core of 1- 3 former Accepted and at least 5-6 Accepted level women – influenced events on eve (or rather dawn) of Seanchan invasion and later?
  7. AS support many thrones. They supported Morgase for instance, it certainly doesn't mean Siuan was trying to annex the land for the WT as Nial attempted to do in the WC war and on the plain. Support and Nial's actions are two very different things. Yes, AS only wanted to support throne of Murandy, just as Catherine the Great only wanted to support crown and independence of Poland … by installing Stanislav Poniatovsky (spelling) for king. Again, we don’t actually know more than bare minimum about WC War, we don’t even know what was WC publicly stated purpose. Was it to annex territories of Altara to Amadicia? To unite Altara under pro-children ruler (and eventually reduce it to position of Amadica’s)? To take control outright, as was Niall planed for Almoth Plain? (IMO least likely, G. Bornhald was at lost of what LCC was trying to achieve and it seems likely that if CotL same thing in Altara he would be able to connect dots) And yes, Siuan as well as Tamra Ospenya for that matter didn’t want to annex Andor, they wanted it to have a queen that would do as WT says. Main difference, I think, between ways WT and CotL operate is that WT concentrates on upper-most tier of society: rulers, nobles and high dignitaries, and maintains its control through Daes Daemar, vast financial resources, its reputation, but most of all knowledge that they are wielders of One Power. Compared to them CotL are underdogs, they lag behind WT in most mentioned areas except OP which they don’t have at all and have to substitute it with military power, which all nations and nobles have on their disposal (including WT but although Tower Guard is fairly decent army and can take on CotL in need is still of tertiary importance to them and not worthy of being mentioned amongst their top resources). Only area where CotL have something of advantage over WT is membership but if we look at what 1000+ well educated channelers who can live for over 200 years can do and what several thousands regular human soldiers can do we see that it is not really much of the advantage. So in order to be of significance they had to adapt different tactics. In other words, when Amyrlin wants to change a rulers politics she sends one (or more) sister to deliver promises of support or treats, veiled or unveiled, to cause a strife amongst nobility and perhaps bankers and merchants, and all that is underlined with knowledge that woman before them is practically untouchable because she channels One Power and there are thousand like her behind her whereas he has none. When LCC wants to change a rulers politics he has to send hundreds if not thousands soldiers so that his emissaries could deliver similar speeches to rulers and nobles and bankers and merchants, and to try and engineer public opinion of common folk as additional mean of pressure but everything he can throw at them they already have. It’s not like he can send captains to beat the crap from uncooperative rulers while their guard stands around unable to act. To sum up: WT has huge advantage that allows it to acts smoother but not innately different from CotL.
  8. All people treated equal? You must be joking. Even if we set aside damane they have a very stratified system. Nobles kill people for looking them in the eye. Seekers kidnap and torture at the merest sign I dissent. The prospect for advancement is so low that families sell future generations into slavery to even have a shot at moving forward. Only the top % of hereditary slaves have any position of respect. The others can be torn from their families and sold like cattle. Further the land mass is not united, that's propaganda put forth by the empire. We know in fact Karede has put down "numerous rebellions" just in his time with the guard. We see seekers talking of "sedition" in various districts. The stability that supposedly comes at the cost of personnel freedom is in actuality a lie. So no things don't look all that good on paper. I used the Aleis example as thisguy earlier in the thread used it as an example of her rudeness. It is frequently brought up as one before fans realize it was all a plan to spring Rand. I was taking the scene as a whole of which that quote is the end as evidence for my point. IIRC Siuan did not order him in those raids. she supported him for the throne because he was charismatic and he got himself killed raiding. Further Andor and Murandy has been at that for generations. It's not as it it was some AS plot. As for Nial he thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH. It was a power grab for those lands on the plain that no ruler controlled. Actually, we don’t know that he was charismatic, we only know that he was young, Murandian, noble, picked by Tower and that Bryne thought that he was on Siuans’ string and wondered if he could provide solders. His importance, influence and notability could be best evaluated through this fact: First Prince of the Sword at the time, who by nature of his post ought to be well informed of political and military matters alongside Andors borders at least, neither recognizes his name or knows fact that he is dead. We haven’t seen her admitting that she outright ordered him to attack Andoran territory, and I don’t think that she necessarily did, or indeed had to – it would be enough to assure him in Tower support and encourage him to take actions that would increase his standing amongst Murandian nobility. What we do know for sure is that she chose to press Morgase not to defend her country instead to press Dulain to stop attacks, which she certainly could – its’ easier to press relatively unknown noble than reigning queen. Besides, I doubt that WT would give its support in such matter to person not willing to give way to their demands. It was certainly AS plot and power grab – to put their favorite on throne and control Murandy through him. And one question what do you mean by “Nial thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH “?
  9. What is this in reference to? What about Siuan? It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name. Ah the Murandian Siuan wanted to put on the throne that was killed in a raid? Murandy as a nation has a "troubled" history and I'm sure Siuan was looking for a way to provide stability. No one has said they are infallible but again we know from RJ's notes that Cads' track record is legit. When you spoke of atrocities Niall committed I assumed that you meant his plans for Murandy and Altara - the brigands and Dragonsworn he commanded Carridin to usher as well as what WC sent to Almoth Plain in TGH did. Now, what do you think "raid" is? Because I think that Dulain was crossing border and assaulting, pillaging and killing andorans until he was ignominiously slain. Which is not really different from what WC did, and as Siuan had him doing those things (picked by the Tower to unite Murandy, remember?) well... pot meet kettle. And Niall was definitely trying to provide stability and unity of humanity before large scale invasion of Shadowspawn - we see that in his POV in prologue of TDR.
  10. What is this in reference to? What about Siuan? It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name.
  11. Not sure what you are referring to? Regardless we know per RJ that her reputation is solid and has been earned. Not only where the stories true but in most cases were more than the story told. I understand some people don't like her but the facts are she is a throw back to what Greens are supposed to be and doesn't let WT politics get in the way of her doing good for the light. Again this comes straight from the author. That is why I don' understand thisguy's point above. We know Cads's track record for the light means she has earned her reputation. On the flip Nial has actually commited atrocities to further his cause. It doesn't matter how the WCs view him, we as readers know the truth of it. If Nial had magical ability that would allow him to walk in on heads of states and beat them until they oblige to his demands, do you think he would still use tactics we saw him use? And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)
  12. Oath of fealty Egwene extracted was definitely about obedience, not establishing her authority. Her threats to Lelaine and Romanda after War vote were along that line, but oath was about them obeying what she orders them to do. To help you with numbers it was 2 AS that volunteered (Faolain and Theodrin) and 7 (Nisao and SS) that she blackmailed and there is no “ ” about it. She threatened to expose their cover operation (sending group off sisters to Tower to spread information - most likely fabricated by Siuan, yes, but believed to be true – without informing Hall due to fear of possible moles from either Shadow or Tower, both of which turn out to be correct, I just felt it was necessary to emphasis that) thus subjecting them to purely political reprisal from rival factions eager to bring them down. She may not have gotten total obedience, but those 7 she blackmailed have to do what she says although they demonstratively don’t want to. Just because she didn’t magically compelled them doesn’t mean that she didn’t compelled them at all. Comparing what Egwene did and what Elaida did and putting it in context would be like this: Egwene, through illegal means (blackmail), forced prominent members of her organization and her opposition into submission in order to straighten her political position. Elaida dreamed, fantasized, mused and to my recollection mentioned aloud twice (with Meidani and later during diner with Sitters – diners seems to be unfortunate meals for her) her desire to make amendment of sort to laws of WT and AS giving office she held unprecedented authority, in order to straighten her political position. Without making any actual steps to that goal (again to my recollection). Or to make this analogy: Elaida can be likened to a president who, faced with hostile Congress thinks “Damn, I really wish that I can pass laws by decree” while Egwene in that situation have her chief of stuff catch leaders of strongest faction in Congress in some wrongdoing, invites them in her office, presents her information and says: “From now on you vote as I say or this is going public”. And the kicker: she does the same sort of things. As for your claim that allegiance to the Amyrlin is allegiance to the White Tower so there is no contradiction I would say that I most strongly disagree. Head of organization/state is not the same as organization/state. After all Amyrlin is mundanely elected official, not divinely appointed one or hereditary despot as Empress for that matter.
  13. Hmm, I suppose I never saw those situations as quite so dangerous. I figured both the Aiel and Logain would deal acting with it and move on, because the alternative isn't really a good one. Whether they like it or not Rand is the key to victory so unless they want to lose they should probably stand by him. Even if Rand is acting like a fool (not to mention a complete ass, especially towards the Aiel). Incidentally, no, Logain would not have had time enough to leave, the shadow attacked right afterwards. I agree that the moment with the Aiel was one of Cadsuane's best moments. The scene in Tear as well, although I admit I was rather annoyed with her because at least Rand and Logain were talking about the whole BT situation, and not pretending it didn't exist. And she kind of cut it short. Well actually she just told them to be polite but it had the same result. Also I always found it was funny how she's asking them to be polite to each other. I get why she asks it but still. Possibly a big shadow infestation in the BT, one of the worst thing that could have happened, and you want them to talk nicely to each other? Yeah, not gonna happen. Well, I don't understand what was she (and the rest for that mater) even doing there in the first place. That was decisively BT business and discussing it before prominent member(s) of second-most hostile organization (first being the Shadow) certainly wouldn't convince Logain that Rand has best interests of Asha'man at heart or, given the topic of conversation, that he gives a damn at all. Further, the way she decided to participate in conversation was unhelpful, confrontational and undermining towards Rand.
  14. Since this turned into a Cadsuane tread I’m going to ask this: the reason for her and Rands’ first meeting to end as it had – her not being thrown out, or banished, or whole encounter ending in OP confrontation or some similar disaster is due primary to Rands’ specific cultural conditioning as TR man and both his unwillingness to harm or mistreat (elderly) woman and unwillingness to insist on respecting his position as leader\ruler (which I assume to come from egalitarianism and inexistence of state in his homeland as well as his personality). However it doesn’t seem that she was aware of those constraints of his, so her overbearing entrance comes like quite a gamble on her part; at least to me. Further more, her gambit later on was successful due to number of things she couldn’t possible count on when making her initial plan: Mins’ viewing, help she gave to Rand in the rebel camp, and honestly, quite a big idiot ball RJ gave Rand in their dealings. So, her plans was really faulty, and have worked a much as it did more because authorial fiat of RJ, pardon, Pattern rather than anything else, right?
  15. Then that candidate would have a secure base in Caemlyn with zero hold on the rest of the nation. In addition they would still need to secure the proper votes from the high seats. That can hardly be called being handed the throne. Once again I have provided quotes where Rand says he does not rule in Andor and yet you continue to hold to your own personnel opinion instead of what is written. By his own admission he didn't conquer Andor and on he only ever controlled Caemlyn which is far short of "owning" Andor. He can not control the High Seats and they have shown willigness to resist him should he try. I have admitted numerous times that Rand policed the capital for a time. People seem to forget that Dyelin was also putting down rebellions and arresting false claims in other parts of the country. It is made clear that Andorans would not throw their support behind Rand trying to "install" anyone. A unified front when faced with a foreign threat attempting to install a ruler is just about gauraunteed. I do agree with you however on your comment about Rand. He most likely could have defeated anything Andor(although all together hey have the largest military outside of Seanchan) would have thrown against him. That as has been mentioned many times however would have been a disaster and an utterly phyrric victory with TG approaching. I haven’t imagined it as him gathering nobles, bringing out his candidate and proceeding to put Rose crown on her head and say: “Here’s your Queen!” What I had in mind was him appointing steward of Andor or administrator as he did with Dobraine and Berelain in Cairhien. Such person would have good will of Dragon behind it, but could still gather support for new monarch: perhaps herself, perhaps its wife or daughter, or granddaughter (I remember Elayne mentioning possibility of Pelivar having ambitions in name of his granddaughters). Also Rand could provide traveling to his candidate allowing for gathering support and presenting itself to nation as Elayne did in COT. In that scenario Andorans would not be nearly as provoked as in upper case. And Rand could have defeated anything Andor cold throw against him period. What he had in Caemlyn when we first see him in LOC: Aiels under Bael and Saldeans under Basher together with his channeling was enough to hold city against anything that high seats could realistically brought in field at a time. Full strength of Goshien, one more clan and Taim added and he would wipe the floor with anything Andorans had. On a mater of military might of Andor I would like to say that, personally I think that any Borderland nation have stronger army. Elayne claims that united Andor could nearly match number of Borderlanders in south, but that there would be lot of untrained, too old or to young soldiers. On the other hand all four monarch brought with them approximately 50 000 soldiers and still left enough to take care of usual level of Troloc incursion. In case of emergency and large scale mobilization they could probably raise more quality soldiers than Andor. Narishma, I think, says something in line of every Borderlander being as good soldier as actual soldiers in south of pure necessity in tGS. Concerning problems and conflict that such policy of Rand would caused I’d remind you that at the end there was civil war anyway, and that there were nobles ready to start it even if he left immediately after killing Rahvin, even if Elayne came shortly after as Master Ablar have mentioned.
  16. Ah come on mate, we are having a nice little conversation, no need to get peevish now. Again just spend some time searching the topic, it should be an enlightening experience. Was trying to help you out in telling you to spend some time looking around and mentioning what has been the general consensus over the years. You will find somehow that the vast majority according to you are "throwing semantics". "Semantics" that just happen to have very real ramifications in world. Not sure why you continue to ignore what is actually written. Lastly it would be nice if your "well reasoned arguement" had any basis in the text. I have provided quotes supporting my opinon. If you can do the same please go ahead. We have established that Rand liberated Andor from Rahvin and policed it for some time. Not sure how my point of view can be semantics when the high seats make it clear they won't allow him to give the throne to anyone and state what they will do if he overstays his welcome(does that sound like ownership?). Or how about when he tells the High Seats... or In addition the general populace were speaking up to drive him out of Andor and thought he had no place there. Dyelin then acts as Steward once he leaves keeping the peace and putting down rebellions. Next we have Elayne's actions in stating her claim, winning the civil war and securing the votes on her own with no help from Rand's forces. What part of that is me saying he didn't give it to her because Elayne says so? Funny thing is that is a hell of a lot of work for somoene who according to you was handed the throne months before from the person who had "ownership". You know that same person who disavows that he does in the quotes above. Now to the contrary what would have happened had Elayne said she was excepting the throne from Rand? Dyelin would not have supported her and the claim would have been dead before it even started. Further along it is why she couldn't use Rand's troops to help secure the throne. These distinctions are huge in Andoran culture and I hope it makes things a bit more clear. Honestly mate, I wasn't insinuating your opinion is any less valid because you just joined. I really do think you will enjoy searching around through old threads, it's a good read and can show you the different avenues people have already gone down. Not sure what your point about the Kin is above? All it does however is further illustrate how difficult it would have been to find the bowl had Elayne not been there. Why were they going to meet Mat at the Inn? Because Elayne dragged her to go apologize. She was in on the need search, was right about the building when Nynaeve had it wrong and was best with weather. That is why she had to go, the fact that it played out in a manner they didn't forsee has no bearing on what they knew when they made their initial decision. For the last time you can't just take someone out of the equation and expect the exact same result. I hate repeating myself but once again, alternate futures based on characters decision are a pretty significant item in the story. No, especially considering the high seats thought this... LoC Ch. 16 Suttree, as much as I remember from last year that issue was discussed at length, but there was hardly consensus about it afterwards. Some people held one view, others other. Beside, discussions between fans are hardly enough for something to be canon rightJ? There is one issue that I feel was glossed over in those discussions and that is Rands’ own opinion of it and how it affected his approach to maters of andoran politics. Rand was hell-bent on giving Elayne Andor unaffected by all what was happening i.e. undivided, with authority of crown unaffected (not lowered) by his presence and actions. In that he acted as would a boy in love in Two Rivers act towards girlfriend rather than aspiring political leader and it caused him problems. He put less effort in protecting his own authority than hers, so it was only natural that it increased resistance against him. If he had established himself as overlord, taking (and demanding) oaths of fealty as he did in Cairhien, well, andorans might have started war against him, but not necessarily. In other words, he put himself in position of placeholder for Elayne. That either gave impression, which he consistently confirmed, that his presence and authority will be only temporary and therefore that standing against him is less likely to produce negative consequences (at least in long run) or that he is simply lying. If he was less concerned with keeping his sort-of-girlfriend (as he wasn’t sure where they stood) authority among her countrymen untouched he might have had less problems with them. You quoted his conversation with Dyelin, Abelle, Elorien and Luan from LoC Ch. 16, but that is stand of four Houses, and as you may recall from Ch. 1 - 6 great Houses were with him and vying for his favor. Of that four only Dyelin was for Elayne, the rest were for her to put forward claim for throne. I would also liked to remind you that during Succession Elayne had 12 Houses set against her and 4 headed by minors or near enough behind her. If Rand had wanted to install other queen he could find amenable candidate - one ready to swear fealty to Dragon - amongst them. Elenia and Naean for sure, possibly Elorien (when faced with choice accept Morgase’ daughter for queen or Dragon for liege lord) and possibly some of others who could gather adequate support in realm. Such move would have prevented forming of unified front against him for sure, even if such possibility was realistically on the table from beginning. As for popular revolt against him – yes, that might have been option, but all we saw was talk Elayne heard on way to Caemlyn. Weeks after he was last seen in city and weeks after Dyelin took regency. Seeing her do that surely put more courage in common folk. Besides, those were people in Caemlyn region, where influence of throne is greatest as well as its popularity. Their opinion is not necessarily shared by peasants on estates of provincial nobility. Also I would liked to remind you of one somewhat similar situation. Do you remember Mats’ conversation with Beslan in WH Ch. 28 News in a Cloth Sack? Beslan is certain that Ebou Dari are ready for uprising while Mat is skeptical. It is worth nothing that Elayne in her last chapter of TPOD finds Aiel, Saldeans and Legion of Dragon in Caemlyn and royal palace. Despite all Dyelins’ expressed standings for independence of Andor, she was not wiling to start confrontation with them. Oh, and another thing: when Bael sees all might of 6 houses gathered around Arimyl he doesn’t have doubt that he can defeat them. In fact he is angry that Rands’ orders and Elaynes’ request forbids it. At the end, I would sum my stand in this mater as this: Rand was limited not by what could Andorans do, but by how far was he willing to go.
  17. Actually Elan here you touched upon one of my pet peeves in WoT: RJ was unable to move Egwene’s storyline to desired outcome without forcing the plot to promote her, while simultaneously having to force plot to contain number of other characters storylines. And neither was good. So, it ended in Aes Sedai and those two guys you mentioned (as well as number of other characters) being, shall we say, rather less than shiny examples of intelligence. To illustrate it with few examples: the way she is treated in KOD together with whole capture at the end of COT, siege itself in same book, war vote in TPOD were at least Romanda and Lelaine should know the law in question and have motivation to see motion not passed, oaths to Ewene in ACOS, hell whole shenanigan with electing an Accepted for Amyrlin Seat in LOC. And what was going on in TGS, it is better left uncommented. As well as mater of Halima. On other hand we have, well pretty much everyone else. I think that you are a bit to harsh on Perrin. At a beginning of the story he had what amounts to good job/career and was pleased with his life. He was satisfied. All that came afterwards (well, almost – he likes being in marriage with Faile, but we can’t really hold that against him, heart wants what heart wants) being ta’veren, wolfbrother, lord, was something that he didn’t want. Image of “mentally incapacitated wolf doofus who has an iq below 10” comes from partly, his own passive personality, partly from having job and responsibilities he never wanted dumped on him and partly from being married with foreigner from widely different cultural background and expectations in life and marriage. However, I’d say that none of that excuses the fact that RJ didn’t have anything important (or anything at all) for him to do between Dumai’s Wells and Merrilor Field so he burdened him, his wife and us readers with yawning monstrosity that is Plot of Doom. Here I will note that, usually I don’t as much dislike character (well, with exception of Egwene) as I dislike their story arcs but I came damn close to that with Lan from KOD onwards. (Funnily enough when you mentioned “the blademaster who has obsessive compulsive order in regards to death and avenging” I thought that you meant Gawyn) I know that RJ had that big theme of miscommunication, notcomunication, and that his general idea of character growth was in lines of “get him far away from rest of main cast and let them not talk if possibly at all, double for asking help, triple for cooperating” but what he did with Lan was just plain ridicules. Here we have a grown man in forties, an experienced soldier and if not king, than noble of high rank with experience in court life and involved in biggest political-military endeavor not only of his time, but possibly preceding millennium (here I speak of Great Alliance). He has access to top political figure and what does he do when he is unsatisfied with politics of said politician concerning defense of his adopted homeland? Does he confronts him on those maters? Does he suggest different course of action? Does he offer to be liaison between that politician and countries in question authorities (which at least know and respect him unlike said person who is almost completely an unknown to them)? Does he offer help at all? Does he even talk about it? Hell does he as much as comes and say “Listen kid, you really ought to do something about Borderlands and if won’t than I’m going to”. No he haven’t done any of that. He practically sneaked away on suggestion of his young and politically inexperienced wife (I must say that I don’t hold this against Nynaeve, well not that much, she is after all provincial and ignorant about things outside her home and limited area in OP usage and is were emotional and prone to be influenced by that when making decisions. Still she should have shown at least some common sense. But it was something that Lan wished for and she simple indulged him) not informing anyone, with presumed intention to personally (and single handedly) combat creatures of Shadow. I’m going to repeat this one more time: a man in forties with decades of experience of fighting in Blight and elsewhere both as common fighter, officer and warder with connections in courts and direct access to prophesied savior of world and when that savior isn’t doing exactly what he think he should be doing his thought process goes like this: “Hm, Dragon Reborn doesn’t pay enough attention to Borderlands. Oh well, I might as well return to what I was doing before I’ve heard that he is reborn and that Armageddon is coming in my lifetime. Which is to fight (preferably solo) Trolocs and other creatures of Blight while he’s doing whatever he is doing”. Reading WoT I have, few times and usually with Rand, had desire to get into book, slap character and ask him/her “WHAT ARE YOU DOING JACKASS!!!!!!!!” But never so strongly as concerning this. I thought of posting topic “No, it isn’t cool, it’s really, really stupid”. This goes way beyond anything any other character has done including all 3 Trakands. Taken together.
  18. I recently read Leigh Butlers’ The Wheel of Time Reread - COT and it hit me: what the hell is point of Halima/Aran’gar in story? S/he doesn’t actually do anything of consequence. Giving Egwene headaches and interfering with her dreams, bossing Delana, and occasionally beating Sheriam is all well and fine but it’s importance to plot is minimal. Might as well not being there at all. Osan’gar purpose was to teach Flinn advanced Healing, he did it, and in next book we see him expose himself and book after - his sole (pardon second) appearance ends with him burned along with hilltop he was on. Ok,I get that. What I don’t understand is, and I will repeat myself: what the hell is point of Halima/Aran’gar in story? In fact, story would be (at list for me) better if there was no one to control and direct Black Ajah amongst Rebels. That could actually explain away all their cross-purpose working among SAS and their poorer performance. Not to mention that Balthamel was one of Shadows’ top two spymasters, so he should have as much or nearly as much political acumen as his Third Age counterparts and actually accomplish something. Instead of doing, you know, pretty much nothing. So, can somebody tell me what was the point of that?
  19. No,it's actualy before she talked with Siuan - during her conversation with Nynaeve and Elayne in LOC ch. 36 - Amirlyn is raised if i'm not mistaken. That's the very morning after she's been raised, more precisly after her first public speach. At that time she didn't really knew anything about situation in Salidar or any of the Sitters.
  20. This is the thing that had me baffled quite a bit while I was reading mid-to-late books. In LOC when Sheriam & co tells her that she is to be Amirlyn Seat she objects it for … sentence or two (or three) and next day when talking to Nynaeve and Elayne it’s: I intend to be Amirlyn, not puppet. So, what I want to ask you is where does all that confidence comes from? What makes her think that she’s qualified for the job at all, let alone why does she think she could run Tower better than Sheriam’s group, or Romanda’s or Lelaina’s or in fact any of the Sitters? After all she is accepted promoted to AS on technicality, 18-years old with few months spend in Tower seriously lacking education (in Tower standards) surrounded with, in some cases, women 10 times older than her. Why is she so sure? As far as I can remember she didn’t really questioned her right and qualification for position. When I thought about it, only thing that I come up was two possibilities: it’s demand of the plot pure and simple, nothing to think about, just go along with ‘Egwene is determined to be real Amirlyn”. Other possibility is that she saw Rand coming to position of leader and thought: well, if Rand can be leader than certainly I can to. So, what do you think about it?
  21. XXX47 had posted, some time ago very interesting topic Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?. To answer to it here, no I don’t think they are. First is political office, a head of organization of magic users and a state that they had established, a head of a superpower that dominated its (very isolated) part of world for millennia. Second is a messiah, a prophesied savior of the world, an occurrence unprecedented in Age, who on top of his metaphysical clout have acquired control of significant part (perhaps greater part) of first’s territory (sphere of influence) and have much greater resources at his disposal. Reading 20+ pages of discussion I started to wonder: perhaps it would more appropriate to compare position of Amirlyn to some other political position? Well, it would certainly be interesting. So there it is: are Amirlyn and Empress equal? If yes, why? If no, then which is more important and again why? And if you want to ad what makes institution, group, or character important in series – even better.
  22. Dude, how many Forsaken have the Ashaman and Damane taken out? Taking casualties while fighting the most powerful baddies in the world isn't a mark of shame. Quite the contrary! The only reason there weren't MORE casualties, was the fact that the Forsaken were disorganized and fighting on their own instead of in coordination. And why *wouldn't* the Forsaken want to destroy the White Tower? For all your claims that the AS are weak, who do you think is going to be the most important channeler faction in the Last Battle? It's not going to the the Damane, that's for sure! Do you think Merana would rather be hiding than rule the White Tower with the Black Ajah, if she could do so? You seem to ignore the fact that the White Tower had been HELPING Rand become the Dragon Reborn until Siuan was deposed: an act that was clearly instigated by the Black Ajah. If the Shadow is focusing so much attention on infiltrating, corrupting, and splitting the White Tower, why do you think they are not interested in destroying or capturing the White Tower for themselves, if they could do so? Look at what happened to other factions when the Shadow turned its attention on them: Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman, all controlled by Forsaken. The Seanchan homeland, destroyed and thrown into anarchy. The Black Tower, corrupted from within, and turning into a tool of the Shadow. Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman were liberated by the Dragon Reborn. The White Tower, also suffering huge devastation at the hands of the Shadow, managed to pull itself together *by themselves*! Finally, while the White Tower did not create the sa'angreal and angreal, they *are* the only people, aside from Rand and the Shadow, who even know these things exist, nevermind use them! The White Tower's accumulated lore and their search for objects of power over 3000 years is what gave them that store. That is part and parcel with their power base! No, the White Tower is not the strongest channeler group. The strongest channeler group is the Seanchan, simply because they are the biggest channeler group, with the might of an entire empire behind them, and the fact that they have a ter'angreal that allows them to enslave other channelers! Had the White Tower been as powerful as the Seanchan, they would have no need of the Three Oaths and would have ruled all of Randland already. However, the fact that they're not as powerful as the Seanchan does not make them weak by any stretch of the imagination. That would be like saying the British are weak and useless because the Americans are more powerful! To answer your first question none of asha’man is major character. As for why Forsaken wouldn’t want to destroy White Tower, well they never read Evil Overlord to do list, so they are helplessly genre blind. :) On (a bit) more serious note, I’d say it is mater of plot convenience. If Shadow had destroyed Tower in TSR instead of just dividing it where would story go from there on? Certainly nowhere in direction of FoM or Egwene being Amirlin or Seanchan getting Traveling or other stuff from Elaida, or to return several books back, Rand’s kidnapping and all that came through that. If that happened, there would be only WT controlled by Black Ajah (here I assume that Shadow would just kill lightsided AS without actually going public with their real loyalties) and various groups of AS composed of those outside of Tower in the time of coup. Even if those groups could avoid being caught by BA or other DF (that in self being made even harder by there likely ignorance of what actually happened ) they would still be pretty much helpless and utterly dependant on Rand’s and Aiel’s protection. And that would really go against themes of gender equality that RJ put through whole series. What’s even worst it would mean that villains that our heroes ought to face and defeat have sound strategies (and brains) which would put said heroes in quite a predicament.:) To give more in-universe comment of your post I’d say that Ishamael planed to use Tower rather than destroy it, while other Forsaken simple weren’t out of Bore long enough for there planes to progress that far. And they carried villain ball. One question for the end: if you would have to give a number for chanellars in Shara what would it be – at least in order of magnitude?
  23. Well, there’s several reasons for Green ajah poor performance during Seanchan assault on Tower. General mentality of individual sisters and Tower as a whole, which favors manipulation and intimidation rather than direct confrontation as well as limitations of Three Oaths, their history that left them inexperienced in larger-scale channelers to channelers combat. One can also try to make case for simple poor leadership: raw straight in power as a central factor in determining precedence doesn’t seem to make wonders for bringing most capable/competent persons on top. Than there’s simple mater of surprise to factor in. just think about it: rank-and-file sisters probably only heard rumors of Seanchan and even better informed ones (ajah heads, sitters, handlers of eyes-and-ears networks) knew that they are hundreds of miles and several countries away. And now all of a sudden in the middle of the night here they are, attacking place every Aes Sedai knew to be safe. I’ve never been yanked out of sleep by explosions and military attack on my house but I assume that it’s incredibly disorientating. However, if I’d have to put my money on it, I’d say that it’s to make Egwene look better in comparison. Salidar embassy didn’t look that incompetent on Dumai Wells and neither did Cadsuane’s posse. Also, there’s question of Salidar AS reacting to that bubble of evil in LoC. Although the event was unexpected and in the middle of night they managed to organize themselves and put much better performance than their sisters in Tower. So I’d put green ajah performance along all other things that brought Egwene to Amirlin Seat. One more thing: Adelorna’s comment’s on weaves used by damane is strange, since she should know alike weaves if not actually same ones.
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