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Egwene, Lying to World Leaders


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In the very scene where she writes the letter she thinks that "Chances were good that the Seanchan had traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be". So she's perfectly aware that it's quite likely that the Seanchan have traveling. She wants him to take his entire army to the FoM, and says that she can offer gateways back should Tear come under attack. Doesn't change the fact that she's putting Darlin's nation at risk, and decieving him into thinking that there is no risk.

 

A 60% chance is pretty good, but it’s not 100%. And it still no chance at all that they would attack Tear. Who would invade a country where if you win you probably get killed by the 4 countries surrounding you. In fact the only place the Seanchan are likely to use traveling to attack is … the White Tower. She putting herself at risk not Darlin.

It's what he's saying that she finds insane, he on the other hand sounds perfectly sane as he says them. And her talk with Nyneave and with the Wise Ones, should have made it clear that he's not insane. Whether Rand wants her to be doing this or not, doesn't make it the right thing to do. It just means Egwene is predictable, and that Rand knew how she would react.

 

I fail to see the difference between sounding insane, and saying something insane, but sounding sane. He Just committed mass murder a week before they met. And when the best proof anyone can offer is Nyneave can’t remove the taint from him it’s not a good sign. Plus Nyneave and with the Wise Ones agree with her.

 

If my friend told me the only way to stop terrorism was to set off a nuclear warhead in the middle of New York City are you saying it’s not right to check him into a Asylum?

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A 60% chance is pretty good, but it’s not 100%. And it still no chance at all that they would attack Tear. Who would invade a country where if you win you probably get killed by the 4 countries surrounding you. In fact the only place the Seanchan are likely to use traveling to attack is … the White Tower. She putting herself at risk not Darlin.

 

She's got all the right in the world to put herself at risk. Decieving others into putting themselves at risk however is far less justifiable.

 

Invading Tear could be a good idea, not only because it controls a huge river and is also the center of Rand's power, but also because no one would expect it, and it would allow the Seanchan to surround Illian. Ituralde himself said that if you're enemy is expecting you to do something, then do something else.

 

The point is she clearly told him that he's safe from the Seanchan for the time being, that Illian stands between them for now, and that he needn't worry about them. She of course failed to mention that the Seanchan probably have traveling and could attack Tear at any time if they wished to.

 

I fail to see the difference between sounding insane, and saying something insane, but sounding sane. He Just committed mass murder a week before they met. And when the best proof anyone can offer is Nyneave can’t remove the taint from him it’s not a good sign. Plus Nyneave and with the Wise Ones agree with her.

 

If my friend told me the only way to stop terrorism was to set off a nuclear warhead in the middle of New York City are you saying it’s not right to check him into a Asylum?

 

If he sounds perfectly sane while saying then you might want to at least consider that he knows what he's talking about. Egwene only learns about the balefiring of Natrim's Burrow later, and she probably doesn't even know about his protection from the taint. It's not at all clear that the Wise One's agree with her, they said they would talk to Rand about it. As for Nyneave I fail to see when she ever agreed with Egwene. When Egwene mentioned it to Nyneave, all Nyneave said was that it wasn't really a big deal considering they were breaking anyway.

 

Maybe Rand is mad and maybe he isn't. If he isn't, then maybe he's wrong about the necessity of breaking the seals, but then again maybe he's right about that. Egwene knows nothing about why Rand want's to do this because she hasn't heard his explanation for it yet. What she does know is that he sounded perfectly sane while he said it, and that Nyneave and the Wise One's don't seem worried about his sanity at all. And considering he also told her he could remember LTT's life, it should at least give her a reason to be uncertain, to make her think that maybe Rand hasn't told her everything. Egwene has essentially made her decision off the gut instinct that breaking the seals is a bad idea, except the problem is that, while I don't blame her for opposing him at first, not looking back on her decision, despite of the fact that she's in the dark about why Rand wants to break them in the first place, is not thinking things through properly. She's being rash in deciding to oppose him, when really she could just wait until the FoM to decide whether he needs to be opposed or not.

Edited by Master Ablar
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This thread is such a deja vu :P I remember a very similiar discussion few months ago!

 

Anyhow, I'm totally with Master Ablar on this one, Egwenes inability to examing her own actions are one of her huge flaws(And annoyances), and even though what she is doing is playing right into what Rand wants, she's still a fool for doing it.

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She is a full fledged Aes Sedai, in ways of thinking, acting and manupulating people to do what she thinks is best. Nothing new here.

 

Yep. Just like she spent 5 minutes with the Aiel and was, like, super uber Aiel-like, now shes spent 5 minutes being Aes Sedai and is more Aes Sedai than any of them.

 

Maybe if she spent 5 minutes with Rand she could teach him a few things about the Age of Legends.

 

Hehe, well said :biggrin:

 

:biggrin:

 

You know the bit that hurts the most? I think the 100 weaves are going to come in handy in Sealing the Bore. If Egwene shows Rand how to do it... ugh, let us pray it doesnt happen.

 

Interesting idea... Probably Egwene would not be able to show it to Rand, luckily.

 

Uh? No, nice idea, but those weaves are just to pass the test, otherwise the weaves are uselessly overly complex, but only make sound or light etc.

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She's got all the right in the world to put herself at risk. Decieving others into putting themselves at risk however is far less justifiable.

 

Invading Tear could be a good idea, not only because it controls a huge river and is also the center of Rand's power, but also because no one would expect it, and it would allow the Seanchan to surround Illian. Ituralde himself said that if you're enemy is expecting you to do something, then do something else.

 

The point is she clearly told him that he's safe from the Seanchan for the time being, that Illian stands between them for now, and that he needn't worry about them. She of course failed to mention that the Seanchan probably have traveling and could attack Tear at any time if they wished to.

 

Doing the unexpected is good, but not when it's stupid. There a reason Rand didn't use a gateway to send his army into the middle of illidan or seanchan territory.

 

a 5% chance of the seanchan deciding to invade vs a 100% chance of the dark one taking over.

 

If he sounds perfectly sane while saying then you might want to at least consider that he knows what he's talking about. Egwene only learns about the balefiring of Natrim's Burrow later, and she probably doesn't even know about his protection from the taint. It's not at all clear that the Wise One's agree with her, they said they would talk to Rand about it. As for Nyneave I fail to see when she ever agreed with Egwene. When Egwene mentioned it to Nyneave, all Nyneave said was that it wasn't really a big deal considering they were breaking anyway.

 

Maybe Rand is mad and maybe he isn't. If he isn't, then maybe he's wrong about the necessity of breaking the seals, but then again maybe he's right about that. Egwene knows nothing about why Rand want's to do this because she hasn't heard his explanation for it yet. What she does know is that he sounded perfectly sane while he said it, and that Nyneave and the Wise One's don't seem worried about his sanity at all. And considering he also told her he could remember LTT's life, it should at least give her a reason to be uncertain, to make her think that maybe Rand hasn't told her everything. Egwene has essentially made her decision off the gut instinct that breaking the seals is a bad idea, except the problem is that, while I don't blame her for opposing him at first, not looking back on her decision, despite of the fact that she's in the dark about why Rand wants to break them in the first place, is not thinking things through properly. She's being rash in deciding to oppose him, when really she could just wait until the FoM to decide whether he needs to be opposed or not.

 

Rand has been channeling for over 2 years, Men have gone insane in months, even weeks. She has to assume he's half mad at this point. And frankly telling people he has a dead man memories is not what I would go a vote for sane department.

 

Gut instinct? We been told that breaking the seals is game over since the eye of the world. Your expecting her to believe Rand's gut instinct because he says he can remember a dead man's life. And as I said in other threads protecting the seals in not only in her job description, it's job title. You know, Keeper of the flame, Watcher of the Seals.

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As far as she knows he's going INSANE! She believes in him enough that she feels he was asking for help. And once again RAND WANTS HER TO DO THIS! She's making her job easier.

 

It's what he's saying that she finds insane, he on the other hand sounds perfectly sane as he says them. And her talk with Nyneave and with the Wise Ones, should have made it clear that he's not insane. Whether Rand wants her to be doing this or not, doesn't make it the right thing to do. It just means Egwene is predictable, and that Rand knew how she would react.

You mean the wise one's who got worried when she told them he said he would break the seals and said they'd talk to him about and it, completely justifying her worries? Those wise ones? Or the other ones who don't exist?

 

She even thinks that she found it odd that it was Nynaeve who was more defensive of Rand and the Wise Ones who agreed with her, she thought it would be the other way around. So she clearly believes the Wise Ones are with her.

 

To all those people who find this appropriate behaviour as Egwene is a "politician." You're okay with politicians misleading and lying to you?

 

Fairly certain that Elayne is the only nation leader who is also an Aes Sedai, so this is ridiculous. You don't think other leaders would ever try to play fast and loose with the white tower? Give me a break. Interaction between independent leaders is not the same as screwing with the people you're responsible for, and have authority over.

 

I love how you guys love Egwene SOOO much that it upsets you when she doesn't adhere to the paragon persona you have bestowed her. But lets try to bring it back to earth.

 

If the other leaders put the WT at risk and lied to it about the risk, then their actions are just as bad. They're independent leaders, but she decieving Darlin and putting his nation at risk. And she's lying to him because he is essential to her plans.

 

Oh come on. Egwene is not Ta'veren that she can just change every law overnight and change the whole culture of international politics without repercussions, or handicapping herself right into uselessness. It's unrealistic how quickly she learns, but why doesn't she act as some selfless, scrupled, hyper empathetic, transparent, candid, completely honest leader. Yeah that'd be totally realistic. No one in the book is like that. So stop demanding it of Egwene. I don't know where you got it in your heads that Egwene was written to be a fairy tale princess.

 

And I guess Rand "lied" to Egwene then? (Given this lose definition of "lie" we're using). And of course Rand's lie could be endangering the whole world, so I guess that's worse?

 

She's being rash in deciding to oppose him, when really she could just wait until the FoM to decide whether he needs to be opposed or not.

 

Really, and if he shows up with the seals in a bag and a hammer in hand, it would be a little late at that point.

 

And I've said this a bunch of times, and I don't think you meant it the way you said it, but she does not oppose Rand, she opposes his plan to break the seals. There's a big difference. If Rand just broke them, Egwene wouldn't ally the tower to the DO all of a sudden.

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Doing the unexpected is good, but not when it's stupid. There a reason Rand didn't use a gateway to send his army into the middle of illidan or seanchan territory.

 

The reason being that Rand never tried to invade the Seanchan. All the battles in Illian and Altara were simply to defend his territory from the Seanchan. He actually did gateway right into Illian when Sammael held it.

 

a 5% chance of the seanchan deciding to invade vs a 100% chance of the dark one taking over.

 

Yeah, the DO is the greater threat, now what would have been right would have been for Egwene to let Darlin decide that for himself, instead of decieving him into thinking that the Seanchan are no threat to Tear. She obviously didn't want to take that risk.

 

Rand has been channeling for over 2 years, Men have gone insane in months, even weeks. She has to assume he's half mad at this point. And frankly telling people he has a dead man memories is not what I would go a vote for sane department.

 

Except that Nyneave should have made it clear to her that Rand is not insane. And if Rand was insane you'd think the Wise One's would be more worried about him instead of praising him. Assuming is exactly what she shouldn't be doing. Not when the fate of the world is hanging on it, and the one who's supposed to save the world is telling he's going to do something that goes against your instincts.

 

Once she knows that Rand is not insane, or at least that there is a posibility that he is not insane, that's when his claim, that he can remember LTT's life should become much more interesting. What does Egwene lose by waiting until the FoM to decided whether or not she needs to oppose him on this subject?

 

Gut instinct? We been told that breaking the seals is game over since the eye of the world. Your expecting her to believe Rand's gut instinct because he says he can remember a dead man's life.

 

Not believe him, necessarily, just keep her mind open, when the idea is coming from the guy who is supposed to save the world, and you're told that man is perfectly sane, and that there is no need to chose whether he needs to be stopped until he explains exactly why he wants to do this. And he said he would explain everything at the FoM.

 

And as I said in other threads protecting the seals in not only in her job description, it's job title. You know, Keeper of the flame, Watcher of the Seals.

 

Yeah, right, that's why she's opposed to him breaking the seals. Because it's in her job description.

 

You mean the wise one's who got worried when she told them he said he would break the seals and said they'd talk to him about and it, completely justifying her worries? Those wise ones? Or the other ones who don't exist?

 

She even thinks that she found it odd that it was Nynaeve who was more defensive of Rand and the Wise Ones who agreed with her, she thought it would be the other way around. So she clearly believes the Wise Ones are with her.

 

Yes those Wise One's. Notice that before she tells them that he plans to break the seals, there is no worry for him from them. In fact they praise him saying that "he becomes the car'a'carn truly". So they don't appear to be of the opinion that he is insane. The revelation that he wishes to break the seals alarms them of course, there's nothing surprising about that, but at no point do they think he is insane.

 

Oh come on. Egwene is not Ta'veren that she can just change every law overnight and change the whole culture of international politics without repercussions, or handicapping herself right into uselessness. It's unrealistic how quickly she learns, but why doesn't she act as some selfless, scrupled, hyper empathetic, transparent, candid, completely honest leader. Yeah that'd be totally realistic. No one in the book is like that. So stop demanding it of Egwene. I don't know where you got it in your heads that Egwene was written to be a fairy tale princess.

 

I didn't say it was unrealistic of Egwene to act as she did, I said it was wrong. I'm just calling her out on it.

 

And I guess Rand "lied" to Egwene then? (Given this lose definition of "lie" we're using). And of course Rand's lie could be endangering the whole world, so I guess that's worse?

 

Could be. The problem with Rand is that we haven't been inside his head, which makes it really difficult to judge him or his actions. We don't know what his intentions are or his reasons for acting as he did. I'm certainly hoping that he has a reason for provoking Egwene as he did.

 

Really, and if he shows up with the seals in a bag and a hammer in hand, it would be a little late at that point.

 

Well, she's kind of depending on Rand not breaking the seals before meeting with her anyway. Rand can, afterall break them whenever he wants. If he shows up at the meeting with them still whole, then she should be able to assume that he's going to talk to her first before breaking them. What would you want her to do anyway? Shield him as soon as he shows up and seize the seals immediately? She's depending on Rand holding his word.

 

And I've said this a bunch of times, and I don't think you meant it the way you said it, but she does not oppose Rand, she opposes his plan to break the seals. There's a big difference. If Rand just broke them, Egwene wouldn't ally the tower to the DO all of a sudden.

 

Well, obviously when I say she opposes him, it's in the context of the breaking of the seals. I don't expect her to oppose him if he feels like eating an apple instead of an orange.

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Doing the unexpected is good, but not when it's stupid. There a reason Rand didn't use a gateway to send his army into the middle of illidan or seanchan territory.

 

a 5% chance of the seanchan deciding to invade vs a 100% chance of the dark one taking over.

 

Actually he did, Rand, Dashiva and 3-4 other Asha'men created gateways for the Saldean horse and the Legion of the Dragon to invade Illian. The city was captured within minutes. Now if 5-6 males channelers, can do this. The Seanchan with 200+ damane could do it as well. The threat is very real.

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I think we're forgetting time lines here... I think Elaida held out more than a couple of days before revealing Travelling to her new masters. It takes time to plan an invasion, let alone one with a new tactic.

 

Rand did not decide overnight to capture Illian this way. There was a conventional army marching from Tear 10 days before he struck, diverting Sammael's attention to the border forts and emptying the city of its soldiers.

 

It's also pretty clear Egwene has support for her opposition, and that the opposition to Rand (objectively justifiable or not) is perceived to be by far the most important international issue to date. For me, actually having so many troops in one place makes more sense than leaving defensive forces behind. With minimal gateway enabled messengers you could mobilise a counter-attack force more effectively at the first sign of trouble (this hasn't occurred to anyone in-text though). Tairen Asha'man and Aes Sedai would even have the advantage, since damane and Sul'dam aren't aware of the knowledge limitations of travel.

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Actually he did, Rand, Dashiva and 3-4 other Asha'men created gateways for the Saldean horse and the Legion of the Dragon to invade Illian. The city was captured within minutes. Now if 5-6 males channelers, can do this. The Seanchan with 200+ damane could do it as well. The threat is very real.

 

 

The reason being that Rand never tried to invade the Seanchan. All the battles in Illian and Altara were simply to defend his territory from the Seanchan. He actually did gateway right into Illian when Sammael held it.

 

After he already had an army at the gates to deal with the illian forces. Rand and the Asha'men were basically at assassination squad. Your talking Sending an army into the city. If they did send 200 damane in then what could the army do, but incease the casulaty list.

 

Yeah, the DO is the greater threat, now what would have been right would have been for Egwene to let Darlin decide that for himself, instead of decieving him into thinking that the Seanchan are no threat to Tear. She obviously didn't want to take that risk.

 

Should she convince every world leader that a seanchan army will run out of their closet in the middle of the night? She has no proof they have channelling, no reason to think they will open another battlefront, and a much bigger problem to deal with. Why bring it up?

 

Except that Nyneave should have made it clear to her that Rand is not insane. And if Rand was insane you'd think the Wise One's would be more worried about him instead of praising him. Assuming is exactly what she shouldn't be doing. Not when the fate of the world is hanging on it, and the one who's supposed to save the world is telling he's going to do something that goes against your instincts.

 

Once she knows that Rand is not insane, or at least that there is a posibility that he is not insane, that's when his claim, that he can remember LTT's life should become much more interesting. What does Egwene lose by waiting until the FoM to decided whether or not she needs to oppose him on this subject?

 

Expect Nyneave doesn't know Rand is sane. Yes he acting more like himself, but after gathering storm that's not saying much he could have a bad swing any moment and blow up his own throne room. All she knows is she can't remove the Taint.

 

Not believe him, necessarily, just keep her mind open, when the idea is coming from the guy who is supposed to save the world, and you're told that man is perfectly sane, and that there is no need to chose whether he needs to be stopped until he explains exactly why he wants to do this. And he said he would explain everything at the FoM.

 

She is keeping her mind open. She giving him the benfit of the doubt, that he asking for her to stop her. That's more then anyone else in the Tower willing to give him. More then anyone can be expected to give her.

 

Yeah, right, that's why she's opposed to him breaking the seals. Because it's in her job description.

 

No she's opposed because she doesn't want the world to end.

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After he already had an army at the gates to deal with the illian forces. Rand and the Asha'men were basically at assassination squad. Your talking Sending an army into the city. If they did send 200 damane in then what could the army do, but incease the casulaty list.

 

Most of the forces of Illian were away from the city defending against Rand's army attacking from Tear. Just as Darlin's army would be at the FoM. The Seanchan have actually already done this once. In Amadicia they (presumably, or else just incredibly good fortune) waited until the Children of the Light and the Amadician army had left Amador, and then swooped in with Toraken and conquered the city. And they did it without gateways.

 

Should she convince every world leader that a seanchan army will run out of their closet in the middle of the night? She has no proof they have channelling, no reason to think they will open another battlefront, and a much bigger problem to deal with. Why bring it up?

 

She says there's a good chance the Seanchan have travelling by now, so it's not like she just thought it wasn't worth bringing it up. She didn't tell them the Seanchan had travelling because it would contradict her statement that they were safe from the Seanchan, simple as that. She didn't want to risk them not bringing their whole army.

 

Say the Seanchan do attack Tear while the army is away. What does Egwene tell Darlin, when he confronts her with the fact that she told him that Tear was safe from them, and the fact that she failed to tell him the Seanchan probably had travelling?

 

Expect Nyneave doesn't know Rand is sane. Yes he acting more like himself, but after gathering storm that's not saying much he could have a bad swing any moment and blow up his own throne room. All she knows is she can't remove the Taint.

 

But he definitely does seem to have gotten better, to possibly be sane. Everyone has noticed it, even Egwene. So yes maybe he is insane, but there's the posibility that he isn't. It's just one more thing Egwene can't be sure of, just like the fact that she can't be 100% that Rand's plan to break the seals is wrong, and just like the fact that Nyneave may be taking Rand's side completely of her own accord, instead of by being taverened into it. Egwene has no certainties on any of those. She's in the dark about a lot of crucial elements. And yet despite that she's already made the decision to oppose him, and she's kept to it despite the fact that she's had time to decide that it may not be certain he needs to be opposed on this subject. She made a premature decision, and because of that she's turned the meeting with Rand into a confrontation (although Rand has his share of responsibility in that as well). And the one whose reputation it's going to hurt in the end is her's and the White Tower's.

 

She is keeping her mind open. She giving him the benfit of the doubt, that he asking for her to stop her. That's more then anyone else in the Tower willing to give him. More then anyone can be expected to give her.

 

That's not keeping her mind open, that's wishful thinking. How many nations or people are completely with her to oppose Rand? Only Elayne, and even she wasn't convinced of the need to oppose him at first (Egwene must have completely convinced her later on off-screen, as she seems convince in her meeting with Perrin that Rand must be opposed). All the rest are going there to hear why Rand wants to do this. Perrin and Nyneave are with Rand. Darlin says he's open to questioning Rand about why he wishes break the seals, which is perfectly legitimate thing to be worried about. The Wise One's said that the news that Rand want's to break the seals is disturbing (which it is), and that they would talk to him about it (which they should). Ghealdan, Mayene, and the Children follow Rand but they'll undoubtebly want to know why Rand wants to break the seals. And the borderlanders we don't know, though considering the presence of Rand in their camp in the epilogue, it unlikely they've decided to oppose him.

 

In the end, Egwene doesn't have all that much support, though she may believe differently. That alone should make her think that it may be worth it to at least consider Rand's plan. She should at least wait until she definitely knows whether or not he needs to be opposed. She is risking absolutely nothing by waiting to make her decision, whereas by deciding to oppose him, she turns it into a confrontation where ultimately, one will right and one will be wrong. And it's pretty unlikely that she's going to be right on this subject.

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Well Rand did say it would be 1 month before he goes to break the seals on the prison. What is the timeline between him going to the Tower and the scene at the Field? Is that 1 month? Don't think it is because Verin gave that letter to Matt about a month ago in the story and alot has occured since then.

 

But it did seem there was plenty of going back in time happening in GS though. Most of Perrin's battle with the wolf and the training with Hopper occured BEFORE the end of GS when Rand defeats his own darkness.

 

So what, there has been maybe a few weeks? I dunno. But I doubt he leaves the meeting and goes STRAIGHT to the last battle. Neither does anyone else. Rand still has to confron the Seachan. Seachan still have to fight the white tower again, alot still has to happen after the meeting ends.

 

Ewgene though I dunno. She AUTOMATICALLY assumes breaking the seals is something that MUST not be done. Does she know the prophecies? Does she know how the previous seals were created? Does she know anything AT ALL about how to fight the Dark One? Nope. She is going off pure gut reaction. Which is why she should have been forced to take the Aes Sedai tests. She is not only lying as the Amrylin, but also going off pure emotion. Possibly to the end of the world. What is she going to do? Fight half the armies of the world for her own opinion without anything to back it up? She going to kill the Dragon Reborn?

 

I think she knows she cannot stop him, and this is just some Aes Sedai ploy to get a few more nations to back her up. Who knows what Aes Sedai trully want.

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Who knows what Aes Sedai trully want.

 

She was quite clear in what she wants.

 

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.
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Who knows what Aes Sedai trully want.

 

She was quite clear in what she wants.

 

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

I think they were going to do that anyway though. All she is doing is gathering the nations together for the last time to oppose the Dragon Reborn when he is off to fight the Dark One. Not exactly the smartest thing to do right before a war. " Hey your general is being an idiot! Help me stop him! ". Then try and turn it into some sort of positive.

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I think they were going to do that anyway though. All she is doing is gathering the nations together for the last time to oppose the Dragon Reborn when he is off to fight the Dark One. Not exactly the smartest thing to do right before a war. " Hey your general is being an idiot! Help me stop him! ". Then try and turn it into some sort of positive.

 

But it is as many other have noted exactly what Rand wants her to do. He purposely refused to discuss the situation and antagonized her to get this reaction. Ta'veren influence was also likely at work. We just don't know why.

 

The point of my quote is it shows very clearly what Egwene's motivations are. Misguided are not AS believe their role is to shepherd humanity into the Last Battle. It is not as you imply in the above post some mysterious AS goal.

Edited by Suttree
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I think they were going to do that anyway though. All she is doing is gathering the nations together for the last time to oppose the Dragon Reborn when he is off to fight the Dark One. Not exactly the smartest thing to do right before a war. " Hey your general is being an idiot! Help me stop him! ". Then try and turn it into some sort of positive.

 

But it is as many other have noted exactly what Rand wants her to do. He purposely refused to discuss the situation and antagonized her to get this reaction. Ta'veren influence was also likely at work. We just don't know why.

 

The point of my quote is it shows very clearly what Egwene's motivations are. Misguided are not AS believe their role is to shepherd humanity into the Last Battle. It is not as you imply in the above post some mysterious AS goal.

 

I very much agree with this. Egwene was played by Rand. His telling her that he planned to break the seals was done in the Hall of the Towers, in front of the Sitters. Egwene had no choice but to act strongly to this.

Had Rand met her privately and discussed the matter with her, explaining his reasons behind it and given her the chance to assess whether he's mad or not, her actions might have been different. With the information Egwene has, Rand has become / is both mad and ruthless.

Rand wants the armies of the Wetlands at FoM, Egwene is a tool of getting them there.

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Had Rand met her privately and discussed the matter with her, explaining his reasons behind it and given her the chance to assess whether he's mad or not, her actions might have been different.

But Egwene didn't give him that opportunity. She wouldn't even allow the meeting be Sealed to the Hall because "they need to see me confront him" (and note that it was confront, not "help" or "mend relations"). Why should he reveal his plans in front of dozens of AS who might be Black Ajah for all he knows? If Egwene ends up looking like a fool at Merrilor, she's only got herself to blame.

 

No she's opposed because she doesn't want the world to end.

Rand breaking the remaining seals does not mean instant doom and destruction. The Bore was open for 100+ years in the AoL.

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I think they were going to do that anyway though. All she is doing is gathering the nations together for the last time to oppose the Dragon Reborn when he is off to fight the Dark One. Not exactly the smartest thing to do right before a war. " Hey your general is being an idiot! Help me stop him! ". Then try and turn it into some sort of positive.

 

But it is as many other have noted exactly what Rand wants her to do. He purposely refused to discuss the situation and antagonized her to get this reaction. Ta'veren influence was also likely at work. We just don't know why.

 

The point of my quote is it shows very clearly what Egwene's motivations are. Misguided are not AS believe their role is to shepherd humanity into the Last Battle. It is not as you imply in the above post some mysterious AS goal.

 

I very much agree with this. Egwene was played by Rand. His telling her that he planned to break the seals was done in the Hall of the Towers, in front of the Sitters. Egwene had no choice but to act strongly to this.

Had Rand met her privately and discussed the matter with her, explaining his reasons behind it and given her the chance to assess whether he's mad or not, her actions might have been different. With the information Egwene has, Rand has become / is both mad and ruthless.

Rand wants the armies of the Wetlands at FoM, Egwene is a tool of getting them there.

Just because Rand expected Egwene to do this dosesn't absolve Egwene of criticism. He expected her to betray him, and she did. He just took advantage of this by having enough foresight to see what she would do.

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But Egwene didn't give him that opportunity. She wouldn't even allow the meeting be Sealed to the Hall because "they need to see me confront him" (and note that it was confront, not "help" or "mend relations"). Why should he reveal his plans in front of dozens of AS who might be Black Ajah for all he knows? If Egwene ends up looking like a fool at Merrilor, she's only got herself to blame.

 

Are you being sarcastic? She gave him every opportunity.

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

"That is why I cam to you. To let you plan."

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry

 

Even people who dislike Egwene don't dispute that Rand did this on purpose to get this reaction. He went into the meeting knowing he would not tell her anything, period.

 

Just because Rand expected Egwene to do this dosesn't absolve Egwene of criticism. He expected her to betray him, and she did. He just took advantage of this by having enough foresight to see what she would do.

 

Questioning the actions of someone that could destroy the world, that up until shortly before was totally insane, is betraying him? :rolleyes:

 

Rand has no plan. By is own words he doesn't know how to seal the bore and he is hoping that Min finds a way. EVERYONE should be questioning him.

Edited by Suttree
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Guest PiotrekS

But Egwene didn't give him that opportunity. She wouldn't even allow the meeting be Sealed to the Hall because "they need to see me confront him" (and note that it was confront, not "help" or "mend relations"). Why should he reveal his plans in front of dozens of AS who might be Black Ajah for all he knows? If Egwene ends up looking like a fool at Merrilor, she's only got herself to blame.

 

Are you being sarcastic? She gave him every opportunity.

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

"That is why I cam to you. To let you plan."

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry

 

Even people who dislike Egwene don't dispute that Rand did this on purpose to get this reaction. He went into the meeting knowing he would not tell her anything, period.

 

That's true, his behaviour was disturbing. Why wouldn't he just meet with her in private, discuss things and agree on a common plan? Why did he feel the need to manipulate her? Is the mistrust still there?

Just because Rand expected Egwene to do this dosesn't absolve Egwene of criticism. He expected her to betray him, and she did. He just took advantage of this by having enough foresight to see what she would do.

 

Questioning the actions of someone that could destroy the world, that up until shortly before was totally insane, is betraying him? :rolleyes:

 

Rand has no plan. By is own words he doesn't know how to seal the bore and he is hoping that Min finds a way. EVERYONE should be questioning him.

 

Yes and no. Rand does not have all the anwers yet, but even so he has more answers than Egwene. There is really no comparison. For one, he knows how he sealed the Bore last time and what went wrong. He misses only the way to prevent the same problem from happening again. Hardly a minor thing, but Egwene would not be able to seal the Bore at all, even the way LTT did.

 

Rand did not explain enough to Egwene, but it is exaggeration to say he did not tell her anything. He succintly told her why the seals had to be broken ("clear the rubble") and that he understood the risk but thought it had to be taken anyway. The wisdom Egwene was able to provide afterwards was: "Breaking the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can defeat the DO without that risk". She had no way of knowing that. It sounds as though she did not think about it at all.

 

Even if Rand and Egwene behaved equally stupidly, I would still give more trust to Rand making the right decisions. Tailor-made talents and experience in this whole "sealing evil deities business" counts for something. I wouldn't pick Rand when dealing with TAR or the Aes Sedai politics, I wouldn't pick Egwene when confronting the DO.

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Even if Rand and Egwene behaved equally stupidly, I would still give more trust to Rand making the right decisions. Tailor-made talents and experience in this whole "sealing evil deities business" counts for something. I wouldn't pick Rand when dealing with TAR or the Aes Sedai politics, I wouldn't pick Egwene when confronting the DO.

 

Oh I agree, I just can't believe the people who say "how dare she question him?" and "she betrayed him" are so quick to forget how bad things got recently when Rand refused to listen to anyone. Should he just be some omnipotent tyrant that never has any of his actions questioned? We are talking about breaking the seals on the DOs prison.

 

Also note Rand says clearly that he can't do it the way he did last time. So I guess he knows what not to do.

 

ToM

I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

Unless there is some reason we don't know, it would have been far better to lay out his plan, put the groups together, give Min access to the greatest repository of knowledge in the world, and let an AS like Cadsuane(who already knew that tidbit Min discovered in the prophecies) help her out. Of course since it's WoT having people share info I guess would be asking too much. :biggrin:

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Is it at all possible that the meeting in front of everyone was

an act to let the Tower see that their Amyrlin was indeed strong

facing the DragonReborn like that?

Maybe Rand and Egwene have a thing going like Rand and Perrin?

He did tell her she had done her part.

Maybe she isn't playing into his hands and maybe they aren't at

war with each other.

Is it possible they are working together?

I think it is possible and I hope it happens.

I see no other way that I can EVER like Egwene the Amyrlin ,

(may she live forever with a splinter in her Amyrlin Seat!).

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Let's please remember that the people in the story haven't read the story. They haven't been able to see inside the heads of many dozens of POVs. There's a lot of things they don't know even about people close to them. They don't have vast archives of quotes from the author of the story and world they live in, and they all act and think as if this wasn't a fantasy novel written for them.

 

Rand has a reputation as being eccentric, if not outright insane. A moment of apparent lucidity does not a sane man make by any means. Let's also remember that there are more than one or two possibilities. Rand can fail in any number of ways. Rand can succeed in any number of ways. He could leave the world a place of happy rainbows and unicorns or he could leave it torn apart. He very nearly destroyed the world on his own. That was a real threat within the world, he wasn't destined to not do it. We've had it mentioned often enough that just because something is prophesied doesn't mean it has to happen, that Rand can fail at fulfilling the prophecies. Rand is not a god nor a demi-god. Rand has no plan as to what to do when he breaks the seals. He made no argument and has revealed to Min that he has none. Egwene has also had a prophetic dream that demonstrates this. Opposing the breaking of the seals when there is no plan as to what to do after they're broken is not wrong. Egwene does not need a different way of doing things, as Rand doesn't even have a way of doing things. He's stated that he is going to destroy the seals that limit the Dark One's ability to touch the world and he's got nothing beyond that. It is rational, common sense to oppose such things strongly, at least until a plan is established. Let's also remember that the Dragon is not infallible. His original plan to seal away the Dark One was horribly flawed. I give him credit for earning a brief reprieve, but it left the Dark One able to still touch the world, the Bore still in existence, saidin tainted, the world broken, civilization demolished and likely hundreds of millions, if not billions, of lives destroyed and killed. Let's not forget that he didn't even get to do his whole plan. If his plan was not unanimously opposed by the women Aes Sedai it would have left both saidin AND saidar tainted and the world in an even worse state. Therefore people saying that "Rand's the mother****ing Dragon who does Egwene think she is daring to oppose him she should just do what he says he's the one destined to save the world" have an in-world example of why that is NOT a good idea, as it would have left the world in a far worse state, both for the breaking and for when the Seals weakened and no sane channelers lived and nobody existed who could have hunted down mad men and women wielding deadly magic. Let's also remember that there was a prophecy stating that the world would be better off without the Dragon than with 'Dark Rand', and statements from Jordan pointing out that the world has gotten through this before without the Dragon or even with a Dragon turned to the Shadow. Let's remember that Rand isn't the only hope for the world, he's 'just' a Hero spun out and made ta'veren to make corrections to the weaving of the Pattern, he's a calculated tool/program put into the world by an incredible 'supercomputer'; that while he's incredibly valuable to the health of the world he's not 100% necessary, given statements by Jordan on past cycles.

 

Egwene is not in the wrong to oppose Rand's plan. It's a very brash decision and it's a gamble with no plan for after. Things may end up working out in his favor, but there's no guarantee of that for the people in this world, the Dragon is capable of costly mistakes and poor decisions in regards to the fate of the world and that opposition to his plans in the past has in fact kept it safer than it would have been if his plans had been carried out as he wished. There's only a month between his statement to Egwene and when he wants to break the seals. That's not a lot of time at all.

 

Now, as for whether or not Egwene is a horrible, dreadful person for not giving full disclosure is a question with no definitive answer, and different philosophers will likely give you different answers given the decisions she's facing.

Edited by Agitel
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I would much rather trust someone that the Creator himself, through the wheel, created to take care of the job of dealing with the Dark One. The Amrylin is not around to fight the Dark One himself. Nor are the Asha'man. Noone was created for the soul purpose to fight the Dark One except Rand. I think Rand/Lews Therin both had a very good idea on how to seal the bore completely but, as Lews Therin states, the women would not help him. He needs both Saidan and Saidar to do the job, but the first time around the women would not assist in the fight.

 

This time around, pretty much the same thing. Most of the Aes Sedai will be unable to trust him enough to assist, but he will get the assistance of Moraine and Nyneave for certain. Possibly even Elayne and Avi as well, who knows who will end up going with him into the lions den.

 

Instead of Ewgene spending all her time building support in her opposition she should have begun bringing all the Towers resources, the Brown Ajah in particular, together to try and figure out how to help Rand fight the Dark One. Instead, she wastes all that time and now NOONE has a single clue of what to do. They are ready to fight, but not ready to win. They expect Rand to be this counter to the Dark One himself, but when the rubber hits the road they oppose him when a decision is made on how exactly to do the countering.

 

It was channelers who created the whole mess in the first place. Digging too deep and opening a bore that was the DO himself/itself. The counter to that was the Creator making the Dragon, who was given the authority and power to seal up that Bore but in the meantime he would also become the wrath of the creator / wheel for humankind being so greedy with the power. To save the world, he will basically destroy the world and make it anew.

 

Something tells me at the end of the WoT the True Source will be completely cut off. Putting forward the age of the industry that Birgitte notices when she sees the " dragons ", aka cannons, at work for the first time. Avi sees our future / past as well in the future of the Aiel when the Seachan have the equivelant of rifles and jets/tanks, etc.

 

Anyway, Rand was created for a reason. He is the only one who will be able to get the job done. The first sign of a decision though, instead of assisting Ewgene opposes. Not exactly leadership material. She can atleast do some research to try and help.

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Say the Seanchan do attack Tear while the army is away. What does Egwene tell Darlin, when he confronts her with the fact that she told him that Tear was safe from them, and the fact that she failed to tell him the Seanchan probably had travelling?
She might say "it's a good job I got you and your army safely out of Tear before the Seanchan came - you couldn't have defended against that, and after TG the WT will assist you in freeing tear from Seanchan rule."

 

 

Not exactly the smartest thing to do right before a war. " Hey your general is being an idiot! Help me stop him! ". Then try and turn it into some sort of positive.
Well, letting your general make stupid decisions isn't very smart either.

 

 

Rand wants the armies of the Wetlands at FoM, Egwene is a tool of getting them there.
There's more to it than that - if he just wanted the armies, he could have asked the rulers to bring them, and asked Egwene to help bring them. Can the AS really afford to be left out of the planning for TG? No. Question is, why did Rand do things this way? Why does he want to be opposed at the FoM?
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