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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Caveatar

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  1. Dragon Reborn Ch 31 Woman of Tanchico “Rand is still well, then?” Thom’s eyes sharpened to almost the keenness Mat remembered. “I am not sure I expected that. Moiraine is still with him, is she? A finelooking woman. A fine woman, if she were not Aes Sedai. Meddle with that sort, and you get more than your fingers burned.” Towers of Midnight Thom getting Moiraine free So Mat stepped forward to pull Moiraine free. As soon as his hands touched the mist, however, he felt a blazing pain. He screamed, pulling back, shaking his hand. "It's bloody hot" Mat said. "It ― " He cut off as Thom stepped forward. "Thom . . ." Mat said warningly. "I don't care," the gleeman said. He stepped up to the mist, reaching in, his clothing beginning to steam, his eyes watering from the pain. He did not flinch. He dug into that mist and took hold of her, then pulled her free. Her weight sank into his arms, ... Later on... The old gleeman squeezed his eyes shut, holding Moiraine. He looked beaten, ground down to nothing. His hands were red and blistered from pulling her free, his coat sleeves burned. __________ Thom was right back in The Dragon Reborn and he sure got more than his fingers burned. This is one of my favorite foreshadowings in WoT. Caveatar
  2. Why that would be the horsefaced old bag Cadsuane of course. :D Caveatar EDIT: To rephrase the answer____ "What in the Name of God is a Cadsuane?"
  3. I'm glad someone else posted this. I was trying to find some myself and they are indeed scarce and hard to find. Fish I don't know if this is what you are looking for but it might be a good place to start even if it isn't. Or just google Theoryland and follow the links there. http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372 Caveatar
  4. I agree with your thinking here. The reason for thinking so follows. Even though Perrin interprets Dumai's Wells as MAYBE the first fulfillment of Min's viewing. At any rate his musing about her viewing at this point seems to be a clue that it is the place. A Crown of Swords Old Fear, and New Fear After Dumai's Wells and after Colavaere stripped of crown and nobility. Rand and Perrin talk. The following MAY be the first time that Perrin "had to be there or something bad would happen"--- If Rand had decided to chain or kill the Aes Sedai or make them prisoners then he would be doing what Moridin/Ishamael caused Artur Hawkwing to do to the Aes Sedai: enslave and chain them. If this was a ploy of the DarkOne then it would be a BAD thing for Rand to do it. Perrin arguing with Rand about it may be more of 'being there for Rand' than the Dumai's Wells rescue. Light knows that bad stuff had already happened to him in and out of the box and beating and so forth. _____________________________________________________ "I need to know," Rand said finally. "Are you still unwilling to command the army against Illian? I have to know now." . "I'm no general," Perrin said raggedly. There would be battles in Illian. Images flashed in his head. Men all around him, and the axe in his hands spinning, hewing his way through. Always more men, however many he cut down, in endless ranks. And in his heart, a seed growing. He could not face that again. He would not. "Besides, I thought I was supposed to stay close to you." That was what Min had said, from one of her viewings. Twice Perrin had to be there, or Rand would go down to disaster. Once had been Dumai's Wells, MAYBE, but there was still another to come. "We all must take risks." Rand's voice was very quiet. And very hard. Min peered around the doorframe again, looking as if she wanted to come to him, but she glanced at Faile and stayed outside. „ "Rand, the Aes Sedai...." A smart man would let this lie, probably. He had never claimed to be particularly smart, though. "The Wise Ones are ready to skin them alive, or near enough. You can't let them be harmed, Rand." In the corridor, Sulin turned to study him through the doorway. The man he thought he knew laughed, a wheezing sound. "We all-have to take risks," he repeated. "I won't let them be hurt, Rand." Cold blue eyes met his gaze. "You won't let it?" "I won't," Perrin told him levelly. He did not flinch from that stare, either. "They are prisoners, and no threat. They're women." "They are Aes Sedai." Rand's voice was so like Aram's back at Dumai's Wells that it nearly took Perrin's breath. "Rand—" "I do what I have to do, Perrin." For a moment he was the old Rand, not liking what was happening. For a moment he looked tired to death. A moment only. Then he was the new Rand again, hard enough to mark steel. THIS DECISION may be the time that something bad was prevented. "I won't harm any Aes Sedai who doesn't deserve it, Perrin. I can't promise more. Since you don't want the army, I can use you elsewhere. Just as well, really. I wish I could let you rest longer than a day or two, but I can't. There's no time. No time, and we must do what we must. Forgive me for interrupting you." _________________________________________________________________ I personally favor the above as being more likely than what Perrin did at Dumai's Wells. Caveatar
  5. They are if Gawyn can still get it up and HerHighandAmyrlinness deigns to allow it. I don't know how he can impregnate her while continually kissing her ass but who knows? and If Lan managed to start Nynaeve expanding before he left or if he survives TG and does that later. I know it is a simple typo but the mental image gave me a hell of a good laugh. THANKS, I needed that. Caveatar
  6. And the sky flashes multicolor flashes for a while and then in the sky appears: Play Again? Y/N
  7. And just hoping like hell to last long enough to read the last of WoT. :D :D One good thing about my memory, (which is like a ragged map, it is just a very rough guide to past events.), I forget some of those shameful things I did so I feel better about myself overall. I remember my first reading of Bram Stoker's 'Dracula' when I was six. (BTW I slept with the cover pulled up over my neck until I was twelve because of it. LOL) I sometimes have to reread parts of WoT to clarify things I read last week. I believe reading obituaries of friends has a damaging effect on memory. It seems like the more of them I read the worse my memory gets. Or maybe that is just a coincidence? Caveatar
  8. To quote Terry Pratchett of Discworld books misquoting the Old Testament: "The leopard does not change his shorts." ("Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)) I think that Lanfear is doing the same business at the same old stand. As was said of Asmodean: "He is still the same man he always was." Ingtar went to the shadow because he wanted to be on the winning side. Lanfear went to the shadow for power and control. Even if she does currently want the Dragon to free her and it is not some trap for him it isn't because she wants to return to the Light. So I don't really believe Lanfear will "change her shorts" as Pratchett says. JMO Caveatar
  9. I agree that is the simplest and best explanation of how it works/worked. But I wonder why the reduced lifespan of the Aes Sedai? Maybe Therava's Aes Sedai toy Galina will not have to spend a full 600 years of her servitude. (Personally I think she deserves it but that is just my opinion.) :D Caveatar I'm fairly certain Jordan has been quoted as saying that a single oath wouldn't affect lifespan as much. It's likely a side-effect of too many oaths, which affect the body physically and perhaps mentally too. Here you go... https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_61cqq85pf7&revision=_latest OKAY! That explains it. I thought I had read ALL of the RJ interviews but I missed that or my (72 years) old memory is just kicking in at failure mode. That does make sense. I suppose the "third oath cap" is similar to the "three time loser / habitual criminal" thing of the U.S. system. Thank you. Caveatar
  10. I agree that is the simplest and best explanation of how it works/worked. But I wonder why the reduced lifespan of the Aes Sedai? Maybe Therava's Aes Sedai toy Galina will not have to spend a full 600 years of her servitude. (Personally I think she deserves it but that is just my opinion.) :D Caveatar
  11. The Oath Rod was originally used for 'binding' criminals. The Oath Rod shortens the life of the channelers sworn on it. (Does it work on non-channelers?) Just what IS the original use of the thing? Just a guess, comparing to our age criminal justice system: Instead of a prison sentence in a cell for a stated length of time perhaps that length of lifespan was removed from the criminal's life expectancy. A six month jail term removing six months of life and reducing prison costs. Binder equivalent of the Three Oaths would be something like the following. Oath One: I swear to fully and truly confess all my crimes. (Criminal confesses all crimes.) Oath Two: I swear to fully and truthfully divulge information I have on any criminal activity by others. (Criminal rats out all others he/she knows about.) Oath Three: I swear to accept the legal prescribed life reduction sentence for all past and any future crimes including the same pain I caused others to suffer. (Convict automatically has lifespan reduced, suffers proportionate pain and feels the future tightening down on his hide like a tighter skin.) Secondary effects: Criminal starts returning things he/she hadn't even stolen. Criminal begins to apologize for every thing that has ever gone wrong from all previous ages. Criminal begins to tremble uncontrollably every time he/she even considers a crime in the future. (Causing bystanders/witnesses to point fingers and say "neener neener"). SO: seriously, How WOULD the danged thing have been used on criminals? Anyone? Caveatar
  12. Nor could Andrew Jackson according to his critics. President Jackson responded to one criticism with a choice answer: "We'll all I c'n say is I think it is a damn pore weak mind that cain't thank uv but one way to spell a word." Caveatar
  13. Tuon CHOOSES to not channel. Regular channelers, (Some of them) CHOOSE not to be Darkfriends. If 13-13 forcibly turning someone to the shadow is bad how is forcibly 'sparking' Tuon not bad? I don't think Moiraine will do that to Tuon. Not that she may not demonstrate to Tuon and the world that the Empress, (may she suffer a terminal wedgie) is not one bit different than all the collared subhuman Damane. Caveatar
  14. You might try re-reading in a different manner. The Wheel of Time re-read by Leigh Butler at Tor.com is one good way. While waiting for Towers of Midnight I read all available Dragonmount and Theoryland postings for the previous five years. Then I ran across the Tor.com WoT reread and read all of that. Leigh does chapter summaries and commentary which are then followed by several very knowledgeable people commenting. That was also very informative as well as very entertaining. I learned several things about the books from the differing viewpoints which I had not previously considered. I recommend it to ease the pain of withdrawal. :D Caveatar The Thirteenth Depository is also a great source for information and insight although lately hasn't had a lot of update or input from members.
  15. That is how it appears to be in my view. Apparently only the personality dies and is replaced with a different personality which develops with the newborn individual and depends on nurture to an extent. As Rand Sedai told Min; "This time I was raised better.". With a few special cases. The Heroes of the Horn appear to be such strong personalities that they are reserved for future recycling basically as themselves. Their characteristics seem to repeat in new lives. Same soul, same basic pattern of characteristics, new body, new lifeline until next recycling. Birgitte is not always Birgitte but appears to be often, if not always, to be a Bowshooting Babe and to be attracted to ugly men. (Or to be attracted to great looking men who everyone else thinks is ugly.) So a WoT death appears to be only death of personality, but as far as that matters to most people that is the same as being as dead as Pontius Pilate. Dead all over. For good. I may be the reborn soul of an Egyptian slave but THAT person is gone! So I guess death is death for Randlanders just like everybody else as far as that goes. I still think that RJ probably considered the idea of Nirvana and maybe Rand will achieve it just to give the poor bastard's soul a rest. The problem is that not only must 'enlightenment' be achieved, (Rand seems to have found that. :D ) but I think perfection or total purity of being has to be there too. I am pretty sure Rand Sedai/LTT isn't totally pure yet. Thanks for the replies. Caveatar
  16. It is my personal opinion that Callandor is just such a device as the cour'souvra and that Callandor will hold Rand's/LTT's soul at the first death. Regarding Healing Death. The many times mentioned idea that 'Nynaeve would not be happy until she had healed someone who was three days dead' always reminds me of Master Norry's almost joke to Elayne. In Winter's Heart, chap 9 'A Cup of Tea, quoted from Leigh Butler's reread... "....Norry has not asked which side of the split has Elayne’s allegiance, but he opines that it is “wise to be wary of Tar Valon’s anger.” Elayne is amazed at the stupidity of such a proclamation, since in her opinion no one could guide Rand “with a barge pole,” but Norry goes on to say that someone attacked the Sun Palace in Cairhien with the One Power, destroying most of the wing where Rand had his apartments, and Rand himself has vanished; many think that he has gone to submit to the White Tower, though a few think he is dead. He paused, head tilted in thought. “From what I saw of him, my Lady,” he said slowly, “I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.” She almost stared. That was very nearly a joke. A rough witticism, at least. From Halwin Norry!" Possibly old Norry will get to sit three days with Rand's corpse before Nynaeve heals him. If that happens in the book I will once again shake my head at the Robert Jordan foreshadowing of EVERYTHING! I also love Elane's opinion that "no one could guide Rand with a barge pole. :D Good insight Elayne.
  17. Everyone is born, has a soul which is installed in a body. Body dies. Soul returns to the grand pool of souls or whatever to be reborn again and again as the wheel turns. Wolves are also reborn and for all we know every living thing is recycled in this manner. Maybe not the cockroaches and fleas but who knows? To deal with just people then, no wolves or lower animals whatever. Some people are special in various ways. The Heroes (of the Horn) are a special group. Members of this group hang out in Tel'Aran'Rhiod and live a ghostly life in between being spun out for some special use. (I hope they are 'spun out' by the Wheel Spinning and not by some channeler spinning their 'one power' webs using soulstuff as the active material, although that would probably be 'active IMmaterial.) These Heroes can hang out in a kind of life while awaiting rebirth. They communicate with each other, are aware of what is going on and several other things which indicate they are living a kind of life. Souls can exist independent of a flesh body and apparently bodies can continue to live a sort of life without an inhabiting soul. The ghosts of dead people (their souls) are seen walking about in the physical world as the pattern breaks down. Even Ogier ghosts show up. The smiths at Thakandar working on the swords for the Fades seemingly absorb the soul of their victim into the blade to complete the process of making one of those blueflashing swords. The Ogier who was out of the stedding too long was a walking body but the testimony was that the body was empty of any soul/person. The D.O. can grab a soul at or near the moment of death and if a suitable body is available for it the soul can be resurrected into the new body. Grey Men give up their souls to the D.O. and walk around in a soul-less body. Draghkar kill their victims by "absorbing the soul before killing the body". Moridin has the souls, or portions of them, of some of the chosen in the cor'souvra cages he carries. In the special case of Luc/Slayer, there appears to be two souls inhabiting a single body but that single body morphs between two bodies also. Very confusing. Kind of like a time-sharing occupancy of a changing building. In the case of Noam/Boundless it seems that a wolf soul and a human soul got mixed up/blended into one body. It would appear that in the WoT universe there IS the Ghost in the Machine model of life, As per Gilbert Ryle's description of René Descartes' mind-body dualism. Either soul or body can be alive without the other at least for a time or under special circumstances. It also seems that if the soul shows up in T'A'R and if it is killed there then it has died the final death. There is some confusion on this due to statements by R.J. and other folks comments on his statements. If one is in T'A'R in the FLESH and killed there then supposedly both soul and body die the permament death. (That is, there will be no rebirth ever. May be.) So then death in the WoT is not like what I for one have considered it to be. There does seem to be a general consensus in-universe that a body without a soul is 'dead' and a soul without a body is 'dead' even though the souls continue to exist somewhere in some state and the bodies can continue to move around as though they were alive in some cases. In the case of Birgitte it seems that Moghedien used the power of T'A'R possibly mixed with the TP to give the Hero Soul of Birgitte a physical body and to rip the combination out of T'A'R into the 'real' world near Nynaeve who was dreaming herself in T'A'R nearby Moggie and Birgitte. Moggie's work wasn't all that good because the InstaBody couldn't hold the soul anchored or the soul couldn't stay in the body until Elayne bonded it, giving it more strength. [i often wonder what would have happened if Elayne had not bonded the dying Birgitte and simply let her die and return to T'A'R where she has been hanging out between incarnations for ages. Unless being spiritually in the flesh world is like being flesh in the spirit world (in T'A'R in the flesh) and one loses part of oneself there and Birgitte would have died permanently. However Moggie's intent was to make Birgitte lose synchronization with Gaidal Cain and so be separate from him forever. (Kinda like "LadyHawke" separation of lovers.)] If anyone could/would explain clearly how death and souls and bodies and transmigration and reincarnation and stuff works in WoT I would be grateful. ****************************** Now then. The "Twice and twice......"prophecy about the DR. "Twice to live and twice to die." I much fear me that it means that Our Hero's body will die,(be replaced and die again), and that his soul will die permanently! I am afraid that LTT/Rand the CotL will end up with what Moridin wants for himself. To be out of the cycle FOREVER. That his particular soul will achieve Nirvana. (And Moridon's soul wont achieve it.) To return to the grand source of Life to nevermore be differentiated from it. That in the same way the works of a balefired individual are undone but the memory of that individual's works remains with the observers, that the Suffering Soul of the Champion of the Light will be reabsorbed into the Source of All Life and for the surviving observers leave only... A Memory of Light Any counterpoint, refutations and contrariwise comments welcomed. Caveatar
  18. In what possible universe would an Egwene hater be annoyed with Egwene's death no matter the circumstances? If Egwene's death occured after 900 years of uninterrupted rule over all of the post-Tarmon Gaidan world. Even worse if that rule was because all the world idolized her because everyone thought that SHE had defeated the Dark One, cleansed the taint, sealed the Bore, discovered how to heal stilling and invented sliced bread. That would annoy the hell out of me and I am not a 'hater'. So , Egwene haters: Wouldn't that long delayed death annoy the hell out of you?
  19. Towers of Midnight page 223 After Nynaeve has healed Naeff of his taint madness by extracting the 'barbs; of the taint sticking in Naeff's brain, she delved Rand. "She Delved, staying away from the wounds at his side, which were pits of darkness that seemed to try to suck in her energy. She kept her attention on his mind. Where was the— She stiffened. The darkness was enormous, covering the entirety of his mind. Thousands upon thousands of the tiny black thorns pricked into his brain, but beneath them was a brilliant white lacing of something. A white radiance, like liquid Power. Light given form and life. She gasped. It coated each of the dark tines, driving into his mind alongside them. What did it mean? She didn't have any idea how to begin working on this. There were so many barbs. How could he even think with that much darkness pressing against his brain? And what had created the whiteness? " OOPS! Powder was not correct. Liquid Power is how Nynaeve described it. I misremembered it as 'powder' instead of 'power' but the idea remains that whatever it is insulates the brain from the black taint covering his mind and apparently can buffer the brain from being touched by the D.O. Taint. Perhaps it could be used to touch the D.O. so Saidar/Saidin wont touch him and cause both halves of the Power to be Tainted again. Caveatar
  20. Hmmmmm. Well in that case. I will add in my own comment by hand on the last page after the end. "I have spent from my 51st birthday until well after my 72nd birthday reading, rereading, speculating on WTH is going on? How will it turn out? Will my personal wheel spin long enough for me to read the final book? I love your writing J.O.R./Robert Jordan but damn! That is A LOT OF TIME!"
  21. I read somewhere that team Jordan said/hinted/implied that the final word of the book was either 'light' or 'time'. It could be something as prosaic as "The End of the Last Book of the Wheel of Time." I hope not. My hopes are for something like the following. ------------ Rand has died his second death, the pattern is whole and Rand's Ladies are together and having a conversation. Aviendha: "The Car'a'carn has saved the world. Even though he has awakened from the dream we have what he saved for us. I have my children and the Aiel to care for and guide past disaster." Elayne: "And I have our children and Andor. Even though I said I wouldn't accept the throne from him I know that without his actions I would not be Queen of Andor if indeed Andor still existed at all. " Avi and Elayne look to Min who has been silent. Elayne: "Min I am sorry." Min: "Sorry for me? Why?" Elayne: Aviendha and I have his children and our respective people to occupy us through the long years to come but what do you have?" Min: "For as long as memory survives I will have enough, something very precious." Avi and Elayne: "What is that Min?" Min: "I will have the memory of him...A memory of Light." ------------------------- Does anyone else have any ideas about it?
  22. I really like the "...buffer between the Dark One and the seal it held." notion, Mbuehner. Not ONLY seven focal points but seven layers of protection with the Eye protecting the last one? If the seals were cascaded, one on top of the other... Access to first seal blocked by the second seal... Second seal protected by the third... Third protected by fourth...... Seventh seal must be broken before next can be accessed to be broken... and The Eye of the World protecting the seventh one. So in order to begin the breaking the Eye must be drained. First it must be found...enter Green Man and the changing location of the Eye. So to break seals... Find the nearly impossible to locate Eye of the World. Get past the Green Man. Drain the Eye. Get the Seventh Seal. Break it someway other than with a force that strengthens it.... Free up access to next seal... et cetera.. So the Eye was to prevent anyone other than the Dragon Reborn from breaking the seals? He and only he could begin the breaking of the seals and reweave the pattern over the bore? They must be broken but if broken too early the D.O. escapes with the Dragon Reborn unavailable. Mbuehner, I like it even if it proves to be incorrect.
  23. Thom: Mat. I want to make a wager with you. Mat: Now Thom, you should know my luck by now. Thom: Yes I do. I still want to bet with you. Mat: Ok. Name the bet and the stakes. Thom: I want your stake to be that bloody good hat of yours. Mat: Then your stake will have to be that twangy harp of yours. Thom: HUMPH! Well, you recall when we first met in the Two Rivers. Mat: Sure Thom. I'm not senile yet like...uh...Yeah. I remember. Thom: When we rode out there were Moiraine and Lan, Egwene, you, Perrin and Rand and me. Then Nynaeve met up with us later. Mat: Yep. We met Loial too. What about it. Don't forget Bela was with us. Thom: Well, Moiraine and I, Lan and Nynaeve, Egwene, you three boys Loial and I guess Min too, have been through a LOT in the last couple of years. I must say I have grown fond of all of you. The Bet is about all of us. Yes, and Bela too. Mat: I get it Thom. I will take your bet and WIN it too! Name it. Thom: Mat, I bet you, harp to hat, that not every one of that group will survive the Final Battle and the Sealing of the Bore. Mat: You are ON old man and you can sing about my winning the bet when it is all over. Thom: DONE! Mat : DONE! They spit in their palms and shake hands. Moiraine smiled. For a man who couldn't channel Thom could do very well for himself and others. He had just made several people's futures as secure as they could be with the world as it was. I hope this imaginary bet is won by Mat. Caveatar
  24. Maybe Laras the once upon a time 'lively girl'. Laras has confused me with her actions/motivations. Maybe she was assisting Verin in searching out DF Aes Sedai. Verin did tell her to 'keep looking' when she said she 'hadn't found anything yet'.
  25. I can't locate the original posts about the "_____(blank) in the blight" nor the one where Brandon used a fan name in the book to name a city in the blight. Can anyone tell me if the City is the BLANK? Caveatar
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